Multiclassing

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Amineh123
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Amineh123 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:22 pm

Yeah but probably it's the skill dump that's an issue. If you gather a lot of skill points just to put them all into f.e. discipline in your epics, well that's simply weird. You're a master wizard but feeble like a leaf then overnight, taking dump in discipline with proper class, you can take a bull on.
That smells fishy.

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sad_zav
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by sad_zav » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:12 pm

I agree

Let's remove skill dumps so every caster goes from 60 discipline to 35 because they have to CC it and as such can't esf it

Also, every loses spellcraft and 3 AC via tumble

If dipping got removed then literally everyone would only play bards
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Amineh123 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:31 pm

I'm just saying, most people here defend skill dumps because you can RP it - and I don't agree, skill dumps are not RPed correctly and used in a RP way - they are only done because mechanically it's possible, and you need them to powerbuild your character, simple as that.
I'm didn't say that it should be removed, it's just how this games work, and honestly I don't think it's even possible.

Just don't BS people that skilldumping thus classdipping is not for powerbuilding and is properly RPed. It is possible in PnP, not NWN.

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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:43 pm

I find that insulting because I RP my skill dumps, it's a core aspect of my character. My character even went out and found a trainer to learn how to do it.

Just because people powerbuild doesn't mean that everyone does behaviour X or Y that you don't approve of.

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Re: Multiclassing

Post by magistrasa » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:59 pm

I have a character I'm playing that is paranoid and adverse to attention and wishes to move around without being seen. But she's a wizard, and thus can't take stealth. So, what am I to do but crossclass for a skill dump in stealth? Do you want me to gimp my playstyle by taking a bunch of ranger/rogue/whatever levels interspersed between wizard levels to keep up the appearance of gradual skill progression, destroying my spellcasting abilities when spellcasting is this character's primary in character focus? Or am I just not supposed to RP certain aspects of a character's personality and interests just because they're not skills my main class offers? Get the heck outta here, man.

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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Dirac » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:44 pm

My jimmies are rustled in some infinitesimal way...

Amineh123
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Amineh123 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:48 pm

Allright.
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:43 pm
I find that insulting because I RP my skill dumps, it's a core aspect of my character. My character even went out and found a trainer to learn how to do it.
I don't know what character do you play, which is not important by the way, but just for example:
You're a wizard that takes discipline dump. Of course I may be wrong, but here's how I see it:
You took the dump skill, took a bunch of skill points in discipline several levels worth. Now want to RP it properly by looking for a trainer. Found him. Trained for some time, decided it's ok now to say you're really good at it.
Now if your 'training time' was pretty much similar to your overall playtime as this character until skilldump moment - kudos to your RP, I respect that. If it was much shorter? Than you took an easy way, and your RP (in that one situation of course) is just... meh.
Second thing, you took the dump but... I doubt you divided your skill point into at least 3 parts (for a 3 lvl dump) to make it at least feel a little bit progress - you, mechanically, became really good at some skill 'overnight'. Even if you RP it 'proper' way, for a really long time, a low level character or monster cannot stand a chance against your skill, because it's impossible. Even if they took way more time into training said skill. That's why I say it's impossible to do it in NWN 'properly'. And for those who want to say that 10lvl character cannot beat 30lvl character - a 10 lvl rogue should be better at rogue stuff, than a 27/3 something rogue should ever be.
I don't know how you did that, I don't judge. Also it's my point of view, and you can really just not care at all what I think. This game and setting allows you to do so, do whatever you want.

*takes a breath*
magistrasa wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:59 pm
I have a character I'm playing that is paranoid and adverse to attention and wishes to move around without being seen. But she's a wizard, and thus can't take stealth. So, what am I to do but crossclass for a skill dump in stealth? Do you want me to gimp my playstyle by taking a bunch of ranger/rogue/whatever levels interspersed between wizard levels to keep up the appearance of gradual skill progression, destroying my spellcasting abilities when spellcasting is this character's primary in character focus? Or am I just not supposed to RP certain aspects of a character's personality and interests just because they're not skills my main class offers? Get the heck outta here, man.
Just because your character is an introvert, it does not mean it should be a master in disguise or one with the shadow. If his/her whole life is focused around learning magic, I doubt he/she has the time to train proper silent movement or timing or knowing how to blend with environment. He/she just don't like people around, from what I understand.
Now you just confirmed my statement - you took dip class to upgrade your character, not to RP it's behaviour. That's why crossclass is available too anyone - because you're not supposed to be great at not-really-your-thing.
And I don't want you to play any style, it's your character, your game, play it as you like, as long it's along with the rules, don't get me wrong.

I just feel, and I think I'm allowed to feel, that skilldumping is just for mechanical power, not RP, and people that say otherwise are fooling themselves, or try to fool others. Because if you want to be sneaky, be sneaky. If you want to be master of shadow, earn it.

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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Queen Titania » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:07 pm

Moved this to Feedback.

Let's stay nice. I'll be watching this thread and deleting any unnecessary remarks, and have sent a warning already. Let's be polite and constructive.
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Invader_Nym » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:05 pm

sad_zav wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:12 pm
I agree

Let's remove skill dumps so every caster goes from 60 discipline to 35 because they have to CC it and as such can't esf it

Also, every loses spellcraft and 3 AC via tumble

If dipping got removed then literally everyone would only play bards
Skill dumps are a massive balance flaw that will never get rectified because people like their munchkin builds more than they like a nice balance between the classes; trying to get people to support an argument against their own immediate self-interest is a difficult battle to win.

My take is discipline is a silly NWN affectation that ruins everything for everyone, which is more or less true of skill-dumps as well.

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sad_zav
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by sad_zav » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:15 pm

Balance on this server is getting increasingly improved, and that's with skill dumps in mind. balance is actually done -around- the best builds

and nothing is ruining everything for everyone. it was your choice to play a character that can get knocked down easier, or not resist spells, or not tumble out of the way of an attack
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Sockss » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:45 pm

I think these are reasonable assumptions:

> Your character doesn't know anything about rolls, abilities, levels, skill points, skill caps and skill checks.
> Getting better at something mimics RL. Characters therefore have different natural talent and abilities, they learn at different speeds.
> Your character isn't attached to every other PC 24/7, so you don't know what they do.
> Magic exists.

Why is it bad for RP that a mage can't be knocked down, or a paladin can open locks? This can be explained so many ways, it's completely obtuse to argue otherwise.

Your character doesn't know the reasons why he didn't knock a mage down, only that he didn't. Did he mess up? Did the mage use some crazy spell? Did a deity intervene?

So, if you're still with me this far, skill dumping is not limiting RP. It might be that instead, you are. The only poor RP is the failure to accept what is literally occurring in front of your character.

What it sounds like is you have a mechanical issue with skill dumping. Which is fine. You can have that stance. Though it's particularly weak to argue mechanical points with RP points (especially when there's no point there).

I'd also disagree with skill dumping being flawed, it betrays a big mechanical ignorance. While it is in no way impossible to balance around a system in which skill dumping isn't allowed, Arelith hasn't been. It'd be a significant amount of work, as well as a server wipe, to change it, for no gain - something that isn't going to happen.
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Invader_Nym
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Invader_Nym » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:53 pm

sad_zav wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:15 pm
Balance on this server is getting increasingly improved, and that's with skill dumps in mind. balance is actually done -around- the best builds

and nothing is ruining everything for everyone. it was your choice to play a character that can get knocked down easier, or not resist spells, or not tumble out of the way of an attack
I agree that balance is improving, I also think the developers and builders and staff are doing great. The game is popular for a reason. I can't think of an elegant solution to the problem of skill dumping other than to nerf it, however.

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sad_zav
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by sad_zav » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:55 pm

but how is it a problem
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Invader_Nym » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:56 pm

sad_zav wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:55 pm
but how is it a problem
It's not a problem if you want cheap access to crazy buffs. We might as well give fighters level 9 spells for a dip of 3 levels into wizard. People are able to scoop up epic advantages from other classes without paying the cost of going deep into those classes.

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sad_zav
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by sad_zav » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:06 pm

a rogue dip doesn't give them their special feats and all their sneak attacks

a ranger dip doesn't give them all their bonus feats and ac bonuses or HiPs

a bard dip doesn't give a bard song worth the round it takes to cast

fighter dips are good--at four levels you get weapon specs, but none of the bonus AC and soft stats higher levels give

this isn't the slippery slope you're making it out to be
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Ork » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:00 am

the virgin skilldumper could never compete with the chad pureclasser.

thanks, this thread, for reminding me.

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Re: Multiclassing

Post by godhand- » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:42 am

I'd like to quote the arelith wiki.....
Players can call profession of their character in any way they like. Fighter can be brawler, duelist, swordsman, guard, and so on. Other characters will react on those claims in character, so if a character claims to be duelist and wizard of level 5 can win over him without spells and weapons, then others will laugh at the "duelist" character "in character".

It is even possible to roleplay a fighter without having a single level of fighter, for example Rogue/Ranger. Or Harper Scout without having the class levels.

What is not allowed is to include titles in in names on characters on creation.

As well, some classes are expected to be roleplayed within certain parameters. Paladins, for example, are expected to be divine warriors striving for good at the service of some god. Wizards are expected to carry a spellbook. Clerics are expected behave as their god would want them to, and so on. This doesn't mean that all characters of the same class are identical, or have to roleplay the same, but they tend to share the same thematic.
Basically, You are not your class. Your class is a mechanical representation of character you play/create. I'm playing a dwarven defender right now, i'd call him a stalwart warrior. not a DD/Fighter/Bard
how do i RP the bard part? Not by my -4 charisma songs.... but by having an understanding of basic magics for the purpose of runecrafting.
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by flower » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:17 pm

New editions of dnd which forbid dipping have a feature you are leaving out from some reason.

You can multiclass at any time and since you select a class her skills become your class skills regardless how many lvls you put into Nd you can increase it at any level.

So wizard selects fighter on level two and any level can increase his discipline (example this skill exists only in nwn) up to lvl skill cap. So yes 29/1 w/f can have same discipline like our 27/3(bard).

Another thing you are talking of is balance. Nwn was designed originally for 20 lvls. Up to 20 lvls it is balanced system.

21-40 was added in data disks.

And, yes nwn was designed to be based on multiclassing. On dipping. People were expected to take 1sd for hips and etc. Some classes were meant only as an addition like fighter. Fighter was never intended to be stand alone class. What do you complain about then? You chose to play game which was designed this way in first place and where skill dips allow balance between builds (allow for counter measures).


If you don't like it then perhaps you just picked wrong game for yourself?

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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Alantar » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:03 pm

As far as I know, NwN is based on D&D 3.0. I'm not in favour nor against the skill dump, but I know that, in D&D 3.0 of 3.5 (I haven't played the 4th or the 5th editions) you are not "supposed" (to say the least) to acquire 30 ranks in a skill 'overnight'.

The reason of the dump? Balance between classes, which is pretty good in Arelith, IMHO. Do I like to watch Bob the warrior casting Time Stops or John the mage with 60+ discipline? No, but if this contributes to create a better balance between classes, I can live with it.

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Re: Multiclassing

Post by The Kriv » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:17 pm

Alantar wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:03 pm
As far as I know, NwN is based on D&D 3.0. I'm not in favour nor against the skill dump, but I know that, in D&D 3.0 of 3.5 (I haven't played the 4th or the 5th editions) you are not "supposed" (to say the least) to acquire 30 ranks in a skill 'overnight'.

The reason of the dump? Balance between classes, which is pretty good in Arelith, IMHO. Do I like to watch Bob the warrior casting Time Stops or John the mage with 60+ discipline? No, but if this contributes to create a better balance between classes, I can live with it.
I hold the unpopular view that skill dumping breaks the game. I've never really been able to make my peace with it. In my heart I wish NWN was more like "Temple of Elemental Evil" in this regard. (oh, and Trip... I wish we had true trip rules, and not that hybrid broken "knockdown" crud... but that's another 'wish' thread. *winky winky* )

I am one of the D&D purists who were drawn to NWN originally because it marketed itself as "true D&D on a computer" -which they totally got right a lot of aspects adding the role of a DM in the mix. But not making you 'use' all your available skill points up at level up is broken (IMO).

I know folk disagree because "that's the way they coded NWN, and it would break my build if it changed" but... Skill Dumping is one huge contributing factor to why the classes keep getting tinkered with to dial them in.

D&D is supposed to be more Rock-Paper-Scissors game. What we play is Rock-Rock-Scissors.
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by flower » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:04 pm

The Kriv wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:17 pm
Alantar wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:03 pm
As far as I know, NwN is based on D&D 3.0. I'm not in favour nor against the skill dump, but I know that, in D&D 3.0 of 3.5 (I haven't played the 4th or the 5th editions) you are not "supposed" (to say the least) to acquire 30 ranks in a skill 'overnight'.

The reason of the dump? Balance between classes, which is pretty good in Arelith, IMHO. Do I like to watch Bob the warrior casting Time Stops or John the mage with 60+ discipline? No, but if this contributes to create a better balance between classes, I can live with it.
I hold the unpopular view that skill dumping breaks the game. I've never really been able to make my peace with it. In my heart I wish NWN was more like "Temple of Elemental Evil" in this regard. (oh, and Trip... I wish we had true trip rules, and not that hybrid broken "knockdown" crud... but that's another 'wish' thread. *winky winky* )

I am one of the D&D purists who were drawn to NWN originally because it marketed itself as "true D&D on a computer" -which they totally got right a lot of aspects adding the role of a DM in the mix. But not making you 'use' all your available skill points up at level up is broken (IMO).

I know folk disagree because "that's the way they coded NWN, and it would break my build if it changed" but... Skill Dumping is one huge contributing factor to why the classes keep getting tinkered with to dial them in.

D&D is supposed to be more Rock-Paper-Scissors game. What we play is Rock-Rock-Scissors.
How big fun would it be going to be for you if you were a meeler, without sklil dumped UMD, watching mr Mage to put up acid sheath doing you 40dmg on each hit, having DR because you cant use GMW Scroll and the only thing you could ever do would be to run? How many people would play on such server and have fun? How many people would be playing warriors?

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Re: Multiclassing

Post by The Kriv » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:50 pm

flower wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:04 pm
How big fun would it be going to be for you if you were a meeler, without sklil dumped UMD, watching mr Mage to put up acid sheath doing you 40dmg on each hit, having DR because you cant use GMW Scroll and the only thing you could ever do would be to run? How many people would play on such server and have fun? How many people would be playing warriors?
On the flip side... every melee character would know that not a single epic mage would have the discipline to resist being knocked down.

Besides, Isn't this supposed to be an RP server? Isn't it the RP that people come to Arelith for?
Ultimately, is it the ability to get 15-30 UMD skill on your melee character THE reason you play NWN? or do you play NWN because it is a great RP outlet?

If skill-dumps were removed, it wouldn't be because folk are trying to be jerks... it would be because skill dumping really never should have been a thing in the first place IF the game were closer to D&D. It was an oversight (one of the many) that the original coders of the game introduced.

I can't say this for certain, but I feel fairly confident the original game designers didn't sit in their concept meetings discussing how they didn't like that you can't skill-dump in regular D&D, and for gosh sakes they were going to fix that in their NWN interpretation. No. The designers set forth to the programmers the concept of skill points, and skill dumping was an unintended consequence.

Look at Temple of Elemental Evil, for example. A much truer 3.5 D&D rules game. They got it right. NWN got it wrong. -and ToEE is hella-fun.

We're all just used to it and we view skill dumping as the norm. It's not. Skill dumping is the distorted mutation that we have internalized as the standard.



Would mage-builds be powerful if skill dumping were disabled? Oh Yes.
Would they be invincible? Hell no.

You make it sound like Melee builds would go away. They wouldn't. They would serve a more traditional role.
Mr. Mage would have a lot harder time as a solo entity with no Discipline and no Tumble AC. Their vulnerabilities would open up in different areas.

Paper beats rock. Rock beats scissors. Scissors beats paper.

Don't say it wouldn't be fun. It would be fun. Because RP'ing is fun. And we would be RP'ing. It would just be a different kind of fun.
Last edited by The Kriv on Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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sad_zav
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by sad_zav » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:21 pm

implying rp isn't happening already

y'all realize class dips and quality RP aren't mutually exclusive right

and i'll actually argue that no, it wouldn't be fun if dips were taken away. like i said, everyone would just play bards.

are you not having fun because of dips? if so, i recommend a different game because they're not going away
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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Nitro » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:32 pm

The Kriv wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:50 pm
On the flip side... every melee character would know that not a single epic mage would have the discipline to resist being knocked down.
Actually, no. A wizard would be among the least affected classes. If we presume a level 27 wizard with 26 INT making a 3 level dump for discipline, their 10 skill points per level still let them reach 30 (33 if human or with higher INT) discipline without a need to have saved up skill point amount to dump into it.

The builds that are hurt the most by this are mundane characters by a long shot, and to an extent divine casters. Because now we suddenly have a situation where we take away most of the tools a mundane has to deal with a caster while removing next to nothing from the wizard.

It's not rock paper scissors, it's gun rock paper broken-scissors.

Secondly, the amount of work required to rebalance the whole server, every single dungeon, class and equipment, just for an experience closer to P&P rules is ludicrous. Literally thousands of hours to make a change from a currently semi-balanced system to a less balanced system that is more 'authentic'.
Besides, Isn't this supposed to be an RP server? It's it the RP that people come to Arelith for?
Ultimately, is it the ability to get 15-30 UMD skill on your melee character THE reason you play NWN? or do you play NWN because it is a great RP outlet?
This is pretty conceited, wanting to have a non-awful build does not equate to wanting RP any less than someone who makes the deliberate choice to have an awful build for their RP. No one is here just to get UMD, but building a powerful and mechanically sound character is just as much part of D&D as roleplaying is. Different people have different tastes, and none of them are the 'wrong' way to play the game.
Don't say it wouldn't be fun. It would be fun. Because RP'ing is fun. And we would be RP'ing. It would just be a different kind of fun.
I'll turn that right around to you. If you're here to RP and RP is fun, why aren't you OK with the current different kind of fun?

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Re: Multiclassing

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:49 pm

To expand on Nitro's point, getting rid of skill dumping wouldn't change much for wizards or even for rogue dips.

The main point of the rogue dip is Tumble 30, UMD 10-15. A typical character on Arelith has 14 int, so in 3 rogue levels, gets 30 skill points, or 33 if human. That's enough to take 20 tumble and 10 UMD. This means that, without skill dumps, a player might instead take 4 levels of rogue to get 25-30 tumble and 10-15 UMD. That is all that removing skill dumping would change for rogue dips.

Bard dips, however, would effectively vanish, except for in wizard builds, as they have enough of an Int bonus that a 4 level dip (which already exists in the cookie-cutter vanilla wizard) would still be enough to get 15 UMD & 33 discipline.

Clerics and non-dip rogues would be hit the hardest, I think. Clerics would likely end up taking something like 4 ranger/3 bard to get UMD/discipline. War domain Cha-Battleclerics would be more popular, since they'd need fewer points into UMD to hit the 15 point mark. Rogues would be in big trouble. Ranger would, again probably replace fighter as their dip of choice for discipline.

My main point is that going from completely untrained in a skill to masterful in that skill in 3 levels can be done even without skill dumps. Classes with higher base skill points would become more popular for dips, and you might see the Int gift chosen over the Con gift, but getting rid of skill dumps does not make dipping into classes for skills go away, it just make people re-do the math to figure out the most effective way to accomplish it.
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