Multiclassing

[The Kriv]

are you not having fun because of dips? if so, i recommend a different game because they're not going away

Clarification: Sorry, didn't say that, and didn't mean to imply that. My apologize if that was your interpretation of what I wrote.

...the amount of work required to rebalance the whole server, every single dungeon, class and equipment, just for an experience closer to P&P rules is ludicrous. Literally thousands of hours to make a change from a currently semi-balanced system to a less balanced system that is more 'authentic'.

Clarification: Never made the suggestion arelith ought change. What I wrote was that should something like that happen, the decision to do it wouldn't be made from the standpoint of being a jerk, but from good intent. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions, I guess.

Didn't suggest we should do it. My apologies you misinterpreted what I wrote.

Besides, Isn't this supposed to be an RP server? It's it the RP that people come to Arelith for?
Ultimately, is it the ability to get 15-30 UMD skill on your melee character THE reason you play NWN? or do you play NWN because it is a great RP outlet?

This is pretty conceited, wanting to have a non-awful build does not equate to wanting RP any less than someone who makes the deliberate choice to have an awful build for their RP. No one is here just to get UMD, but building a powerful and mechanically sound character is just as much part of D&D as roleplaying is. Different people have different tastes, and none of them are the 'wrong' way to play the game.

We are in agreement. As I wrote above, that the skill dump isn't the reason to play. Sorry, you thought it was conceited.

Don't say it wouldn't be fun. It would be fun. Because RP'ing is fun. And we would be RP'ing. It would just be a different kind of fun.

I'll turn that right around to you. If you're here to RP and RP is fun, why aren't you OK with the current different kind of fun?

I didn't say I wasn't okay with a different kind of fun. I just said I personally never have made peace with the skill dump. As I would personally prefer it another way. But that doesn't altogether deter me from playing at all. I like pizza. and I prefer pepperoni. But if mushroom is all that is available, I'm not going to NOT eat the pizza just because it's mushroom and I can't have pepperoni.

(yes it all comes down to pizza.)

as stated above... my opinion is unpopular. as is apparently the case with posting unpopular opinions, I should have expected reactions and misinterpretations. I didn't mean to make ripples in the discussion. Sorry. Please ignore my comments and return to the topic at hand.

Sorry for the derail, yall.

[sad_zav]

misinterpretations often happen when things aren't articulated correctly, yeah

you're forgiven

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I'm just saying, most people here defend skill dumps because you can RP it - and I don't agree, skill dumps are not RPed correctly and used in a RP way - they are only done because mechanically it's possible, and you need them to powerbuild your character, simple as that.
I'm didn't say that it should be removed, it's just how this games work, and honestly I don't think it's even possible.

Just don't BS people that skilldumping thus classdipping is not for powerbuilding and is properly RPed. It is possible in PnP, not NWN.

I defend skill dumps because mechanically except in extreme cases they don't really give you any advantage over your PnP building counter-part... and of all the perceived advantages that NWN has over PnP, if this one bothers people I'm surprised there isn't a howling horde over the fact that 11 items with +1 strength on them are supposed to give you +1 strength, not +11.

There's also a PnP feat that isn't in NWN that makes any skills that are a class skill for one of your class levels class skills for ALL of your class levels.

A rogue gets 8+int mod skill points. For most humans, at first level this translates to 44 starting skill points. But more importantly, at 14 intelligence (why you would have less on a rogue is beyond me) this is 11 skill points per level.

In PnP outside of house rules you can take levels whenever you like. If we make our sample PnP situation match the 3 level minimum, this is enough to dump 33 points into a skill of choice using all 11 skill points per each rogue level-up. This makes, say, a tumble /umd "dump" a completely viable PnP tactic by level 30 even without the "special" feat.

NWN allowing skill dumps simply prevented players from all having to pick the same skill-based feat in every high level build (I think the Feat is called cosmopolitan or jack of all trades or something along the lines). Because when you plan to hit level 20+ with more than one class it's dumb not to invest in the feat even if (ESPECIALLY IF) you only get 2 skill points for most of your levels.

Claiming it's not possible to RP something because you don't agree with the way it's built seems a bit... heavy-handed, besides which.

Edit: Also important to this discussion- in PnP, the skills aren't locked behind specific classes. Any class should be able to take UMD without incorporating rogue or bard into their build.

[Alantar]

[/quote]D&D is supposed to be more Rock-Paper-Scissors game. What we play is Rock-Rock-Scissors.
[/quote]

I disagree, in D&D 3.0 or vanilla NwN, if we talk exclusively about pure classes, the casters (Wizards, sorcerers, clerics) are the scissors, the rock and the paper, all together.

And I know it doesn't matter, but I play a pure Wizard here, so I don't want to see the class even more nerfed, but some adjustments are necessary in order to maintain a certain balance. In the current state of things, and even after the "adjustments", mages are really fun to play (RP) , very good in PvE and not bad at all in PvP (not tier 1, but still decent).

If I had to ask for an adjustment, I'd remove the -pray, but that's another topic.

[flower]

To have items to stack like They do in original would be interesting.

No longer +12 to ability...power meta would drop in huge manner same saves everything would gotten toned down by miles.

[monkeywithstick]

To have items to stack like They do in original would be interesting.

No longer +12 to ability...power meta would drop in huge manner same saves everything would gotten toned down by miles.

I've thought the same myself on more than one occasion but it would require a complete module rebalance same as banking skill points would.
A faithful interpretation of 3.0 in a PW would be very interesting indeed, but Arelith is not it and it would be a lot of work to make it so.

[flower]

To have items to stack like They do in original would be interesting.

No longer +12 to ability...power meta would drop in huge manner same saves everything would gotten toned down by miles.

I've thought the same myself on more than one occasion but it would require a complete module rebalance same as banking skill points would.
A faithful interpretation of 3.0 in a PW would be very interesting indeed, but Arelith is not it and it would be a lot of work to make it so.

Would it not need only to add more variety to itemas trough enchanting? Icnreasing how much you can enchant a thing on item.

Preventing it to stack would leave all current characters at same position, bumping down their abilities (for everyone actually). A AB/DMg of meleers and their HPS would go down same would go down DC on spells and other things. It would make module NPCs hard to fight sure but sometimes it feels like pve is too easy.

[monkeywithstick]

To have items to stack like They do in original would be interesting.

No longer +12 to ability...power meta would drop in huge manner same saves everything would gotten toned down by miles.

I've thought the same myself on more than one occasion but it would require a complete module rebalance same as banking skill points would.
A faithful interpretation of 3.0 in a PW would be very interesting indeed, but Arelith is not it and it would be a lot of work to make it so.

Would it not need only to add more variety to itemas trough enchanting? Icnreasing how much you can enchant a thing on item.

Preventing it to stack would leave all current characters at same position, bumping down their abilities (for everyone actually). A AB/DMg of meleers and their HPS would go down same would go down DC on spells and other things. It would make module NPCs hard to fight sure but sometimes it feels like pve is too easy.

So, assuming animal buffs do not stack with items (as per PnP) people would likely instead spend resources on wands. Unless the maximum enchantment value was huge - in which case wands would be useless and transmuters would be neutered.

Also given as there would only be only need to enchant 1 slot per item slot, and it wouldn't stack. By end game, most characters would then be slotting one for each stat I imagine. So You could assume everyone has +X to each base stat and leave it at that. So unless X = 12... ABs would drop, available spell slots would drop, Hp would drop for everyone (making Con even more essential to prioritise in builds), saves would drop (making immunities better: monks, paladins, and casters rejoice, everyone else beeline for the clarity potions and death ward wands.

Skill totals will drop massively and the bonii will likely become meaningless (I slot a single +X to hide and another for MS, but seeing as no one can fill out slots with +X to discipline anymore, any useful skills to a build will be skill buffed on an item slot. So everyone with detection skills will have that +X to spot or listen in one of their slots, so all that really counts then is the skill rank as opposed to the modicum of customisation on the gear.

This is balanced in PnP via item scarcity (i.e any magic item you have is kind of a big deal rather than a guaranteed must own by 30). That doesn't tend to work on a PW like this, because given ample time and grinding I can just buy/craft/find something for each slot.
Combined with massively disincentivising grind (as I've seen on another server I used to play, which -does- do item stacking as per PnP) it can work. But this means that once you hit your level cap, your options for stuff to do and how to make cash become vastly limited.

It would be a massive and wide ranging change in every sense. Not all of those changes are objectively bad but they are objectively a huge amount of work for the Devs to completely rework the server into a different animal entirely.

There are, additionally only two ways I can think to reconcile this into Arelith short of a reset: Just telling everyone their epic, runed gear is now worthless as it doesn't stack and welcome to the new enchantment system. *Or* trying to somehow subjectively give player characters "equivalent" loot. Which will be a nightmare when someone gets accidentally overlooted because a DM/admin misjudged, or when someone perceives that someone else with similar/identical loot got something marginally better than them.

[MissEvelyn]

I'm going to play the Devil's advocate here in regards to skill dump.

Typically, most characters take the biggest skill dumps (this sounds so wrong) at epic levels, because they wish to utilize them the best. Tumble, for example, gets best use out of being at 30. It's not unusual to see a character go from Level 26 to 27 and increase their Tumble from 0 to 30.

Did that happen overnight? It certainly did. Over the span of an in-game hour, in fact.

However, it's important to remember that this is an epic character we're talking about. They're almost demi-gods in their power. Taking a skill dump like that should be a trivial matter when at the same time they can teleport around planes, conjure demon lords, raise the dead, and even craft items of immense power.

As the NWN description of an Epic Character states:

Your training and arduous ordeals have finally brought you to the threshold that divides the realms of mortal from those of the divine. You are an epic character, capable of choosing legendary feats and raising your skills to god-like levels.

[Durvayas]

a rogue dip doesn't give them their special feats and all their sneak attacks

a ranger dip doesn't give them all their bonus feats and ac bonuses or HiPs

a bard dip doesn't give a bard song worth the round it takes to cast

fighter dips are good--at four levels you get weapon specs, but none of the bonus AC and soft stats higher levels give

this isn't the slippery slope you're making it out to be

A counterpoint to this is that a rogue dip does instantaneously allow a character to know Thieves Cant, which makes it the most mechanically useless language in the game due to the sheer number of no-thief-RP-whatsoever rogue dips, particularly paladin builds.

The cant needs to be gated behind 5 levels in the class, or removed entirely. At current, its basically unusable.

[sad_zav]

i don't think balancing around a meme of a language is really a high priority

[Hunter548]

a rogue dip doesn't give them their special feats and all their sneak attacks

a ranger dip doesn't give them all their bonus feats and ac bonuses or HiPs

a bard dip doesn't give a bard song worth the round it takes to cast

fighter dips are good--at four levels you get weapon specs, but none of the bonus AC and soft stats higher levels give

this isn't the slippery slope you're making it out to be

A counterpoint to this is that a rogue dip does instantaneously allow a character to know Thieves Cant, which makes it the most mechanically useless language in the game due to the sheer number of no-thief-RP-whatsoever rogue dips, particularly paladin builds.

The cant needs to be gated behind 5 levels in the class, or removed entirely. At current, its basically unusable.

You could put thieves cant behind as many rogue levels as you want and it'd still be a worthless unusable language.


Not all rogues are thieves, either.