Harper Paragon: The Nerfening - Please an ounce of mercy?

[Red Ropes]

Okay; so- I get why this pathway was nerfed and I will preface this with the fact I am playing one. Though not one that would ever be able to fully take advantage of all that this class allowed/allows. Even before taking the pathway I felt that of all the harper backgrounds it was one of the most boring as it was straightforward and really only provided 'rewards'.

Previously it provided full caster level regardless of background as a divine or arcane class, it gave divine grace and later provided you divine shield, divine might, and the ability to turn undead if you did not already have it.

Currently, this is how it works out:


Compared still to the bells and whistles of the other paths it has become a lot more bland with little thematics too or and its mechanical bonuses aren't really that great. If you want to be a divine harper of any type you're better off going Harper Priest as a cleric or a paladin, or doing a bardaddin under Master Harper where your caster levels are unnerfed and you are honestly better than most base class multiclasses.

Even the Harper Scout allows for an untyped +3 Caster Level bonus spread throughout which can be incredibly useful for certain builds, its `improved sneak-attacks' are actually 2d6 free sneaks that stack with all kinds but can even supplement a class which is not taking them.

Harper Paragon even loses the Harper Knowledge feats which are a tiny RP bonus of +5 lore for whatever reason and all the other subclasses maintain it.

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Could this pathway be given a second glance? You can't just re-specialize as a different kind of harper in game and while you can certainly go `hey nothing is forever, things change`, this was one of the more popular harper builds - some people who built around it are probably in a weird, squishy spot.

While I can absolutely appreciate the efforts taken to make the other paths both desirable and capable of fitting to thematics - harper paragon is sort of a corpse now. Free feats and abilities you normally can't take and a +6 UNI save are objectively neat and useful but I don't really think it's enough to justify taking it.

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Some small suggestions I have are:

1) Fix Detect Evil (you can't use it currently), and potentially have to include ANY divine class towards the DC, whether it be paladin, druid, cleric, CoT, or ranger. Maybe include 1/2 class levels for non-divine classes - because otherwise this is just a whistle, and not very useful.

2) Potentially include full CL for Divine Classes (paladin, druid, cleric, ranger) for the caster level bonuses to the class. You're already divine, the gods love and bless you, you should probably reap the benefits and not be made weaker for taking something that is clearly divine themed. The current `every other CL` is probably fine but you could have it follow the Harper Scout and make it +3 which at most makes any sort of DIET BARDADDINS 23+ spell level.

3) Your divine classes should count towards your turning CL. You get turning, but it's rather worthless beyond using it for divine might or divine shield. So druid, paladin, ranger, and cleric levels counting towards your turning level would be nice and thematic, and emphasis that this is a specialized holy warrior rather than a dip.

4) Restore Harper Knowledge, I have no idea why it was even removed. It's not godly powerful. Harpers encourage the sharing of knowledge.

5) Bump up when you get divine might, divine shield, and turning. You have to completely invest in this as an end game sort of thing and are disadvantaged if you take it pre-epic, for those that do that, and for those who take it otherwise it'd be nice to get use of the whole reason you're probably going down this path before you're level 30. I think giving divine might at level 3 / turning at the 3rd level, and divine shield at the fourth would be a nice bonus.

6) Give it the god aspect bonus of the Harper Priest. The harpers as an organization are blessed directly by several different deities, the Entire Elven Pantheon, and many of the deities of knowledge, magic, nature, and good. Given it's also a divine class receiving the different aspects would be a neat, and not overtly mechanical bonus. Useful without making you a demigod and thematic.

7) I suppose at the fifth level it could receive extra turning or planar turning as some sort of extra cookie. Currently its made so you have to invest all the way to the fifth level to "get it all" so to speak. It is otherwise dead water, empty, and without a soul. Which is weird because it's called Harper Paragon.


Compared to the current image of the class, I'd like to see it resemble this:

Level:
1: -detect evil (divine class levels count, non-divine count 1/2 towards DC)
Harper Knowledge
+1 Divine Caster Level
Bonus Feat (Fav Enemy or Curse Song)
+2 Universal Saves

2:
+1 Divine Caster Level
+1 Arcane Caster Level

3:
+1 Divine Caster Level
Turn Undead (Divine Caster Level counts towards Turn Level, 1/2 non-divine)
Divine Might/Shield
+2 Universal Saves

4:
+1 Divine Caster Level
+1 Arcane Caster Level
Divine Shield/Divine Might

5:
+1 Divine Caster Level
Bonus Feat (Fav Enemy or Curse Song)
+2 Universal Saves
Treated as having all six deity aspects
Extra Turning or Planar Turning


that's all folks, hope something is done to make this less bland and more thematic.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

So, I'd like to agree that the Paragon got dialed back a little too far, given the goodies that were given to every other path. It did too many things too well, I agree, but on the flip side now literally every other path achieves what the Paragon achieves better for most builds, unless you're trying to add divine might and divine shield to a build that doesn't incorporate power attack and cleave. If that's the only niche it's intended to fill successfully, then leave it as is, but otherwise I very much like Red Ropes' suggestion, as it puts them back into a Paladin-style feel without being grossly outclassed by Harper Priest.

I would say the level 5 super-cookie should be EITHER Planar Turning & Extra Turning OR All 6 domain aspects, though, and I feel that all six domain aspects belongs more correctly to the Priest path. Edit: I didn't notice the +6 <stacking> universal saves. Functionally it's just a weakened divine grace. I'm ambivalent about it, and also about them getting a super-cookie with it. I still like the theme of the suggestion, though!

I'm also sad that the class no longer makes a viable Mystic Theurge style path, but- such is life!

[WanderingPoet]

The nice thing about it being universal saves is that it now stacks with divine grace. I do agree they should get better caster level progression again but otherwise it's really strong as is. Even if you had 8 charisma, you can get a buffed 5 damage/AC, 2 epic feats and 6 saves just for grabbing the class. If you happen to be a paladin with say... 16 base charisma you're looking at:

Not needing cleave/power attack
2 epic feats ( curse song, epic skill focus (all but animal empathy, perform, use magic device), epic will, favored enemy, great charisma, great dexterity, improved combat casting, and lasting inspiration.)
Free feat divine might/divine shield which when buffed would give 9 damage/ac on use
6 saves + buffed 9 saves from divine grace
Your -detectevil gets stronger

So you basically get 6 feats back in your build as a paladin, and 6 saves on top of divine grace - that's really quite powerful. All at the cost of 3 caster level, 1 wisdom and... That's it. Unless you dip in a third class you're able to even keep the +5 bless weapon, +7 deafening clang, and 30 CL vs dispels.

So giving them harper knowledge would be nice - giving them +1 more CL back to match scout would be nice, but anything beyond that would make a class that is already very powerful much too powerful!

[sad_zav]

if you're going paladin/paragon you're looking at a spread of 22/5/3, 3 being rogue/bard for a tumble/umd dump

this gives you 24 cl. this doesn't help with anything. thresholds for bless weapon are 21 and 26, and deafening are 23/27.

compare this to the 23/4/3 paladin/fighter/rogue.

Paragon gets 6 uni (on a build that already has plenty of saves), 1 more cl (that doesn't actually break any thresholds), and 1 more cl vs dispels (okay, actually helpful), and some extra feats (on a build that really doesn't need extra feats that much), but also does cost some extra skills on a build that is skill starved (8 on persuade, 8 CCing search, neither of which you'd usually take)

Fighter, by contrast, gets weapon specs for a good amount of ALWAYS USEFUL extra damage. you also don't need to wait until epics to get div might/shield, because you should only ever take harper in epics.

You could also argue for a 21/5/4 paladin/paragon/fighter, but now you've lost 3 AC from tumble (assuming you CC it) and have no umd.

paragon's problem was its synergy with sorcerer. these nerfs addressed that, but hurt other paragon builds a lot in the process. i'd also argue that sorc/paladin/harper mage is a superior alternative anyway now.

EDIT
i'd also argue that bard/paladin/master harper is superior now to paragon/bard/fighter. this substantially hurt ranger/paragon/x, which wasn't nearly as broken as a LOT of other things on this server.

[Red Ropes]

My suggestion is not that it be tuned up, but, in fact just made more in line with the other paths to have a nice synergy with something else.

It's a diet paladin. Now's it's this slow-burning investment that only has payoffs in high epics. You don't even get cool tools, you lose all the harper feats, you don't even have Harper Knowledge, and there is nothing about it that really makes sense.

I support the loss of divine grace, I don't care about the unisaves.

I care that it's basically a huge investment for essentially two things. You don't any subterfuge abilities, knowledge, your detect evil is a worthless meme (and it is for paladins), and you don't have anything that makes you seem like a diet paladin divine warrior protector of the inherent freedoms of goodly people everywhere.

Give it something of substance rather than just some useful power abilities. Make it fit in line with the others (like the divine aspect) or some sort of synergy with other classes. As it sits there are now better ways created by this very update to do the same things people were doing with it, bound a bit more by certain oversights, but they're not oversights that ever really come up on Arelith.

A divine class synergy or something that makes you more like a paladin beyond damage feats would be great - and though it predated this change - for whatever reason, someone thought +5 Lore was 'too much icing', I guess. Give them Harper Knowledge back! The all-deities aspects would also just be a nice little bone, something that wasn't just bland mechanical power.

I also hope in the future big changes like this are advertised before they happen, and I especially hope with the coming of haks that the Harper Scout and its various subclasses just become unique prestige classes. (It's really easy to add non-spellcasting prestige and base classes in NWN, if tedious, via .2da editing)

[Chabal]

if you're going paladin/paragon you're looking at a spread of 22/5/3, 3 being rogue/bard for a tumble/umd dump

this gives you 24 cl. this doesn't help with anything. thresholds for bless weapon are 21 and 26, and deafening are 23/27.

compare this to the 23/4/3 paladin/fighter/rogue.

Paragon gets 6 uni (on a build that already has plenty of saves), 1 more cl (that doesn't actually break any thresholds), and 1 more cl vs dispels (okay, actually helpful), and some extra feats (on a build that really doesn't need extra feats that much), but also does cost some extra skills on a build that is skill starved (8 on persuade, 8 CCing search, neither of which you'd usually take)

Fighter, by contrast, gets weapon specs for a good amount of ALWAYS USEFUL extra damage. you also don't need to wait until epics to get div might/shield, because you should only ever take harper in epics.

You could also argue for a 21/5/4 paladin/paragon/fighter, but now you've lost 3 AC from tumble (assuming you CC it) and have no umd.

paragon's problem was its synergy with sorcerer. these nerfs addressed that, but hurt other paragon builds a lot in the process. i'd also argue that sorc/paladin/harper mage is a superior alternative anyway now.

EDIT
i'd also argue that bard/paladin/master harper is superior now to paragon/bard/fighter. this substantially hurt ranger/paragon/x, which wasn't nearly as broken as a LOT of other things on this server.

Have you actually tried making a sorc/pala/harper mage build? Because while it may look nice on paper, it is absolute shambles once you realize, that you won't be able to pick a ton of sorcerer essentials.

You either have to sacrifice your CONJ line or EVO, if you want to take advantage of the AQII you get from harper mage and pick up AQIII, you basically won't have access to more than one or max. 2 epic spells and forget about playing that build with anything other than a human, because you are so feat and skill starved that it is simply not an option.

I'd gladly take a look at something you can come up with, that you think is a great build involving those three classes, but until then, I'll continue to think, that it's mostly good on paper.

Now to the actual subject at hand: You won't ever get enough traction on this to affect change, I am afraid. There simply aren't enough people playing harpers for it to matter. Which also makes it interesting that it got nerfed in the first place. Apparently harper sorcs were the culprits and yet even if you are a harper yourself, you won't see any of these actually being played, so there's that.

One common argument I heard so far, was that you get +6 uni save and bonus feats etc. still, while for sorcerers for example, that is simply not the case. You are very unlikely to ever pick up 5 harper levels, because you simply can't in most cases and there is no real reason that you want to, but that also means that you will lose another +2 Uni saves, a bonus feat and your voting right perk.

I have to say, I find the practice of making incursions like this to a token-approval class, without granting some sort of way to salvage builds, in poor taste. I suppose it's one way to make players start all over again and keep them on the treadmill, but its more likely to alienate them from the Harpers as a faction, the approval process or the server as a whole.

I also agree with Red Ropes, that Paragon as a whole lacks its niche now.

I currently play my own as a sort of divine soul sorcerer and I am having fun with it regardless, but I think hitting them with the loss of divine grace AND caster levels was overzealous and should likely be reverted. As it stands, they are unlikely to be great dispellers themselves, not having feasible access to the Abjuration schools, now they are more likely to be dispelled and have weaker summons as well for no good reason.

[sad_zav]

evo isn't as important as people think, that's all I'll say on that matter

I'm also out of town and don't have the build I made on hand

[Chabal]

evo isn't as important as people think, that's all I'll say on that matter

I'm also out of town and don't have the build I made on hand

Why does it often feel like you have to extort that type of information out of people?

It's kind of weird how people (even more so, when it's someone of the Git Gud team) seem more eager to jealously guard builds and more in-depth information on building than they are interested in sharing.

[sad_zav]

well I said I was out of town but I'm definitely not inclined to share it with you now

[Chabal]

well I said I was out of town but I'm definitely not inclined to share it with you now

For expressing a sentiment? Alrighty then.

[Jack Oat]

Why does it often feel like you have to extort that type of information out of people?

Because no one is psychic. We don't know what you do and don't know. So we correct where we can and answer questions where we can.

It's kind of weird how people (even more so, when it's someone of the Git Gud team) seem more eager to jealously guard builds and more in-depth information on building than they are interested in sharing.

There's an entire compendium of builds made by Git Gud people available to anyone who wants to see them. No one is jealously guarding anything.

You want to know why Evocation isn't that necessary anymore? Because after Hellball and GRuin got the big nerf a few years ago the one-hit-kill combo doesn't involve Evo anymore. Sure, some Evo spells are good like the Bigby's line and Great Thunderclap, but it isn't necessary. There are other schools I would say are better, like Divination with its Trueseeing buff, free see invis, and then Feeblemind and Power Word: Kill. And of course Scrying.


Fix your attitude and people may be more willing to actually have a dialogue with you about things. And maybe if you removed your cranium from your posterior you'd be better able to read when Zav says he's out of town.

[Chabal]

Why does it often feel like you have to extort that type of information out of people?

Because no one is psychic. We don't know what you do and don't know. So we correct where we can and answer questions where we can.

It's kind of weird how people (even more so, when it's someone of the Git Gud team) seem more eager to jealously guard builds and more in-depth information on building than they are interested in sharing.

There's an entire compendium of builds made by Git Gud people available to anyone who wants to see them. No one is jealously guarding anything.

You want to know why Evocation isn't that necessary anymore? Because after Hellball and GRuin got the big nerf a few years ago the one-hit-kill combo doesn't involve Evo anymore. Sure, some Evo spells are good like the Bigby's line and Great Thunderclap, but it isn't necessary. There are other schools I would say are better, like Divination with its Trueseeing buff, free see invis, and then Feeblemind and Power Word: Kill. And of course Scrying.


Fix your attitude and people may be more willing to actually have a dialogue with you about things. And maybe if you removed your cranium from your posterior you'd be better able to read when Zav says he's out of town.

If someone says "Evo isnt as important as people think /and that is all I'll say on the matter/" I take it at face value.

I'm unfortunately not psychic either. Head in my Snuggybear or not.

Appreciate the explanation regardless.