Balance between the classes.

[flower]

I feel like cleric dispel is in a good place tbh. Mages do magic stuff, while clerics can heal. One does not need to equal the other in every aspect.

Spell book in nwn is poor imitation of what cleric is supposed to do. Type of powers depends on God's and there are many gods who dislike to provide healing powers. Countless deities who have domains like chaos, destruction, undead, etc. Nwn reduced the list and nerfs on Arelith made from cleric the healer type from wow or lineage.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Yeah and wizards have a ton of spells in P&P but that doesn't mean they should also be in the game. I am pretty sure one of the wizard spells makes someone no longer exist.

[flower]

Yeah and wizards have a ton of spells in P&P but that doesn't mean they should also be in the game. I am pretty sure one of the wizard spells makes someone no longer exist.

Same as do some prayers

[-XXX-]

It'd seem that the entire FR pantheon has decided to test their clergy by limiting their dispelling capabilities.
"Thou shalt be modest and humble and accept the gifts that be giveth"

Makes sense from mechanical balance perspective as well - clerics represent a palpable melee presence from both defensive and offensive standpoint. Arcanists do not.
Furthermore, it'd appear that the DEVs have decided that as far as divine classes and dispels go, dispelling ought to be more of a Paladin's gimmick.
I'd say be grateful that clerics even have the access to any dispelling effects whatsoever. #thingsastheyshouldbe

[Dirac]

Hey guys, this discussion is moot because Greater Dispel was fixed.

[Invader_Nym]

A bog-standard Arelith 20 fighter/7 weaponmaster/3 rogue at level 30 has, inclusive of feats and base ability scores:

• 18 base fort

• 17 base reflex

• 11 base will.

Add to that 16 ranks of cross-classed spellcraft, +2 int bonus and 6 pieces of +2 spellcraft gear gives you a neat +6 saves vs. spells (30 total spellcraft ranks). Now you're at 24/23/17. Suppose you also runed +1 unisaves onto those 6 items. Now you're at 30/29/23.

Now max out your con to the soft-bonus cap of +12 and you've got a further +6 fortitude. You also have the Strong Soul feat which is +1 vs. death spells.

Now your fort save vs. FoD is +37, which will only fail against a standard level 30 necrowizard's DC 39 Finger of Death on a natural 1.

Note that this is just one example. It's far easier to get saves in this range with other classes, paladin and blackguard being the obvious ones. Is this more effort than your average player is willing to put in to immunize themselves (barring the odd nat 1) against FoD? Sure.

But it's definitely possible, and people are doing it. It's bad design to balance around people who don't understand the mechanics or aren't trying.

I failed to account for the fact that you can now reliably put +1 universal on everything with the help of runes, which does indeed put you over the cusp re: saving throws, and is sort of a middle-finger to casting classes, given that each point to universal saves requires +2 pts to the caster's primary stat to counter, and a caster's primary stat is capped at +12 from magic/items. Saving throws aren't subject to this cap, are they?

That enhancement bonuses stack is also an annoying NWN affectation that throws a wrench into the whole balancing thing.

Your assessment regarding the fighter/WM/bard combo definitely seems correct. Runes seem to tilt the balance of power further in favor of that uber-build.

I still hate save-or-lose affects of any type, because it's just not sporting; it doesn't allow for an ebb and flow of combat where each person has to adapt and respond and think quickly. It's just 'poof, you lose.' As I said, I think that Pathfinder and 5th edition got it right when they got rid of these save-or-lose effects, and I'd love to see the same come to Arelith, but with the advent of runes there is indeed at least some small percentage of the playerbase that is able to walk around with crazy saving throws unbuffed, which I think is its own unique balancing problem.

I do stand by my main point, however, which is that if we were to want casting classes to pull ahead, as people agree they do at least in pen-and-paper, then it's a balance issue to make life easier for them at lower levels; that additional power at the end is supposed to come at the cost of a struggle in the beginning.

I think however that the changes to the save-or-lose spells in Pathfinder and 5th edition are part of an effort to flatten out the power curve for wizard a bit, so it depends on which approach you want to take. In my opinion it's a choice between two philosophies: flatten out the power curve for wizard and make it easier at lower levels, or make wizard suck to play at lower levels to compensate for their spike in power at later levels.

[-XXX-]

Saves have a soft bonus cap of +20. Between spellcraft skilldump and uni save bonus gear you can fairly effortlessly get to +18

[Dirac]

Why would you do that when you can make the poor mans weapon master and save yourself 6 million + in runes?

Ftr/CoT/WM 6/16/7 Just use Divine Wrath in PvP to get your AC.

The biggest imbalance I am seeing is the good vs. evil axis. When you look at it, good has Harper, Paladin (Arelith homebrew Holy Sword is insane), and CoT and evil has nothing at all that comes close. Not to mention you kick yourself in the sack

Then you got folks running around with Legacy builds including the Harper Paragon, Perma-haste Kensai (why was this even a thing?) now which is another story all together.

[TimeAdept]

Except divine wrath doesn't give you AC and that build doesn't get tumble or UMD

[Dirac]

Except divine wrath doesn't give you AC and that build doesn't get tumble or UMD

You're right, I meant AB. But yeah, you can get some pretty good mileage without having wet dreams of getting 6 runes on your gear.

[WanderingPoet]

Why would you do that when you can make the poor mans weapon master and save yourself 6 million + in runes?

Ftr/CoT/WM 6/16/7 Just use Divine Wrath in PvP to get your AC.

The biggest imbalance I am seeing is the good vs. evil axis. When you look at it, good has Harper, Paladin (Arelith homebrew Holy Sword is insane), and CoT and evil has nothing at all that comes close. Not to mention you kick yourself in the sack

Then you got folks running around with Legacy builds including the Harper Paragon, Perma-haste Kensai (why was this even a thing?) now which is another story all together.

Harper Paragon doesn't have a legacy build, it lost features. Kensai also lost its perma haste.

Evil also gets Blackguard, Assassin, and Palemaster - all of which are in a very strong place right now.

[Dirac]

Evil also gets Blackguard, Assassin, and Palemaster - all of which are in a very strong place right now.

Just take a and look at what you said. First compare Paladin to Blackguard and we can get a laugh together. Palemaster caster is busted and can't penetrate right now, but yeah there is a meme tank build you can do with a dragon. Assassin? meh... Do you even play the game?

[TimeAdept]

BG is bad past 4 levels, assassin is a strictly worse Rogue post Rogue Renaissance, and Palemaster is a Not Dying Machine and those are objectively bad archetypes.

Good/"Non Evil" has Paladin (slayin') CoT (slayin') Harper (straight bangin')

[Vrass]

Need to add more spells to the cleric/druid spell-book. There are already hacks which do this and should be incorporated but i think more then those are needed. I will eventually make a thread for spell suggestions later.

[sad_zav]

clerics are fine imo

druids need a rework

[WanderingPoet]

Evil also gets Blackguard, Assassin, and Palemaster - all of which are in a very strong place right now.

Just take a and look at what you said. First compare Paladin to Blackguard and we can get a laugh together. Palemaster caster is busted and can't penetrate right now, but yeah there is a meme tank build you can do with a dragon. Assassin? meh... Do you even play the game?

Yeah who would think that getting a summon that rivals a level 9 spell (gate) every 6 minutes as well the ability to summon an epic level fighter every 6 minutes, and getting divine grace/divine shield/divine might/smite (like a paladin) for a small 11 levels is 'bad'. Oh you can cast bless weapon to get a +5 weapon? That's really great if you want to get 26 levels of paladin, otherwise all of the +4 weapons are as useful, outside of against 3 enemy types. Of course, Holy Sword and Deafening clang are both great as well, but again need a pretty high level of paladin investment. You can take 4 levels in blackguard for a large power boost, or you can take 11 and get yourself an constant tank while still having 19 levels for the rest of your build.

Palemaster - I think you missed the buffs to all of the necromancy spell, the free epic spells which make it generally more powerful to play a necromancer as a palemaster than as a wizard. Outside of fighting drow/svirf/monks, spell resistance is easy to beat so that argument is rather lacking - a mords will take care of the spell resistance spell easily enough. I mean ask anyone that actually plays a palemaster, they're easy mode right now outside of select PVP fights - and that isn't even talking about how tanky they get at not cost.

Assassins are beat by rogues after the rogue buff, but they're still quite powerful - they have access to several of the rogue bonus feats, access to unlimited darkness/ethereal visage/invis - consider that they removed favoured soul for being unbalanced with its unlimited darkness/ethreal visage/haste afterall; and assassins get most of those while still getting sneak attacks, evasion, epic dodge etc.

You should try out the classes before you throw them under the bus; they may not be top tier for PVP (who cares? ) - but neither is paladin or harper, and CoT has to win within a minute or their divine wrath wears off with all their power.

[TimeAdept]

clerics are fine imo

druids need a rework

I'd still like to see clerics and druids get GSF infini spells, it's weird they don't

Druids would get miles more QOL if they just got more of the animal spells

[TimeAdept]

No one takes 11 levels of BG, and the tier 5 comes at level 9 not 11

You do 3 BG for Shield, 4 BG for both, or 16 for Epic Fiend, there are no other breakpoints and at level 9/11 the T5 fiend will ot get you through level 30 content or be any danger in PVP.

The Undead is a joke and not worth talking about, it's definitely not an "epic level fighter". 9 or 11 levels is not a small investment.

PM problem isn't solved by mords because it only lowers SR by 10 but the PMs are losing 16+ to penetration, more like 19-20 depending on final bard/PM/wiz spread. They'e easy mode PVE because of the summons, not because of anything the actual character itself gets.

Assassin has those abilities on cooldown which is very very different from Fs and Warlock 1/2 per round, it loses 4 skill points, 4 bonus feats pre epic, nerfed death attack from EE, and gains the assassin guild. 24/6 is still completely superior in every way - including at actually assassinating people.

[sad_zav]

i agree that druids should get all zoo spells

clerics/druids don't need infini spells, because they can do more than just cast

[Hazard]

Meanwhile shifter cries in the corner.

[Dirac]

Yeah who would think that getting a summon that rivals a level 9 spell (gate) every 6 minutes as well the ability to summon an epic level fighter every 6 minutes, and getting divine grace/divine shield/divine might/smite (like a paladin) for a small 11 levels is 'bad'. Oh you can cast bless weapon to get a +5 weapon? That's really great if you want to get 26 levels of paladin, otherwise all of the +4 weapons are as useful, outside of against 3 enemy types. Of course, Holy Sword and Deafening clang are both great as well, but again need a pretty high level of paladin investment. You can take 4 levels in blackguard for a large power boost, or you can take 11 and get yourself an constant tank while still having 19 levels for the rest of your build.

What are you arguing here? "Divine grace/divine shield/divine might/smite (like a paladin)" okkkkk... but thats about the only thing they get "like a Paladin" which doesn't include 52 obtainable AB, 68 AC, not to mention a +5 Holy Sword that cuts thru DR and appears to strip all the buffs off it's target in one hit. You're probably the guy running around delusional out of his mind thinking that having that sort of dunk stick is somehow balanced by the fact that BG's can get (let me quote you) "divine grace/divine shield/divine might/smite (like a paladin)".

Palemaster - I think you missed the buffs to all of the necromancy spell, the free epic spells which make it generally more powerful to play a necromancer as a palemaster than as a wizard. Outside of fighting drow/svirf/monks, spell resistance is easy to beat so that argument is rather lacking - a mords will take care of the spell resistance spell easily enough. I mean ask anyone that actually plays a palemaster, they're easy mode right now outside of select PVP fights - and that isn't even talking about how tanky they get at not cost.

No I didn't miss the buffs to the necromancy spells, etc. In fact i'm laughing my Snuggybear out of my chair at you. You do realize that these Palemasters have to spend most of their time in UD where they end up fighting... Drow right? There isn't a Drow player at all worried about the next time a caster Palemaster is going to try to PvP them.... and using a Mordies doesn't necessary solve the problem because they are losing 16 CL in penetration It's dreadful. CoT, IMO, is by far the better choice especially when you CC tumble.

but neither is paladin or harper, and CoT has to win within a minute or their divine wrath wears off with all their power.

Dude you've lost your mind with this one. Paladin has arguable the strongest spell in it's repertoire right now. You get free EPIC FEATS just for taking Harper where most of the time caster levels stack. Divine wrath is like one button that catapults your AB well into the mid 50's and you get a few of those aday at least.

[Vrass]

Magic focused clerics should get the infini-spells since they dont fight melee. Not everyone plays melee clerics some like a more magic oriented kind of cleric.

[sad_zav]

you got healer path for that

[flower]

It'd seem that the entire FR pantheon has decided to test their clergy by limiting their dispelling capabilities.
"Thou shalt be modest and humble and accept the gifts that be giveth"

Makes sense from mechanical balance perspective as well - clerics represent a palpable melee presence from both defensive and offensive standpoint. Arcanists do not.
Furthermore, it'd appear that the DEVs have decided that as far as divine classes and dispels go, dispelling ought to be more of a Paladin's gimmick.
I'd say be grateful that clerics even have the access to any dispelling effects whatsoever. #thingsastheyshouldbe

In nwn, perhaps. In dnd type and style of cleric depands on the specific deity. Some wear armour, some are naked (as efficient as guys in platemail), some rely on brute power, some are masters in divine magic and never use a weapon.

[Vrass]

Healer is good only for healing... its crap otherwise.