High Level Material Ingots

[Cybernet21]

All Right,i feel like i need to share my opinion on this,many time on this server i've seen shops where they sell a finished product,like say an Adamantine Full Plate Armor for one price and also selling the number of Ingots needed to make that item the same price.My opinion is that realistic speaking that makes no sense at all,how is the finished product the same price as the raw material?

I suggest a limit of price on materials used to craft,or at least on materials that are Mithril+ tier on any crafting activity having a limit,i have no idea for other craft but for Forging i would say Mithril Ingot Limit Price at 25k (or maybe even 20k) and Adamantine Ingot Limit Price at 50K (Or maybe 40k),now that doesn't mean that people need to sell at that price,it just means people can't rise more than that,i think it would help a lot on this problem i'm seeing. Thoughts on the matter?

EDIT: Reminder that that price limit is per item,so two Adamantine Ingots are 100 K max

[TimeAdept]

Price fixing should be IC and never OOC.

[Cybernet21]

I am not saying there should be a mechanic saying how much it should cost or the optimal price,but having a mechanic that puts a limit at how much it can cost

[The Rambling Midget]

Excuse me, what?
If you don't like the prices, go get the materials yourself, and undercut the other merchants.

Arelith's economy is fluid. The prices are what they are because people are willing to pay them. They're willing to pay them, because it's cheaper, for some people, to spend a bunch of gold than try to go to the places where these materials are found. Adding an OOC limit to what characters can charge for their wares would not only be a violation of the rules, but it would encourage characters to stockpile rare materials for direct sales or for their friends to use.


No.

[Cybernet21]

Okay then...
The main topic here is not my suggestion though,i want to hear thoughts on how can this problem be lessened or if it's even a problem at all,the way it is now people who can't find rare materials (since they spawn only on high level dungens sometimes) because they have no luck or simply don't have enough time simply have no reason to craft,since the final products end up being the same price as what you need to craft it.

Maybe a less..."rule breaking"(because i don't see anywhere how the first suggestion was rule breaking) solution might be if a person both has say an armor suit and the ingots of that material for sale on the same shop is making a limit price for the ingots such as: the number of ingots needed to make the armor suit that we are saying on the example cost at max 1/2 (Or even 3/4) of the suit's price,that way people still put the price they want if they are selling ingots alone and also indirectly put the price they want if they are also selling a finished product of the same material,by choosing how much they want to sell the final product for

[Cybernet21]

They're willing to pay them, because it's cheaper, for some people, to spend a bunch of gold than try to go to the places where these materials are found.

Btw this is exactly what i'm trying to talk about,the materials should be cheaper than the finished products because otherwise why would the person buy the materials or even worry about crafting if they are the same price as the finished product?

[The Rambling Midget]

why would the person buy the materials or even worry about crafting if they are the same price as the finished product?

Because they need it for something not being sold? Maybe instead of that full plate, they wanted a shield or a helm, which isn't currently available.

I guess I just don't understand what you're getting at, here. No one has a monopoly on these materials. If you don't like what people are charging for them, just go get the stuff, yourself.

If you think that the materials themselves are too rare for the average player to have a fair chance of mining them, then that's something to bring to the devs/contributors. But, if this is all about shop prices, it needs to be handled in character, because those prices are determined IC, as well.

[MissEvelyn]

This is an IC matter and it should be handled in-game. There's nothing to discuss. If a merchant wants to overprice their goods, it's bad business for them and when another similar merchant comes around, they're going to lose their customers.

But again, discussing this over the forums achieves absolutely nothing.

[Vrass]

Go get the materials yourself. Yeah um do you know how hard it is to get most of those materials? Not only are they super rare but they spawn in the very worst epic lv areas on the server. Places where going alone even at lv 30 is an automatic death sentence. Hell whole groups of lv 30s have been wiped out in these areas im told. Now maybe your character is such a OP powerbuild that he can go wherever the hell he wants and not die and if so thats great but most people dont have such godlike toons. Not everyone can be superman.

[Twily]

In my experience, there's two reasons you see completed adamantine products for the same price as the base metal in a store.

1. That smiths supply of adamantine is extremely limited and they want ore to use for themselves, but also don't want to deny customers the chance to purchase the ore if they need it for something else. Often times these stores have adamantine ore/ingots priced a bit above market average.
- If you see adamantine armors priced at current market price, with ores matching this cost, the ores aren't such a great deal and you can buy the ore somewhere else for cheaper if you want.

2. A bit less common than 1, but some smiths don't want to charge what the actual cost of the armor would be due to how high the price can get, so they sell it for the same price as adamantine as they're more likely to have a sale by selling both the armor and ore, than if they had just the ore.
- If you see adamantine armors priced at the current per ore/ingot rate, it's an amazing deal.



Neither of these I see as bad, and feel like the adamantine market is one best approached IC as others have said.

[Cybernet21]

I was just talking about perhaps making a limit on raw materials to make this problem not be a thing anymore because it basically puts monopoly over the ressources on the players that have time or luck finding the materials,but apparently prices can't be touched unless IC. So i guess we'll leave it as that.

I'm sorry btw,had no idea this was an IC matter.

[The Rambling Midget]

I was just talking about perhaps making a limit on raw materials to make this problem not be a thing anymore because it basically puts monopoly over the ressources on the players that have time or luck finding the materials

I meant what I said before. If you think that there's a problem with resource availability which favors a particular type of player, bring it up to the devs. They may swap things around or think of another solution that levels the playing field.

[MineTurtle]

It is worth noting that a pile of ingots is more useful than the armour to everyone but the person who wants the armour.

You can't, for example, unforge adamantine armour to make a Masterly Damask weapon. In some ways, by forging those ingots into something, you are reducing their value to lots of people, in return for increasing their value to others.

[Tomato]

[Aodh Lazuli]

I would petition the devs to introduce more addy spawning epic dungeons on the surface, rather than the UD having the vast majority of them.

Scarcity and pricing problem solved.

[-XXX-]

Haha, ok, I'll humor you for a moment here and will present the two most likely scenarios that your proposition would lead to:

a) one merchant hears your plea and considerably lowers their prices - their competition almost immediately buys out their entire stock and moves on to selling it at the established market value.

b) all the merchants react to this by lowering their prices - by the end of the day one of them decides to take advantage of this opportunity and buys out the entire market, then starts selling the merchandise at double the price.

So yes, while the prices of some materials in shops can be purely speculative, price tags on endgame crafting materials are set into the spots where the demand meets the offer. I'd say that this is something that only the DEVs can influence by making certain materials more scarce or available.

Also, should the prices of any materials be forcefully set to a value below the real established marked value, purely by the virtue of mechanics, you'd never see those materials on sale as they'd cease to be worth selling and characters capable of obtaining and selling them would just stop bothering after fulfilling their personal needs.

[msterswrdsmn]

To the OP's original post; the reason somtimes the materials costs as much/more than the finished product is because there are more available applications for the raw materials than there are a finished product. For example; a Celestial Helm IG is really only like 40k. But it requires mithril dust, which is used in a ton of end-game gear and is harder to find. Which shoots the price up from 40k to like, 250k.

Mithril is like this as well; theres dozens of recipies that use it, so people price gouge it even though its not -horribly- hard to find. Sei and Tua were literally throwing it away not to long ago (ie: Tua throwing 20 ingots into the river). Adamantine is one of the worst offenders for "crap that gets price gouged" due to how hard it is to find. Unlike almost every other resource, it can only be exclusively found in the end-game areas.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I'm surprised people don't factor material costs into the end product price, but, I suppose that's better for the buyer.

[Durvayas]

As someone playing a smith, I think its absurd that adamantine is still sitting at 90k per ingot after all this time. Its been nearly a year, and the price of adamantine has not fallen back to a more reasonable 60k per.

At the current rate, a single suit of adamantine plate will be 360000gp, and thats before taking into account labor. Thats an absurd amount of grinding for a mere +1AC over mithril, which costs much less than half that.

I saw a mithril ingot selling at 8k yesterday. What gives with the supply of addy?

[Blood on my Lips]

The price of materials is generally based on it's rarity and difficulty to acquire, and demand. When the market is flooded with a particular item, the price drops because the seller has more competition. The harder something is to get your hands on, combined with the demand for that item, drives the price up.

There's a dozen possible reason why you saw a finished product for sale at the same amount as the individual ingots themselves. I won't even begin to list all the reasons.

by Cybernet21 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:03 pm

I suggest a limit of price on materials used to craft,or at least on materials that are Mithril+ tier on any crafting activity having a limit,i have no idea for other craft but for Forging i would say Mithril Ingot Limit Price at 25k (or maybe even 20k) and Adamantine Ingot Limit Price at 50K (Or maybe 40k),now that doesn't mean that people need to sell at that price,it just means people can't rise more than that,i think it would help a lot on this problem i'm seeing. Thoughts on the matter?

This is not a good idea at all and could actually be terribly detrimental to the server if the players willing and able to obtain materials decided that gathering any given material was no longer worth their time and effort.

The price of materials is determined by the players and the game environment, as it should be. If your suggestion was implemented it is entirely likely that availability of items would become more rare. There would no-doubt be hording of these items by the people that are able to obtain them and they outfit only their circle of friends.

[The Rambling Midget]

What gives with the supply of addy?

It's meant to be endgame gear material. It should be rare.

At least with adamantine, you know where to find it. Classes that don't use heavy armor usually need mithril dust or other rare materials for their endgame gear, which is found entirely by luck, and sells at far higher prices.

Every argument in thread has been premised on a sense of entitlement. No one is owed rare materials, and those who want access to them must exert some effort in their pursuit, whether that means mining them directly, or trading with those who can. If everyone could buy the best gear with the gold from a single dungeon crawl, it would become meaningless.

[TimeAdept]

As someone playing a smith, I think its absurd that adamantine is still sitting at 90k per ingot after all this time. Its been nearly a year, and the price of adamantine has not fallen back to a more reasonable 60k per.

At the current rate, a single suit of adamantine plate will be 360000gp, and thats before taking into account labor. Thats an absurd amount of grinding for a mere +1AC over mithril, which costs much less than half that.

I saw a mithril ingot selling at 8k yesterday. What gives with the supply of addy?

When you go to Styx and find zinc and zinc, go to Minauros juggernaut and find zinc iron and zinc, then go to auril and find lead on the way and zinc and zinc in the dragon's room, then go to Abazuur, find Tin and Greensteel in Abby's room, then do the Needle Room and find Silver and Zinc, find more Lead in Pandemonium, and then Greensteel and Mithril at Maurs

it shouldn't be surprising that Adamantine price is still high.



Where you're seeing people with large stocks of addy are people who know where Adamantine can (rarely) spawn outside of endmage areas, and then they're checking those areas religiously. As soon as addy shows up you call in sick for work and spend 24 RL hours farming it because you may not see it again for another 2 RL months.

[Halfsized Heroes]

Haha, ok, I'll humor you for a moment here and will present the two most likely scenarios that your proposition would lead to:

a) one merchant hears your plea and considerably lowers their prices - their competition almost immediately buys out their entire stock and moves on to selling it at the established market value.

b) all the merchants react to this by lowering their prices - by the end of the day one of them decides to take advantage of this opportunity and buys out the entire market, then starts selling the merchandise at double the price.

So yes, while the prices of some materials in shops can be purely speculative, price tags on endgame crafting materials are set into the spots where the demand meets the offer. I'd say that this is something that only the DEVs can influence by making certain materials more scarce or available.

Also, should the prices of any materials be forcefully set to a value below the real established marked value, purely by the virtue of mechanics, you'd never see those materials on sale as they'd cease to be worth selling and characters capable of obtaining and selling them would just stop bothering after fulfilling their personal needs.

Or, it could go the complete opposite way. When I was playing a glassmaker, I was upset alchemists demanding a low price for my product but then selling their own finished products at a 5x mark-up. My response? I met with other glassmakers and we all agreed to simultaneously begin demanding higher prices for our work, considering the demand and the profits being made by alchemists (largely off of our labor.)

The result? It worked. You never know what will happen until you try it. People are usually when you point out that cooperation and collaboration leads to increased prosperity for all parties involved. Except for the alchemists. Death to the bourgeoisie.

[Cybernet21]

Don't people already horde adamantine for their character's circle of friends? I barely see it for sale,but in any way,i guess you guys are right that price should always be IC,means it's a living and breathing economy wich is realistic.

Anyways,people think they are entitled to end-game materials because without them end-game dungeons become too hard,one AC is the difference between getting hit all the time and not at all so it makes sense people feel like they need it. I am not saying Adamantine should be given out for free and at large quantities but it should definetly spwan more,but that is an entire different topic than the one i started on this thread.

[Cybernet21]

Haha, ok, I'll humor you for a moment here and will present the two most likely scenarios that your proposition would lead to:

a) one merchant hears your plea and considerably lowers their prices - their competition almost immediately buys out their entire stock and moves on to selling it at the established market value.

b) all the merchants react to this by lowering their prices - by the end of the day one of them decides to take advantage of this opportunity and buys out the entire market, then starts selling the merchandise at double the price.

So yes, while the prices of some materials in shops can be purely speculative, price tags on endgame crafting materials are set into the spots where the demand meets the offer. I'd say that this is something that only the DEVs can influence by making certain materials more scarce or available.

Also, should the prices of any materials be forcefully set to a value below the real established marked value, purely by the virtue of mechanics, you'd never see those materials on sale as they'd cease to be worth selling and characters capable of obtaining and selling them would just stop bothering after fulfilling their personal needs.

I wasn't asking for character merchants to drop their prices btw,that would be completely out of the rules anyways,and i still don't get how 50K as a limit would make people not sell it,how is 50 K not worth it again? It's not like the people who got the addy payed for it,they just mined it.But now i understand why people want to leave prices IC this isn't an MMO after all,but still....i don't get how having a limit of 50 K per ingot would make people want not to sell it,50 K is definetly better than 0 just my two cents