The state of Andunor

[reighbo]

Whenever I am online, it feels like a large majority of the playerbase there is human, with a handful of drow and even less than a few monster characters.

Welcome to the "newer ? " underdark, and its city, Andunor ... the Outcasted edition.

Most often these "imbalance" race issues, gets advised, ... to handle it IG. and with RP.

And as a long time "monster" player i have been "trying" ... that very thing, and for a while now.

Act like a "monster" lately ?

Has only really gotten me repetitively exiled + other "monsters" evicted.
FOR: supporting the actions of others, yet actual monsters via. A post on a message board.
FOR: accused of "plotting", as a monster.(irregardless of my actual plans).
FOR: fighting in the streets, no matter how much attacked, while a monster, yet then really, during yet another election.

Now i'm not pointing these "in game actual" crimes/punishments, to air any grievances at all, yet
just SEE how they now sound ? ... likely better ? if handled within Myon's legal-system ...
(yet does provide bragging rights)

Other monsters and perhaps the "smarter" ones,
Just more simply side with the Human-wave of Outcasts, over things as simple as "adamite", or less exiled positions within the District/city
... voting for them too.....
And mostly out of the, Drow/Kobold/Duagaer/and mostly, not less than 50% of the Orogs, or monsters. (all)
Helping them keep political-power, and that power will bring them yet more players seeking the more powerful political "factions" to join.
And it will bring more Humans.


Should these "monsters" ever really just subjugate them selfs over to the rule of actual humanity ?
Well they totally should,
As Outcasts have had that advantage of showing up as literal "unknowns", starting as UDers, but also as Epics.
Like no other UDer/monster race is/was ever able.
And that allowed them more of a position to instantly take over as powerful "unknowns".
And THAT is how the monsters would meet them for the most part ...

Most ran TO that power, in fact.
Others more resentful ran away .................... (Spets'), an O.G, goblin monster "Original Gangster" & Clan

EVERYONE : posting here, ... ask yourselves ?
In witch direction DID your Uders run ?
And by how much ... and how often

Also, drow clerics (and most other varieties of clerics) suck. Which is kind of a bit of a thematic issue.

Me ? I'd sorta agree in that ...
.... I'd just as well expect, the NEW WAVE of Outcasts, to be actually ..... 1/2 elfs .... i really do!
Only 1/2 Human & 1/2 Drow.
.... claiming they BELONG to Andunor, and the Devil's Table, yet mostly Voting within the Sharps.

juss sayin'

[Mr_Rieper]

Let's not put visible tags on outcasts descriptions please. This recent tags epidemic really isn't something to be promoted. We already have tags for slaves, paladins of the radiant heart and pirates. If we add outcasts to that list, where do we stop? Being able to identify palemasters at a glance because they're icky and got undead bits instead of actually having to RP to reach conclusions like that?

As for the topic of outcasts in Andunor, it's a little shocking to me how many forumgoers seem outright hostile to the state of matters. If there's more outcasts than non-outcast-monsters as claimed, then doesn't that mean there's something that the majority of Andunor players find attractive about that over monsters? Instead of stamping down with a foot and saying "No, you can't enjoy this because I can't enjoy my thing if you enjoy your thing" wouldn't it be better to look for some compromise? An area dedicated to the more tribalistic or monstrous races in, near or around Andunor seems like an easy solution for those who want to play monsters without having to run into icky humans.

But what do I know, I like Andunor as is. More activity is more fun, and more outcasts definitely means more activity. I'll take busy skullport Andunor over empty monster den Andunor any day.

EDIT: Let's not go down the route of making race X stronger just to get more players playing them either shall we? I'm sure no one would like to re-live the days of dragons being an automatic 5% choice with vastly superior stats to other races.

So, beyond providing new areas for monsters, you believe everything is fine as is? Nothing else should change?

[wheat wharf]

While outdated now (new numbers would be welcome), Dunshine offered here on this post a breakdown of Arelith's playerbase divided on the races they play as of last May: viewtopic.php?p=151562#p151562

As we can see, nearly half the server players humans, 45%! It's not just an Andunor reality, but a server-wide one. Humans are just everywhere. If you count, on the other hand, how many play monster races (including Duergar and Svirfs), the sum of the whole group barely reaches 10%.

Now, how can this be changed? Tough question, I don't know, but I would suggest adding incentives for players to try out monster races without shooting other races on the foot.

Cookies such as:

- Removing Monster Races from the award system (such as Imps and Hobgoblins), making them all playable out-of-the-box. This one would require a total overhaul of the system, however.

- Adding areas in the Underdark just for monsters. It doesn't need to be completely locked to everyone else but monsters, but, for example, owning quarters and stores in a Goblin-like village would be tied to Hobgoblins and Goblins only. Isn't this a similar case to the Tungsten Turret already?

- Now this may strike as odd, but what if Monsters could use the Taunt ability on hostile NPCs of their same race to turn them into temporary henchmen? I could elaborate more on a proper suggestion thread, and I imagine that lots of limitations and variables would need to be thought of too.

[ExperimentAlpha]

In my personal opinion, being outcast should be more cause for a physical brand than being a pirate. If pirates are forced to have a permanent brand, and so should Outkast. People don't want to play in Stencliffe because they are pirates if they do, and they get branded if they choose to play a pirate. So, instead, they play in Andunor, playing Outcast, and do what they we're going to be doing anyways with less mechanical repercussion.

[flower]

I was in Andunor from start. I watched various factions of monster races from goblins up to drow to try to restrict humans in city from beginning.

Wars often broke out. The result was that team to push acceptance of outcasts often intervened in multiple ways to discourage monster races from doing that.

They even took Steps so far that most new npcs were humans. Players got that message And simple gave up.

I made a new drow and witnessed what reigho described. No goblins playing And those who did were chased in streets and killed bashed. Humans boasting about wiping out goblins pest from streets,joking on goblin genocide.

It got worse even as both my drow and I knew that goblin plotting was only symbolic opposition having no impact on power standing in Andunor yet it brought them exiles and furious hatred chase.

It happened because goblins same as kobolds and gnoll cannot ever hope to get a major stance in politic.

City is terrible generic, nearly human centric now. Every race shares the very same quarters, and is dependant on two districts. This means they will almost always be vassals of someone be it drow or outcasts.

Adding various outskirts dedicated to tribal races with theme and giving them safe hideout if things go rough would encourage play for them, give them partially independent playground. It can boost their numbers too. And it would get rid of that boring generic feeling.

Also one issue of Andunor is despite it is large one faction (now any who got enough power) can reap most of the features from ship, tower, etc etc. concentrating power in their hands. Andunor needs things of kind "you can control X but then your faction cannot control Y".

[Nekonecro]

I too was in Andunor when it first came out, as a human.
When human outcasts were first put in there was a lot of attempts, as you wrote, to restrict them.
Those restrictions were often high level monsters demanding that low level human outcasts either become slaves or be killed.
There was no middle ground, it was essentially you were to be forced into this specific role or you will not play here. I'm glad the DMs cracked down on that kind of unacceptable OOC behavour.
Dispite this there was still a lot of negative behavour towards human outcasts.
It was not a surprise as those humans gained experience, became able to push back and did so to repay how they were treated.

The genociding of Goblins that you complain of was due to their IC actions agains humans to begin with.
Why should anyone be tolorant of a community that tried to have them enslaved or killed?

However I would like to point out that there have been human outcasts who worked with goblins, those actually willing to accept that humans were a part of the Underdark and simply get on with it.

As a final note I'd like to point out that in fantasy settings humans are essentially the cockroaches of the races, they're everywhere.
I'm sure some lore buff would be more than willing to post statistics of the human to monster percentages.

Instead of constantly complaining about it how about looking into methods to be inclusive and use the resources available?

[TimeAdept]

No one hangs out in Sencliff because Sencliff is not very fun to hang out in. It excludes you from vast swaths of server potential in trade for 2 rentable boats you have to argue over, a largely empty city with no one to hang out in, and a public brand that makes your life hell.

[BegoneThoth]

Why can't the ruling drow houses and monster clans just subjugate the humans in game? Seems like the most reasonable IC reaction to this IC problem...

An alternative would be a non-pirate surface settlement, with a government and elections and actual benefits for membership, for evil humans.

[reighbo]

I'd fully agree that everyone should TRY and RP in accordance within their chosen alignments : Good or Evil.
And even ... TRY ... to play threw the "good" & "bad" times.
HOWEVER ...

. No goblins playing And those who did were chased in streets and killed bashed. Humans boasting about wiping out goblins pest from streets,joking on goblin genocide.

It got worse even as both my drow and I knew that goblin plotting was only symbolic opposition having no impact on power standing in Andunor yet it brought them exiles and furious hatred chase.

If Anybody thinks THIS (and other examples) has -not- affected the overall numbers of the old "lessers" monsters , not only goblins, IE. gnolls, ... played ?
... they most likely did not play at that time ... AND ... it was over a long extended period of time.
... (about 2 IRL years). Yet still much EXPECTED to return.
Or they were perhaps busy Enjoying playing, as a surfaced raced - underdarker/or their supporters - Enjoying exterminating, the more natural, yet even further "lessers" to them selves, than even the Drow might feel, ... actual "lesser" underdarkers ...

As i for one, really kinda knows it has ...
I For one, also know of many players (too many ) that will actually now, and really EVER SINCE -refuse- to even rent within the,
... "exile/eviction" zones .... as WE know them now ... a.k.a. Districts.
... and i CANT blame them.
So really just how SAD, is that .... ?
That sad now, i'm actually, YET 100% totally and inadvertently seeing, if i DO get up to a 5th time exiled ...
Bragging Rights,
... over the Title of, Ace-Exile ...

Why can't the ruling drow houses and monster clans just subjugate the humans in game?

Because the Underdark was hit by two floods ...
Only the 1st one had anything to do with water, however
And due to MUCH of the above mentioned and otherwise posted ... OR ... the #'s of.

[TimeAdept]

I don't buy property in any settlement because of eviction, that's not an Andunor thing. I just don't want to be evicted because I play very crafting heavy characters, and losing my house means needing to carry thousands of pounds of crafting mats and essentially being non-viable to even try to play the game.

[flower]

...

The goblin thing had two parts.

What you spoke of, happened in the beginning of Andunor. And no, it was not out of middle. There were first outcasts who acted so arrogant, that the most powerful goblin faction i have ever seen here began to fight them.


However it happened like….many many years ago. Are you telling me, that events old like 3-5 months are related to it? No, They are not. Recent events involving said "genocide" of goblins has nothing to do it. OVer a year goblins held no influence in Andunor which would be worthy to mention, and said attacks and wiping goblins out happened after some plot meeting behind with other factions which could not change a single thing.


Yet it was abused fully into nearly forcing players of entire race to stop play or face constant pvp, exiles, evictions and other form of bullying. There were always three kind of groups with role play standing out in Underdark, aamazing ones, which made Underdark be Underdark. Gnolls, with their agressive and taunting approach. Kobolds with their inteligent, manipulating plotting behind, and goblins, with their careless, crazy behave. Getting rid of any of these groups means loosing a lot for UD, and double so when it is done in the manner i had to witness in person on my two characters this passed year.

[Nekonecro]

I was in Andunor from start. I watched various factions of monster races from goblins up to drow to try to restrict humans in city from beginning.

This is why I made reference to that time, you can not call out my writing when you yourself made the same reference.

Either way what it boils down to is IC actions IC consequences.
Golblins have near constantly (that "powerful" group you mentioned for most of it) called for humans to get out, leave or be enslaved.
In turn outcast humans have smacked them for it.
Well deserved in my opinion.

[Red Ropes]

As someone who has actually had a lot of experience with stuff down there, 90% of the time, one of my characters will run into some incredibly unreasonable situation brought upon them by someone down there or a group. When the UD gets very 'inactive' it often fills up with people who think `fun` is being cruel and unusual to new players. Who think they need to stalk, gang, or gank people because they happen to be from one group, or not from their religion, or whatever.

When people go and play in Andunor, you must recognize the setting. The setting is a METROPOLITAN CITY where DIVERSE PEOPLES have all agreed to KILL EACH OTHER LESS for PROFIT. Andunor isn't MONSTERSBERG, it's not LOLTH TLUMALLTON, it's Andunor.

You can be expected to be nice to each other and you should seriously learn about the setting in game and respect that this isn't Udos, or Grond, but something where various races and people are welcome to play and share the space. The problem isn't outcasts, it's people just trying to make something unfun and untenable occur.


While I have played super bad man villains and mean guys and have beat upon some people in this threads' characters- I have never, ever wanted to just crush people's funtimes, but, I will say this: if your fun times is completely and utterly ignorant of the setting as well as exclusive to other players and is not /self aware/ you're not only going to have a bad time, you're going to be hated.

This is very important, the detail of self aware.

This means that when you're playing exclusionary LOLTH TLU MALLA types who try and beat people up or create a drow racial utopia you are actually aware that 1) you will never actually achieve your goals - Andunor will never become a pure utopian state and everyone is going to hate you and beat the shit out of you and 2) with #1 in mind you accept this as your fate.

This can be extrapolated about racial RP, or whatever. Andunor will only be better and more fun if you let people grow there and do new things. Every single time I see someone doing something new and exciting only to be swarmed and smashed away by a bunch of hooting apes and driven off from doing it makes me very sad. Often times, both because of IC foundations of support, but, my desire to ensure that the setting can be abided by I will advocate and defend those people in game.

In order to create fun, you have to let new things happen, and you need to change your old things. If you want to go on playing the same tribe of goblins, you can't play them like they were in 2006, you gotta update them to now, you need to less exclusive and more inclusive. You have to adapt your concepts and characters to what Andunor is and not what was.

tl;dr of this is "guys the key to making things fun is to care less about racial RP or the olden days and adapt to the cool new Andunor which is really awesome and could be way more awesome. Yes, the UD is a place where we agree to play monsters and foul people, but, its also a place thats supposed to be shared among many kinds of people. Sometimes you'll win, sometimes you'll lose, but the fun should be made in playing and experiencing these things and not trying to fit a pyramid into a cube."

[reighbo]

I too was in Andunor when it first came out, as a human.
When human outcasts were first put in there was a lot of attempts, as you wrote, to restrict them.
Those restrictions were often high level monsters demanding that low level human outcasts either become slaves or be killed.
There was no middle ground, it was essentially you were to be forced into this specific role or you will not play here. I'm glad the DMs cracked down on that kind of unacceptable OOC behavour.
Dispite this there was still a lot of negative behavour towards human outcasts.
It was not a surprise as those humans gained experience, became able to push back and did so to repay how they were treated.

The genociding of Goblins that you complain of was due to their IC actions agains humans to begin with.
Why should anyone be tolorant of a community that tried to have them enslaved or killed?

In fact, as this i'd also know ...

The 1st amounts of "friction" upon the onset of the Outcast arrival ... was actually self-induced by them.
When the newly outcasted, and basically "refugee"(s) ...
Trying to literally order about, the local goblin monarch, if front of a few other goblins, might not be the more positive approach to "better relations" ... Nor is the saying of things like .... "Shoo, shoo." or "Get lost, you filthy goblin!" .... While its the goblins at home.
I could go on and on ...

you can not call out my writing

i can ... outright.

As outcasts mostly started off acting, Self-entitled, all important, with a -Requirement- to be flat out accepted, while not really trying to bother to understand, that they are -really- offending locals, mostly in how they treat the very important locals .... minus the Drow and likely Orogs.
(whom seemed the most accepting of them anyhow).

Either way what it boils down to is IC actions IC consequences.
Golblins have near constantly (that "powerful" group you mentioned for most of it) called for humans to get out, leave or be enslaved.
In turn outcast humans have smacked them for it.
Well deserved in my opinion.

Yes IC actions IC consequences, and so THAT friction began,

Now can you tell me much about, that "powerful" goblin group ?
When exactly goblins, under any -REAL- orders, "called for humans to get out/leave/be slaves" ?
IF actually at all ?
.... other than randomized goblin -threats- IE. "givez me yous coins, ors yous be my slaves!?!" -random sewer bratt.
And this conflict would (end???)
With the Sharps Vassled too Cordor ... IF you can EVER explain the reasoning behind that RP ?
-id be most grateful-

So yes, much, Much, MUCH, later, yet now still NOT so very long ago ....
And long after DM-Peacekeeping involvement -issuing orders of non-PVP-in the Hub- at the very least, to/for goblins.

The "em mass" exiles & evictions would "suddenly start" ... Actually carried out NOT even by Outcasts (this time) ... But an Orog that acted like one ... or favored them more ... literally giving "writts of passage", into and threw the very city, too actual surfacers
(non-outcasted) cas that still, makes great security sense ...
EVEN MY -EXILED- GOBLIN ENDED UP WITH ONE

Then an election or two later ... Even after a gnoll would rule the Sharps ...
Along came the GREAT Outcast-exterminating of goblins, and full attempts to have the clear and obvious majority goblin religion banned from the whole city.
That near now : totally hated Oogooboogoo thing (far less used today)
So yes "in turn" the outcast humans have smaked the goblins down .... down .... down for ???

And in Your Opinion it was "well deserved" ....?

Do you know anything about North American Football ... ? a "late hit penalty" ?
When a player HITs/Sacks, the quarterback, only too LONG after he has thrown/passed the ball ...?
... like while the game is LONG over, and he is trying to play golf .... then sacked.

Yes, well deserved in YOUR, opinion...

Giving us as result, among/with a few other factors,
.... the very concerns of this Thread's OP

[Nekonecro]

you can not call out my writing

i can ... outright.

You could... if it was in reference to what you said. It was not.

As for the rest of that? I could barely make heads nor tails of it sorry.
From the jist of it, seems like things didn't go your way and you're unhappy about that?

Okay.

[reighbo]

As for the rest of that? I could barely make heads nor tails of it sorry.
From the jist of it, seems like things didn't go your way and you're unhappy about that?

Thank you for trying?

Sorry i guess you just don't know North American Football ... my bad

[ForgottenBhaal]

Alright, please people. Try to keep it civil. I don't want this thread to devolve like so many others. I am not advocating for a genocide of outcast humans. I was hoping we could use this thread to try to figure out a solution to a problem that leaves a large part of the playerbase in the underdark with a bad taste in their mouth.

That does not mean that I want Udos, or Pit-town to return. I just wish that there was some drawbacks to playing an outcast, instead of how it is now.

Secondly. The devils table district, Do we really need three councilors there?

[Tomato]

Andunor should belong to monsters. Buff drow, buff monsters, give an outcast symbol, and make starting as outcast human a minor reward.
Humans should not be allowed to move between Bendir, Cordor, and Andunor willy nilly. Being an outcast is serious business. It means you have nowhere else to live, and I think that mechanically, it needs to be enforced.
Outcast human SHOULD be DM application, however, for those Humans who have nowhere else to go.


(don't remember where i stole it from but seems relevant)

[reighbo]

Try to keep it civil.

Totally, i'm just not understood / understandable.

The devils table district, Do we really need three councilors there?

I would think so, ONLY, however, so long as it remains, Drow only, (a single raced ruled district).
... Or really suffer the risk, of getting "dog-piled" upon, by suddenly unified Drows.

(i was even told/warned both in the RP & oocly that "dog-piling" would be a fact).
Yet we ALL know this isn't Udos.


If and when, a kobold or hobgoblin, whomever, can feel even "as safe/allowed", to try within an actual Devil's Table election,
as if trying within the Sharps, and with fair enough chances of winning ...?
like that will ever happen ... not
Or How many EVER tryed ?
... other than a single 1/2 Drow & a single Outcast-fully Drow supported ... and a goblin that considered it

Because the Devil's Table is nothing like Udos,
... Except for its thus far, near total Drow secluded rule, and its 3 elected leaders, similar to the expected 3 Noble Houses of Udos/& its 3 Matrons ...

Because the Sharps is nothing like Grond
... Except for its (now) single leader, and ALL the other races often equally trying to rule it, including Drow ... As numbers may/or not allow ...
Yes the Sharps is lucky to have only the 1 (after sum time) ... Yet still has ALL the rest of the UDer races including Drow much much more comfortable trying within.


One and One, very much likely the best for each District with each a more equal to amounts of races edjable to appy

[Red Ropes]

But it doesn't though. It belongs to Freth, Claddath, and the mysterious Hubmaster who all agree that humans and other races are equally garbage beneath their feet and that the city must be open to trade. Almost every single NPC in the city tells you to be more open-minded and make use of all people around you as assets.

Free humans exist in the UD and are represented in almost every single city in the UD. Even ignoring this absolute fact of the master setting lore, ANDUNOR, has free humans who are equitable individuals within its own totally unique setting.

Outcasts are not that big of a deal, people actually antagonize them when people find out where they are from, and all penalties and roleplay around them are things, that, for the most part... are FOIG. Which is how it should be! (Though oddly Laurick is a psion, and so are all the government NPCs).

Quite literally, everything around the city is designed with the mind that from the beginning a human or half-orc outcast is legit possible, and the /other races/ have to earn their way either in game, or I suppose, through a 5%. What you guys should do is just trust your fellow players more and report people who you think might be "gaming the system."


Playing a monstrous race or one of the vile betrayer races has its own penalties that playing an out-cast simply does not have and thats absolutely fine. All of these unique factors provide interesting, fun, and unique experiences people could be utilized to their own advantage in game.

Do I think Andunor could use some more isolation and more hoops for 'tourists'? Yes. Do I think it needs to be made blander by taking away options? No. It's a scummy place thats open to all nefarious peoples with their own peril. Even if surfacers lurk among you who might be spies, the thing is, that's fine!

Find out who they are!

(and KILL them in a satisfying way, and if they are being annoying weirdos just report them and let the gods sort it out!)

[reighbo]

In order to create fun, you have to let new things happen, and you need to change your old things. If you want to go on playing the same tribe of goblins, you can't play them like they were in 2006, you gotta update them to now, you need to less exclusive and more inclusive. You have to adapt your concepts and characters to what Andunor is and not what was.

..... Ok ?
Wait, what ?
Oddly, i guess, i thought i most ALWAYS was trying, to create fun, and MORE so for others, than ever myself.
(plays a long time GOBLIN after all).

And i can even recall letting new "things" happen, as did others before me ...
I started playing a goblin in 2011 ... the fact that this, very same faction, was actually UP and running as far back as 2006 -on into- 2018 ?
Actually says a lots about how much fun it REALLY was ... and for so very long ... without break ...
Likely the -oldest-non-stoped-running- faction ON this server ?

Did you know Or even hear about -ANY-, of our goblin-faction's up-dated/changes ?
like any at all ?
Like say just ... IE, the Differences in each of its 4 Chiefs ... Their expectations, Or how EACH would change the Faction ?
Or any REAL, yet rather drastic changes at all ...?
i can FULLY understand, if not, as i'm more SHOCKED when anyone actually bothers within the RP/even OOCly, to ask or inquire.
Unless they are playing a goblin ...
Was a BIG deal made even about the many OTHER goblin religions ... all the while i can actually still count off 1 hand (minus any thumbs) the actual amount of times, i was actually ever asked about, goblin's deity worship.
So that would be 3-4 times within about 7 IRL years of playing total.

Need to be "less exclusive" ?
can ANYONE name me, ... ANYONE at all, and of ANY race played,
...That would actually attempt to join the Goblin faction, and get refused, turned down, or turned away ...?
You do know, it has contained more than just goblins/hobgoblins?
Ogres, Orogs, Imps, a Gnoll, a Drow, even a Dwarf-or-Duraguer (thing), a Svirf, and then sum slaves also (races of vary)
And goblins/hobgoblins NEVER forced to join ... Yet they do, have, and still will, even after I've actively stopped recruiting.

But it doesn't though. It belongs to
Freth, Claddath, and the mysterious Hubmaster

Yes that very same House Claddath -witnessed- conducting attacks on rather important city figures ...
if front of yet more credible witnesses, resulting in having goblins RAID their home within the Sharps ...
(sanctioned/approved by the Devil's Table's Arch-priestess prior).
Removing the Head of Matron Claddath, to offer it as a Spider Temple's "gift".
Yes she' had lost her "respect" & her head ... quit sum time ago

(yet the Claddath hostile Scouts since DEV. removed, as they DID not wish the perma-removal of that NPC House threw the actions of players)

But IF the Sharps is owned by House Claddath,
And the Devil's Table owned by House Freth,
the Hub owned by the Hubmaster,
(wont debate that ever).
if/WHEN a DM choose to activate them ...?

Then stands to the very same logical reasoning, that the very : Eye of Andunor ... is mine ? Goblins ?
You did know whom(s), actually fought and acquired it 1st, from sum Sea-Demi-God fishy monster & fishy minions right ?
And without that Eye ... (i was told) ... the Claddath & Freth & Hubmaster,
would not have been able to even figure out, the location to build the city in the 1st place.
Thanks to actually goblins, they did.
Yet how soon they ALL forget, and naturally so, as goblins are easy too forget ... and most wished forgotten.
Yet ... i can still recall a DM inquiring with me ... as to where i had re-placed it to, after its capture.
(in the Grondhouse)
I've tryed to get that Eye back, Yet a lasso wont do ...

[MineTurtle]

This topic feels like it's getting very emotional and personal for multiple participants. I'm sure we've all had our bad experiences in game, but can I encourage people to step back from that, or I'd expect this topic will go the way of some many other underdark topics of the past.

[The1Kobra]

I also played in the days when Andunor just came out. I can speak from a kobold perspective that as it was, the place was so hostile to my kobold PC that he literally once fled to the surface for safety. If that sounds completely insane, here's what it was like:

My kobold PC got PKed a lot when he was low level. Usually from drow who wanted to either kill or enslave any 'lessers'. This ironically, naturally got him some alliances of interest with the various outcast humans. He naturally developed quite some sympathy for them because the drow treated kobolds in much the same manner. Andunor in those days had a lot of PvP in the city. The hub was literally more dangerous than many dungeon zones, (not to mention it was harder to gain XP and XP losses from death were more severe back then). As a low level kobold? It was a very hostile environment.

Now, over time, this gradually changed. Andunor's political landscape changed, the non-drow gained more power, and several wars were fought. The changes came about from a long series of struggles, and what we have now is where we ended up.

I will say this though, for the monster races, if they get kicked out of Andunor, as has been done in the past for a few, they really don't have any other settlement they can go to. Outcast humans really do have the best of both worlds in that if they end up on the losing end of one of Andunor's disputes, they can flee to one of the surface settlements. Unless they gain a lot of notoriety, they won't be killed on sight as most "monsters" would. It can be particularly nasty because an evil monster PC who gets kicked out of Andunor will likely have nowhere else to go and little to do but get stomped everywhere. Outcasts will really only be "outcasts" from the surface if the surfacer PCs want to treat them as such, and there's plenty of places where they won't.

That's just what being a human or half-orc involves though. It has benefits that other PCs won't get, because it's just natural for surfacers to be friendlier to humans than "monsters", even if that human is horribly evil. I suppose one thing that could be done is making outcast status something that can be done in game only rather than something taken at the start, but that will likely come with complications of it's own.

[flower]

I find it hilarious that someone even implies on Underdark server, people are not expected to center their role play around their race.

Like lol. Why then keep these races in the game, if everyone acts like ordinary human. While Andunor is megalopolis, the main fun comes from clashes of different racial behave and acting, from multiple religions competeting with each other.

What is hardly any fun is unified single body under single leader who directs all conflict and role play effort to the simple, boring scheme of UD vs surface.

We then do not need races at all, just make everyone same race and theme city in this regard. It is themed as multi racial thing.

Also, attempts to exterminate a race goes clearly against rules. Because it is ignoring environment where goblins (and similar monster breeds) should be most numerous population of city if NPCs were actually spawned around.

Edit: role playing a race does not mean to wage crusade on others. I love how mr Red Ropes calls for trust in fellow players but at same times tosses accusation that people who call for better monster race presence in city are playing simple minded characters focused on killing non faithful / non kin.

[Hexgoblin]

The considerable amount of humans in the Underdark honestly can't be surprising to anyone. Here are a few reasons that come to mind.

1) There have been some stellar roleplayers with a great deal of traction and ability to take initiative playing outcast characters over the last year, mostly centered in the Sharps. I'm primarily a drow player myself, but more often than not find my drow characters gravitating towards outcasts when it comes to making allies or business associates -- purely due to how dependable their leadership have proven in regards to presenting quality roleplay.

Meanwhile I can do business with other drow, and receive some barely legible textbook interpretation of Lolthitism as the sole defining feature of the majority around me, along with the odd spot of impotent *smirks*-tier intrigue.

Racial stereotypes are a foundation to build on. Something that makes up a character backstory and shapes their early views. Something that evolves over time, to better adapt and take advantage of a setting. Not a character's defining feature.

No, I am not saying that drow should stray from being drow, or that goblins should cease being goblins in using the example above. I'm saying that they need to accept a balance between what it means to represent their race, and being compelling characters to interact with. Characters that aren't compelling will either always take a backseat in the public eye, or be catered to by having a setting built around them, which lands you something like Udos Dro'Xun.

I played the Ul'faeruk(arch-wizard) of Udos for a full real life year back in the day. It was not a good place to be, and without the good friends that I was fortunate to have with me, said character would have lasted far shorter. Udos was just a whole lot of people that you were forced to acknowledge, because the setting as opposed to their accomplishments told you that they deserved it. The city withered as a result.

2) This one's a lot more apparent. The combination of Wharftown being destroyed, Sencliff catering specifically to the pirate theme, and the overall political or race-centric climate present everywhere else on the surface drastically shut down accommodations for evil character concepts up above. Today, Andunor is just the obvious choice for an evil human PC to be either created in, or migrate to once things above go sour. Your only other options are being a pirate, being a Banite, or being very deeply undercover. It's harder to "make it" as an evil PC on the surface today than it was a few years ago, with most of the people who'd support you having bled into the Underdark, giving the opposition plentiful time to cement.

A solution to this could be an expansion of Sencliff, to a point where it's ran by... let's say a cabal of morally dubious mages who're famous for EMPLOYING pirates, as opposed to being pirates themselves. At that point, pirate characters would still be a prominent element of the setting, but not a concept prerequisite for others seeking to base operations out of there.

Who knows.