Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

[MissEvelyn]

If you are having issues with one line RP, it is far, FAR better to report said issues than to risk getting in trouble yourself. There may be parts of the story you (players in general) don't know, or we may not be aware that Johnny BadGuy is doing this. Do remember, there are about fifteen of us, and over two thousand of you guys. We rely on your help because we cannot be everywhere and see everything. Reports are our "eyes in the dark", so to speak.

This is where I both groan on your behalf and at the same time I'm super grateful you guys are doing what you're doing. How many PvP encounters happen daily? And how many of those are reported? I don't even want to think about the stash of reports DMs have to go through.

And that's just PvP! Then there's the other ones, your classic monster in town, griefers, rulebreakers, and etc. Yikes! Thank you for your service =)

[TroubledWaters]

It's way too trivial to extract yourself from IC conflict with a lens. The ubiquity of lenses and their use for this purpose seems to contradict the server's ethos that IC actions have consequences. Players take advantage of other players who follow the PvP rules of not attacking without RP by making their first bit of "RP" their lens. This is well known, which makes the playerbase overall more trigger-happy when it comes to PvP as we want to preempt a lens attempt.

Even if you shoot someone with a bow, they can still portal away as long as the dialogue window is open. That window opens right after using the lens, giving other players very little time to react and interrupt.

A one or two round "windup" time would be a great solution to this issue. People would still be able to use lenses to travel around or go home when they have an OOC commitment. In PvP, they could even haste/invis to flee to a different map and quickly fire off the lens. However, they would not be able to lens out mid-conversation, abusing the other party's trust to not PvP until RP happens.

Edit: In case you want to say that the same thing can be accomplished with -teleport, darkness, gsanc, or other IC means, those all require some character-based decisions and do have a good amount of IC counters. Lenses are freely available to all for a cost of about 5-10 minutes of grind and are only countered by epic Abj mages and this counter doesn't even work when the lens is pre-loaded (which happens fairly often).

[Tranquility]

I decided to chime in on this one, since it brings up some thigns I've dealt with myself.

1. You're going to meet good and bad players in the game, cause it's just like the world. Full of nice and horrible people both. If something is to change, make sure the good people are not influenced.

2. It's a game, learn how to take it easy. I used to have the mentality of must win, taking any accomplishments/setbacks on my char, very very personal. Best thing I ever did was stop playing that char, let it go though it took me years to do. Suddenly I felt very silly for taking a game that serious and personal. My new chars became more about "everyone winning", everyone having a nice experience. Sure you'll run into the odd griefer or two, but reporting works, really, try it.

3. I've noticed a few places where it's brought up that people lense to avoid rp. This is not true, they are not trying to avoid rp, they are trying to avoid rp on your terms, being steamrolled. I have had chars where I encourage people to lense off in tells, cause I didn't see either of us being happy with me killing them, and since we both knew it was the only possibly outcome. Sending people a quick friendly tell, can also go a long way. If you show as a player, that you take into account the feelings of the player behind the char you are in conflict with, it tends to encourage people to play ball to some extent or at least enter into a dialogue about how it can get better for all involved.

I get it can be nice to keep all these things ig, but that then leaves a lot of room for mistakes and misinterpretation. Show respect for the other players you share this world with, consider their fun too, even if your chars absolutely hate each other. It gets way more fun this way actually, since it becomes totally clear that its just your chars that hate each other, not the players. Communication can really avoid much harm and hurt feelings. If one does however want to win, one is not likely to care about anyone elses feelings, and just wants easier ways to win, and this quickly becomes appearent through their actions and statements.

[TroubledWaters]

3. I've noticed a few places where it's brought up that people lense to avoid rp. This is not true, they are not trying to avoid rp, they are trying to avoid rp on your terms, being steamrolled.

There is conflict in Arelith. There are pirates, there are evil characters, there are ultra-smite paladins. These are also players, and if one uses the ability to ignore them with one click, he forces them to RP on his own terms, which is where his character can say/do what he pleases and escape without facing any IC consequences.

If that's the game, then fine. But it's really hard to claim that IC actions have consequences with lenses working in their current form without any windup time.

[Tranquility]

I have never seen people rush lense when I approached them nice and friendly in a tell. Mouthing off and lensing must be a problem I just haven't faced, or my approach meant they didn't feel like doing that. Even so, they are fleeing, escaping, in utter fear of you, no matter what they just said, it's called being a hypocrite, say one thing, do another. Actions speak for themselves. Bring those ic consequenses to them IC if you feel you must. Hire an assasin, discredit them as cowards, hire an ilussionist so send them images of balors haunting them, or to discredit them with their goodie allies. There are better ways than finding a mechanical way to control it. It's a question of what you can do, not what you can make the other player do.

I suppose it's one of those cases of different opinions and that's just that.

[flower]

3. I've noticed a few places where it's brought up that people lense to avoid rp. This is not true, they are not trying to avoid rp, they are trying to avoid rp on your terms, being steamrolled.

There is conflict in Arelith. There are pirates, there are evil characters, there are ultra-smite paladins. These are also players, and if one uses the ability to ignore them with one click, he forces them to RP on his own terms, which is where his character can say/do what he pleases and escape without facing any IC consequences.

If that's the game, then fine. But it's really hard to claim that IC actions have consequences with lenses working in their current form without any windup time.

Wow. what conseqences has dieing in pvp encounter?

I will tell you.

0.


Consequences follow the actions of characters. Lensing off and leaving friend behind has consequences of loosing said friend. Facing alone three bad guys just ends up in pointless dead with no consequences.


There are no and will never be any consequences for entering UD or surface. The world is open to any character and none owns it. Yes, you can try and kill surfacer in Ud but it does not enforce any consequences (loss of prestige maybe, but no loss of social standing, levels, items, anything).


Are you interested in role play or killing the guy? If the first then i do not understand how person lensing off can ever bother you. Just go on and pick on another. It all just sounds like people are focused on getting the others killed and thus lenses ruin their fun with it.Who cares that someone runs mounth before lensing? It has zero impact on game, or even negative on the one running, big talks do not get along with cowerdice.

[mourisson1]

Wow. what conseqences has dieing in pvp encounter?

I will tell you.

0.

Wrong.

If you engage in a player versus player conflict with someone and either of you dies, then do not interact with the other character for 24 Real life hours. You may run into each other by accident, but in that case, it's the responsibility of each player to quickly and quietly take their character somewhere else. This helps with the RP that someone did, in fact, die, and takes them out of the conflict for a while, without forcing anything as drastic as a permadeath on any player. It also gives everyone a chance to cool off a little, and avoid the nasty little scenario where the dead person immediately comes back for revenge, someone dies, they come back, wash, rinse, repeat. We highly encourage you to resist the desire to rush right back in to "finish business." Each player will be held accountable for their own actions in such matters.

So, if you engage someone, and kill him, lets say in underdark, the player most likely wont run to underdark again, because as i understand it, he SHOULD try to avoid the encounter with winner. On the other hand, since this applies only to death, if someone lens away, he can as well rush there back again, and even bring a 20man paladin raid with him.

Consequences follow the actions of characters. Lensing off and leaving friend behind has consequences of loosing said friend. Facing alone three bad guys just ends up in pointless dead with no consequences.

Wrong. It has a consequence written and quoted from wiki by me.

There are no and will never be any consequences for entering UD or surface. The world is open to any character and none owns it. Yes, you can try and kill surfacer in Ud but it does not enforce any consequences (loss of prestige maybe, but no loss of social standing, levels, items, anything).

Wrong. I remember the great play pulled out by some UD guys, who absolutely discredited a surfacer who was roaming underdark by making it look like he cooperated with Andunor, losing social standing and prestige.

Are you interested in role play or killing the guy? If the first then i do not understand how person lensing off can ever bother you. Just go on and pick on another. It all just sounds like people are focused on getting the others killed and thus lenses ruin their fun with it.Who cares that someone runs mounth before lensing? It has zero impact on game, or even negative on the one running, big talks do not get along with cowerdice.

Both. Because it fits together, according to setting.

Few have ever reached to the depths of Deepearth and returned to tell their tale.

Underdark, according to wiki description IS deadly, dangerous and dark. Dangerous creatures LIVES there. It is a nightmare. People dont go there for holiday. These creatures that live here are deadly, they kill the surfacers, because they have no reason not to do so. It IS their domain, as they live there. It is UP TO THEM what they do with a surfacer, and according to the rule i quoted before, killing is one of the ways how to prevent them from coming back again in a cycle. There IS a condition after you release, making your stat lower, so you wont immediately run out and run to the UD or any dungeon again. And what is bad about lensing if I am interested in roleplay? The fact that no roleplay happens then? Maybe? Mind you I DO play Epic Abjurer. I DO -ward teleport on a sighting anyone who is not with me in UD. And since the prelensing is an exploit now, lenses does NOT affect my gameplay as much as they do for others. Stil I say some wind up time would be good.

[flower]

None of you listed has nothing to do with pvp.


And no, underdark is dangerous, perhaps. But people who enter it regularly face off epic dragons, fight ilithids, giants, trolls.

If They kill ancient dragons on daily bases and raid manor like places with one hand holding a cookie, why should fear UD with (mostly) inferior npcs to them.


UD players demand so often surface ones to fear them.


Yet when these characters fear yours and lens off in panic and fear immedietly, you are angered. Lol.

[mourisson1]

None of you listed has nothing to do with pvp.

PVP rule i listed has nothing to do with PvP? Im done here man, you just dont read posts, and then you randomly react.

[flower]

None of you listed has nothing to do with pvp.

PVP rule i listed has nothing to do with PvP? Im done here man, you just dont read posts, and then you randomly react.

24hrs from pvp rule is there to prevent OOC issue not to enforce any IG consequences.

You cannot dictate how other player plays/will play. Until you get rid of this mindset, you will have issue with lens.

[Ork]

I mean, I can't believe I'm saying this but flower is 100% in the right on this. However, if people are avoiding consequences then that's worth reporting. In the end the consequences your looking for are only possible if people "play ball".

[TroubledWaters]

Flower's main point is that IC actions don't have consequences, which seems to run counter to what is generally repeated on the wiki, discord, and forums.

I guess this is true, as lenses without windup time are a way of ensuring that your character will not see any IC consequences for its actions if you choose not to have them.

[flower]

Flower's main point is that IC actions don't have consequences, which seems to run counter to what is generally repeated on the wiki, discord, and forums.

I guess this is true, as lenses without windup time are a way of ensuring that your character will not see any IC consequences for its actions if you choose not to have them.

No, pvp mostly has no consequences. PVP is irrelevant, story is what drives here on Arelith. We play for role play, not for pvp primaly. Or i do hope so.

[Ork]

It's not that PvP has no consequences, it's that consequences can only be self-imposed. If you are beaten up by some drow, the onus is on you, the defeated, to roleplay that consequence. Great roleplayers always roleplay consequences despite if the encounter was bad.

However, we cant expect everyone to do that. This is a game where we play solely for fun. Therefore if you can make the consequence fun, players are more likely to roll with it.

So, if you're griping that an encounter was bs because they ported away instantly, do some self reflection to find how you could make the next encounter more fun for the other player.

[TroubledWaters]

Mechanical PvP is a form of story. Conflict is part of story and PvP has many different forms, some of which involve attacking other characters.

If you are RPing towards different ends than mine, then we are in PvP- even if we aren't swinging at each other. If the conflict continues, then our PvP might come to blows.

Lenses in their current iteration enable people to PvP without any IC consequences. I don't think it's very far off from griefing.

[Ork]

It's not good roleplay when people avoid consequences but there's nothing we as players can do about it. We can make our encounter fun however, and that will increase the chance the encounter's consequences are respected on both sides. Sometimes that doesn't work, so that's when reports should be compiled.

However, again, there's really nothing we can do about other people.

[TroubledWaters]

Mechanical PvP is one of the mechanisms we have to enforce consequences in an IC manner.

If we can't do that because lenses are instant and still abused, I guess we could always just deal with them OOC and ignore/avoid RPing with them.

[flower]

Mechanical PvP is one of the mechanisms we have to enforce consequences in an IC manner.

If we can't do that because lenses are instant and still abused, I guess we could always just deal with them OOC and ignore/avoid RPing with them.

You cannot enforce anything. Only DM can enforce something.

[Ork]

That's hardly a solution. The fact that they fled is just as effective as a kill-bash. You won, if you care about that.

[flower]

Mechanical PvP is a form of story. Conflict is part of story and PvP has many different forms, some of which involve attacking other characters.

If you are RPing towards different ends than mine, then we are in PvP- even if we aren't swinging at each other. If the conflict continues, then our PvP might come to blows.

Lenses in their current iteration enable people to PvP without any IC consequences. I don't think it's very far off from griefing.

How are you being griefed by people who RUN from you? This is turned upside down.

[TroubledWaters]

You cannot enforce anything. Only DM can enforce something.

If your character can't do anything, why bother playing this game? Why do people play as guards? Why do people join factions if they are not allowed to influence the world around them?

How are you being griefed by people who RUN from you? This is turned upside down.

You might understand better once you meet a character that pickpockets you and spreads rumors/does other negative things to hurt your character. That easy out they get from the portal lens ensures you'll never be able to do anything about it and you'll just have to accept them dictating your character's story.

That's hardly a solution. The fact that they fled is just as effective as a kill-bash. You won, if you care about that.

You only get your PP'd items back if you kill them within a few minutes, I believe.

[flower]

You cannot enforce anything. Only DM can enforce something.

If your character can't do anything, why bother playing this game? Why do people play as guards? Why do people join factions if they are not allowed to influence the world around them?

How are you being griefed by people who RUN from you? This is turned upside down.

You might understand better once you meet a character that pickpockets you and spreads rumors/does other negative things to hurt your character. That easy out they get from the portal lens ensures you'll never be able to do anything about it and you'll just have to accept them dictating your character's story.

That's hardly a solution. The fact that they fled is just as effective as a kill-bash. You won, if you care about that.

You only get your PP'd items back if you kill them within a few minutes, I believe.

But you mix two things up. You cannot enforce how other people play. Only dm. Killing anyone is not going to put any consequences on them but respawn and death penalties. And what? They will not stop coming to UD/surface because of that. They will not stop coming into a dungeon where you killed them. They will not stop coming into the city, if they do not want themselves. You cannot enforce anything by pvp.

You can shift the world by storylinie. But PVP is only side tool to that, not the main tool of characters. There are consequences. You become pirate, you are known by mark. THAT is consequence of something. You trade with Andunor and are revelead and exiled. THAT is also consequence. But just killing someone on random encounter because they did not manage to lens off quickly is not going to put any consequences on them.

There were/are characters who constantly smear mine. And my character cannot do anything about it but let others speak on her behalf. Tere are people who believe because race they have anyone would trust them and it partly works for them. And you know what? PVPIng those people would change nothing. Even if she killed them daily. No, pvp will not help you in that.


And i never let those to dictate me their play. Without a single pvp with them.

[Revelations]

No matter which mechanic you employ, PvP, exile, eviction - It all comes down to the same thing:

The nature and degree of "consequences" is for the other player to decide.

Mechanically, all of those measures only do one thing: Temporarily put people in a different place.
A lense does exactly the same thing.

That's all there is to it, from a macroscopic viewpoint.



There a possible other aspect why one might expect it goes further than that:

-The assumption that you have, and the implication that you want power over another player

For the record, that's bad. And not even "bad roleplay" bad, but rather basic mindset bad.



There's also a weird notion of people lensing out being the griefers that put an end to any sort of conflict on an OOC level.

Well... That's not what it is. Escaping with a lense is still IC. And there are still consequences.

You know what's more fun than player A calling his friends B and C to confront and killbash player D?
Furthering conflict, involving more people. Someone did something and you didn't like it, but then they portalled out?
Cool! It's not like they're out of the game. Hold meetings, make plans, get people involved, make it a faction v faction thing, hold people responsible, demand surrender, demand people delivered to you, conquer a settlement.. Whatever. Make something out of it!

Or don't, and live with it.



EDIT: We play this game to tell stories together. Not to win. We only have as much impact as other players allow. We don't get to shape the world/others, the world/others decides if it wants to take the shape you suggest.

[TroubledWaters]

But you mix two things up. You cannot enforce how other people play. Only dm. Killing anyone is not going to put any consequences on them but respawn and death penalties. And what? They will not stop coming to UD/surface because of that. They will not stop coming into a dungeon where you killed them. They will not stop coming into the city, if they do not want themselves. You cannot enforce anything by pvp.

If I am playing a guard or faction member and you do something against my town or faction, I can absolutely enforce how you play. If you are verbally attacking or threatening my character, my character can and will respond.

Once my character does that, the attacker suffers the penalty of the respawn debuff and losing its gold. Seems a fair trade. But the current form of lenses ensures that people can play aggressively without any repercussions because they know they can get out quickly. It promotes lousy, consequence-free RP and contributes to more of an action server feeling than it does an RP server.

[Durvayas]

No matter which mechanic you employ, PvP, exile, eviction - It all comes down to the same thing:

The nature and degree of "consequences" is for the other player to decide.

Mechanically, all of those measures only do one thing: Temporarily put people in a different place.
A lense does exactly the same thing.

That's all there is to it, from a macroscopic viewpoint.



There a possible other aspect why one might expect it goes further than that:

-The assumption that you have, and the implication that you want power over another player

For the record, that's bad. And not even "bad roleplay" bad, but rather basic mindset bad.



There's also a weird notion of people lensing out being the griefers that put an end to any sort of conflict on an OOC level.

Well... That's not what it is. Escaping with a lense is still IC. And there are still consequences.

You know what's more fun than player A calling his friends B and C to confront and killbash player D?
Furthering conflict, involving more people. Someone did something and you didn't like it, but then they portalled out?
Cool! It's not like they're out of the game. Hold meetings, make plans, get people involved, make it a faction v faction thing, hold people responsible, demand surrender, demand people delivered to you, conquer a settlement.. Whatever. Make something out of it!

Or don't, and live with it.



EDIT: We play this game to tell stories together. Not to win. We only have as much impact as other players allow. We don't get to shape the world/others, the world/others decides if it wants to take the shape you suggest.

This is well put.