Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

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Cave Johnson
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Cave Johnson » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:37 pm

I agree I think the lenses getting upped in price would make them more cautiously used in case of emergency. Truly it might help enrich rp given it makes fleeing harder and perhaps people actually can be taken prisoner instead. Plenty encounters are out there where someone sees trouble and instantly lenses out not saying a single word or contributing to rp what so ever. This isn't about securing pvp victories it's pretty much the same argument that was made last year when resurrection scrolls were removed from npc shops and quadrupled in price. Res scrolls were limited.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by The Rambling Midget » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:39 pm

Rooshi49 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:32 pm
I'm not talking about taking them away! Where did this idea sprout from?
It sprouted from your original post, which clearly stated that your reasons for wanting the change were in regards to PvP and character interaction before you edited it. The post you're quoting was also from before you edited yours. If you've moved on to other reasons, then disregard all of it.
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flower
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by flower » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:48 pm

How making them expansive Will prevent people to lens out? They Will keep Them for that case.

How it will support role play when you would force player into it?

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Amineh123 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:03 pm

Personally, I'd leave them as they are. They're not that cheap to buy them in bundles, also not that expensive to consider if I can afford a lens, or better buy something else instead.

From my point of view of a casual player, I use lens probably more than a regular player, due to high risk of having to suddenly stop and logout (reason is kids, mostly).
At the same time, I play less and can afford less, so making lenses even more expensive forces my character to live on the edge of poverty, just because I don't have enough time to grind.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Rooshi49 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:08 pm

Amineh123 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:03 pm
Personally, I'd leave them as they are. They're not that cheap to buy them in bundles, also not that expensive to consider if I can afford a lens, or better buy something else instead.

From my point of view of a casual player, I use lens probably more than a regular player, due to high risk of having to suddenly stop and logout (reason is kids, mostly).
At the same time, I play less and can afford less, so making lenses even more expensive forces my character to live on the edge of poverty, just because I don't have enough time to grind.
Sounds reasonable, it doesn't have to change in price. Not wanting it to change in price though doesn't mean you have to be against changing them at all.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:11 pm

Rooshi49 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:32 pm
I think that prison RP should work more along the lines of Slave RP, once you commit to it its hard to get out of the situation. Not everyone has a pocket abjurationalist. Do I agree that finding one and using one is the best answer? Sure. But the fact that one can just say: "Sure I'll do some prison RP" and then 5 seconds into it decides to just teleport out with a lens feels so very wrong.
From the Arelith Wiki:

http://wiki.arelith.com/Twenty_four_hours_rule
As a suggestion, If you accept an offer of resurrection from the person/group that killed you, remember that you are now their prisoner and consider refraining from playing any escape or rescue attempts for a while to let the narrative draw out.
Whilst I can see where yu're coming from, and I even sympathise with it a little, some factors most be taken into account:

1) Players will always be free to respawn from death. Whilst this is the case, you can never force a player to engage in capture rp. As such, what you are essentialy simply doing is forcing players into choosing between being forced to go along with your rp, or else loosing xp. You will not get both.

2) The difficultes avaiable to casual players, as outlined elsewhere.

3) Whilst you yourself may not abuse this and be an excellent sport at every opportunty, consider the amount of abuse from less skilled players. This change would surely result in:
*More PvP deaths
*More PvP complaints
*More Death Bashes
*More chance of rule breaks reguarding capture/torture rp.
*More difficulty for players with limited playtime to enjoy this server to the full
*More work for us getting players out of difficult situations (e.g. capture rules broken, or just being stuck somewhere accidentally.

I'm not sure that the pros that you describe are worth the above cons. Though that is only my own opinion.
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by msterswrdsmn » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:19 pm

I'm not really seeing anything wrong with lenses now. Nor can I recall a ton of issues where people lensing out was a thing.

As far as the Suggestion quoted goes, I found it weird that it came off in a way that kinda sounded like (I'm going to horribly mangle and paraphrase this, but) "I don't like people getting out of me pvping them. Remove lenses so that they have no choice but to face pvp I push on them".

You don't like people escaping from your pvp, so you're removing their escape option so now they MUST pvp?

90% of the time i've used lenses or seen people use lenses it was to get out of a dangerous area because RL came knocking and they had to go. Or they hit their "F THIS" level in the desert/abyss after wandering in circles for hours. It was very much a minority of the times i've seen them used when by players to escape pvp.

As for rp before lensing...that kinda goes both ways. If 15 people are silently circling around you and buffing with clear intent to plow over your lone character, why WOULD you stick around for that? Its been gone over before that "hostile rp" doesn't exactly start with pvp. Blatant prepping for pvp is usually the start of whats considered hostile.

As a sidenote: theres been a shadow rule going around of "thou shall rp before lensing". Not actually a rule. Not exactly good form, but theres nothing stopping someone from lensing out immeditely if they choose to (provided nothing is mechanically stopping them). A lot of times i've run into player-hate from lensing out, I -tried- to rp. But when only one person out of 6 bothers to respond while the rest start buffing and cutting off all escape routes? Yeah, sorry. I can't justify standing around waiting for the first response to be "DIE DIE DIE" followed immediately by 40-some rolls vs various forms of damage and death.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by dominantdrowess » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:35 pm

No. I don't like people lensing out because they CANNOT kill me, when I'm trying to talk to them in RP and if they cannot kill me, I'd like to force them to interact a little OR not put themselves into situations (such as hanging out in the Underdark) where they're obviously looking for trouble if they're not going to talk at all.

If you're outgunned? You gotta make RP concessions. I do it when I'm outgunned. It's part of living in a world with other people who have opposing goals. When people refuse to make concessions, they either immediately attack, or they lens. This is not RP.

I can think of only three instances where I've consciously NOT offered a player a way out:

Code: Select all

Surfacers picking on newbies in a grind zone.. trying to demand tribute from every Underdarker they encountered.

"Don't like it? You know where to find me." After they earthquaked fixtures I just paid to have repaired, right in front of me.

And a time where my character went with a crowd, and halberds, looking for an elven sacrifice for the Temple,
to get a friend off of heresy charges in The Temple of Lolth -- but I personally feel that was a proper use of subdual
and walking the prisoner back on foot allowed a lot of rescue opportunity.
Every other time I can think of, my character was either attacked first, being confronted with intent -to- provoke or attack, or the other player was actively buffing themselves in order to get up to 70 AC (or otherwise gain tactical advantage) forcing my hand to avoid defeat ... or refused to comply with demands like: "Give us that invalid writ of passage, it's six years expired and I won't allow you to keep trying to fool people with it."

But a majority of these interactions where I feel I -should- be able to, through a show of force (where actually using the force would have no impact, showing that you -have- force is the intent) ... and say: "Hey. We could screw you up ... but we're trying to put a stop to this behavior that brought us out here." ... people just lens.

No RP. No talking. It's kinda silly to me. And they don't just lens 1 on 1. They lens en masse. And there is only one feat in the entire game to stop them from doing so... ONE epic feat at the end of a chain of other feats.

Even worse? -Ward doesn't work properly. If you activate a lens before the -ward is put down? And you sit there with the menu open? You can STILL get out by "preloading" your lens even 30 seconds after a -ward teleport is put down. And you can do this while you are hit in the face with a throwing axe.

I've personally witnessed this.

Sometimes? People who act in anti-social ways deserve to get killed for the health of the multiplayer environment. Sometimes? Those people need to learn to talk better to avoid it, and compromise with other people rather than being given a pass to act however they want at the low low cost of 3,500 gold.

The worst part is? if you actually get the -ward teleport ability? People OOCly act like you're somehow the villain for preventing them from doing something they naturally do in so many situations: Teleport away from anyone trying to stop them from acting how they want. Even when those individuals are not as innocent as many have presented in this thread.

I am a person who often walks and grinds alone. I move alone through an often hostile town, I frequent grind zones alone. Sometimes I go sailing alone. My character is a terrible duelist, with limited access to buffs, built suboptimally. Doing these things and having these experiences does not change my opinion to the defensive.

I honestly cannot think of an instance of Solo PvP where my character has won... and I -still- think lenses need to be addressed. They'd honestly be -more- balanced than they are now if using one dropped a portal at your feet or they had some kind of timer before you had to reuse them.

This is about the effort and frustration of a large number of people, and the politics involved in organizing said, people ... being countered by ANYONE ... regardless of class and feats and often without counter-play ... for 3,500 gold. Not about its convenience.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Echohawk » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:21 pm

In my experience, limited to the two years I've been here there are those who come to play, and there are those who come to win.

One example that sticks out in my mind was when I was very green on the server, a drow raid happening in the coal mines, I didn't even know at the time that one should ask before giving a raise to someone who interacted with pvp in that same scene. I was only focused on all these people with death timers and such.
Nothing ill came of it, but the drow I helped sent me a tell asking if I'd taken his lense. Of course I was confused, thinking 'wait I have no ability to reach into his inventory, so I'll be honest and say no I didn't.' Of course I didn't know they were asking for narrative reasons, they lensed, and I felt dumb for a bit, but also a little happy they got away.

That is someone who is playing, in my mind, in the right way. Or at least a way I feel includes mechanics along with the story. Someone who's willing to take a loss, etc.

I've also been on the receiving end of being hunted and unable to lense, there are people who know the current mechanics extremely well and kept me pinned in a situation I would have of course rather gotten out of by any means needed. But was rather denied that chance through the limitations of inability to utilize these escape methods in combat.

Personally I don't think further limitations should be placed, nor prices adjusted, or any changes as is. Anything to limit them I feel leans towards putting emphasis on the mechanics of the game even further. And while people might not take satisfaction in a lack of roleplay pre-escape, those who are the targets/fleeing know all too well that even giving those who are willing to pvp a matter of seconds can deny them the chance to escape a predictable defeat. And I think that would very much serve to sour the experience of the server in general. This is merely my opinion, stance, and experiences as such.
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Ramza » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:24 pm

Well.. As someone who PvPs often. The only real issue I see of lenses is when people premtively use them and keep up the Menu. They normally then tend to walk up and offer a few lines of general sass before getting hostiled and instantly porting away. Most I would see done is to remove the ability to keep the portal menu open while walking around. Or have it close after a short time.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by WanderingPoet » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:42 pm

Rooshi49 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:32 pm
All I'm talking about I really want is a discussion about how I think they're /NOT/ okay as they are and how they could potentially be changed to make the game more entertaining for everyone.

I get it, lenses arn't the only thing one can do, but I think lenses as they are, are too easy of an answer. Not everyone has something that can stop someone from lensing out though. To say that you should ALWAYS have an epic abjurationalist to counter something that costs 2250 gold is just absurd to me. Every other option other than lensing out that you mentioned seems like an awesome and great way to deal with the situation. And I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but I'm not talking about removing lenses, I just think that there really isn't enough time to actually have that moment of seeing someone and actually typing out: "Hey you, if you reach for a lens I'll attack!" or even hostiling someone. Sometimes I don't even want to auto-hostile someone because it might not even turn out to be a hostile encounter. You also have to RP with someone first before you go and attack / spellcast at them.

All in all, from the standpoint of lenses in pvp, I think it cheapens the experience. I don't want to force anyone into doing anything that they don't want to, but I think there should be some gravitas to walking into a thieves den or an enemy city. I think that portals take that away.
The problem is that the changes that have been proposed make the game more entertaining for a small group of players by taking away the entertainment and choice of a larger group of players.

You don't have to ALWAYS have an epic abjurer on hand (and lens cost 3500 usually, 2500 min, not 2250) to counter lens. As noted there are plenty of ways to prevent a lens which are not hostile (a Net casts web for example), and anyone can use it - also thematically fitting for hunting people! It is cheaper for you to counter lens than it is to buy a lens (outside of the exploit of 'preparing' a lens and using it while in combat/-ward teleport is up).

I don't know the specifics of your pvp that you encounter people running away on sight but you're not 'hostile' to them. Of course if you're a monster (drow, orog, ogre, etc) and a character can tell, and they're a non-combatant then they'll be looking for an escape. I will say though that if you run into one of my characters, as much as I dislike combat pvp, I'll still stick around long enough to see what you want - I don't do slave RP though.
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by flower » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:48 pm

To those who complain that instant lens is not to heh. What role play is if your character knows that guy is too strong for me if I stay I die and would decide to hang over for a chat?

Surface character in UD knows pretty well that encounter with locals can most likely end In death so why linger? For over ages Myon supplied elves with lenses in case of drow raids. What sane elf would NOT lenses off spotting drow war party?

Also majority people has little interest in PvP. Why should they be forced to take part In it.

My character had daily threaths from drow from below on doors. Any reason for her to stand and chat with drow squad outnumbering her? If chaotic neutral, perhaps lol.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Richørd » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:58 pm

As someone who's been working in a guard position on two characters in a row I'd just suggest to leave the lenses as they are.

Why? Simple.

Someone thinks "[bad words]" in a bad situation and don't feel like PvPing with a disadvantage or when they're on a tight RL schedule and intend on logging off shortly after ... well, it's fine for them to lens out, really.

The amount of times I had someone lensing out on me as they were being questioned are roughly equal to the amount of times someone had a lens on them but decided to RP the situation out and see where it goes.
Last edited by Miaou on Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please do not use cuss words if you can help it. Even though you changed out a letter or two, it's still very clear what words you were using.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Annakist » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:12 am

*side steps a "miss me with that [bad word]"*

Topic at hand

1) Forgotten realms does in fact have lenses available to the average joes and such and i feel the incorporation by arelith is spot on.

2) Though I do feel the average cost for something relied on as such a valuable asset should be looked into. Even if at 5-10k. Its the most utilized tool in the game when it comes to moving around or like people have mentioned RL gotta goes, even dungeon stuck. Increasing the price would have lower levels without the money to spend to interact with higher levels to acquire them. Least imo.

3) I read in replies that casting web, slow or another form of spell prevents people from using lenses. Well DUH its a hostile action and puts you mechanically into combat. Small example of how this is boarder-line against the rules.... Guy one walks up to guy two aggressively. And to ensure guy two doesnt run away via lens guy one takes a hostile action and casts on or around him... THEN forces Rp..... Yeah... "Bad form Jack". Mind as well just invis/one-line/kill/bash; cause thats how classy that would be.

4) A cooldown would be kind of pointless as I dont know who uses them back to back to back unless they are man-hunting on a huge raid event. Seems silly to me.

5) My stand point I feel a 1-3 sec cast time would be more realistic WITH a sanctuary like effect allowing them to make the lens. This would allow the "hostiled" parties to be furious at literally watching their prey leave with a smile AND enhance the Rp aspect. Just a personal opinion.

A WAY TO SOLVE ALL THIS CRAP- Suggestively apply into the mechanics if possible a way to toggle on or off Pvp actions against other Pc's. This would come with a 24 re-toggle option and also would appear in the Bios (Since people should in fact be reading those (but thats none of my business)) This would allow those softcore players to enjoy the game and Rp while those nut Snuggybear "power builds"" as people call em enjoy slaughtering only each other. Now I know whats gunna be said about this. Oh but they can be toggled too non-combat and run their mouths with no consequences. Well ya know what? My boss is a jerk but im not gunna smash him with a claymore.... *deadpans* (also might not be code possible to add this feature, Idk just brainstorming) :lol:
I know I know a Pvp server.
Last edited by Miaou on Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by flower » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:47 am

Imho it is creating a problem where none is.

If people lens out they have no desire for conflict (whatever reason). Why to push them and make sore feelings.

Those who want to play that clash will stay and face you, is it not better that way than force it on unwilling participiant.

If someone boasts then lenses out, why feel insulted. Having big mouth and then running is best way to ruin own reputation forever. It has longer lasting effects then killing that character in PvP.
You may laugh that guy out on any other encounter for it.

Making lenses on timer will not make characters to bear with consequences. Consequences for what anyway? For being weaker party in conflict? And if for running mounth, as I wrote above ruining own reputation is carried by character for a very long time. Longer than penalties for death ;)

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Poolbrain » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:48 am

The lensing out is just a symptom, not the real problem, people dont want hostile rp or pvp. The challenge is in what ways PvP could be handled mechanically to make it a more appealing experience for everyone. (especially the loser)

Perhaps less penalties upon death? A text that shows up with tips on how to handle the death IC? (ive had an encounter with someone who thought they needed to perma die after the pvp)

Perhaps a dialogue with preferences in the fugue that will be sent back to the killer or noted on the corpse. (i dont want prisoner rp, just bash my body).

I guess that should be made into a different topic though :P

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Miaou » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:12 am

Rooshi49 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:32 pm
I get it, lenses arn't the only thing one can do, but I think lenses as they are, are too easy of an answer. Not everyone has something that can stop someone from lensing out though. To say that you should ALWAYS have an epic abjurationalist to counter something that costs 2250 gold is just absurd to me. Every other option other than lensing out that you mentioned seems like an awesome and great way to deal with the situation. And I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but I'm not talking about removing lenses, I just think that there really isn't enough time to actually have that moment of seeing someone and actually typing out: "Hey you, if you reach for a lens I'll attack!" or even hostiling someone. Sometimes I don't even want to auto-hostile someone because it might not even turn out to be a hostile encounter. You also have to RP with someone first before you go and attack / spellcast at them.

First off, just because you hostile someone does not mean you are then required to engage in PvP. It's a "warning" of sorts to the other player that at that moment, it is possible that fighting can erupt. A courtesy thing. I've had many instances where I've hostiled people simply for them to leave, for me to leave, or we talk for extended periods of time. Or we unhostile each other.

And to the meat of what you said to my response. I did not even mention abjuration and -ward in my post. I gave multiple examples of other ways to stop them from using a lens. There's tons of ways to stop people, even more than what I listed. Is it a hostile action? Yes, as you are stopping them from doing something. Even if they simply bolted, you attempting to stop them would be hostile as well.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by mourisson1 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:31 am

I feel like the worst problem is the combination of Lenses + Engage rule. In most cases, this basically gives the defender (i will go for those terms, DEFENDER: The one who IS the target, and have lenses most likely. ATTACKER: The one who wants to do something with the target) a lot of options to lens out. As was told here, preemptive web (whatever else) is nice, but it is quite a thin ice to go, because of engage rule. One could argue that web from invisibility catches him, giving the attacking party huge oportunity, but no RP was done before. Thus the defender has A LOT of time to preactivate lenses (as someone wrote, and which i would strongly vote for to disallow) making all your offense/ward/whatever non-working, as it can then be used even in combat.
What troubles me about this is how plushy it makes the server. Surfacers go to underdark with absolutely no problem, and if they are caught, they lenses away. Same goes for the underdarkers. What stops someone from running near to cordor, preactivating lenses, waving to paladins, doing whatever he wants and then lens away? According to Engagement rule i kind of liked the rule on one other server (i dont really remember its name), which had an exception if you were in the "opposite" territory. Thus the underdarkers could freely engage the surfacer in UD, and vice versa. Characters who want to be safe then roam the surface, and they know they can in most cases just lens out of combat, whereas if they go to dangerous terriory, they know they can be wrecked in a few seconds as hell. But the way it is, i often met surfacer in Outpost, started a RP with something like *he watches the guy with hands prepared to cast spell if necesasary* hey you, stop right there and don't move. And then POOOOF surfacer was safely in Cordor with 0 threat. I know there are RP solutions to that, discredit the guy maybe by letting ppl know he frequents UD, but hell, most ppl wont care, because they trust their IC friends more then a drow telling them their friend is bad and visits UD frequently.



This. I'm not sure how ICly you activate lenses, but i believe characters would notice he grabs the lenses, mages could feel the energy preparing for transportation, whatever. I dont think its a good behaving to say "well because of mechanical disadvantages of NWN, you saw a special item wrote in log, so you were a bad bad guy and totaly metagamed me". I would even go for something like automatic message on lenses usage *Reaches out for portal lenses and starts preparing it* or something like that. But i wouldnt say its such a stealthy item no one can ICly tell you use them.

Price. I wouldnt really change this, most likely increase in price would just mean some ppl will farm more to get them, nothing else.

Generally about lenses, how they look to me:

+ Saves time if something RL comes up, and you can just port to safety from dungeon.
+ Gives an opportunity to non-pvp-liking players to disengage pvp quite safely.

- Gives an opportunity to player to safely roam the dangerous zone, without fear, because they can safely lens out.
- Doesnt give any notice that player is using them.
- Doesnt have some interruptable cast-time.
- Can be pre-used to portal out even in warded zone (i would go as far as consider this a bug, as RP-wise you SHOULDNT be able to do so.)



P.S.:



Please, please, please, dont do this, it makes anyone trying to outplay the lenses feel really sore, and it drives Epic Abjurers to madness, because the investment of 2 normal + 1 epic feats were not enough. The worst what can happen is you die, and what...death penalties are so low you haave basically no need to be afraid of death. And in most encounters i was in, both sides felt way better and had a way better game and RP opportunities if they RPed and didnt lens-out, even if they (and mind you, that often was me, even as agressor) died.

So, here comes my little text with opinion to lenses, and a small disclaimer that whatever i wrote is just MY feeling, made from MY experiences and people I met and I played with. Thus the reality or your personal feelings/experiences can be way different.
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Revelations » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:42 am

The Rambling Midget wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:39 am
The thing about putting someone into a jail cell is that you have to have their permission to do it. You can't drag them there; that mechanic was removed almost a decade ago. If you kill them, you can't raise them in a cell without permission, because it's a violation of the 24 hour rule. If you coerce them, it's still within their power to start a fight, die, and respawn. So to say that locked cells aren't taken seriously is a fallacious argument, because you can't even put someone into one unless they're already taking it seriously.

As for someone using a lens to get out of PvP, if they run, you won. Killing them accomplishes absolutely nothing, because they're free to respawn and get right back to what they were doing before. No matter what, all you as a player can ever accomplish through force is temporary displacement. You cannot decide when a character dies for good.

The idea that portal lenses can circumvent a narrative suggests that a single player has the power to dictate the stories of others around them. No player can do that. You only have that power over yourself. No group narrative can develop as the result of a single player's choices. It has to be cooperative, or it's meaningless.

The argument against portal lenses is based around its negative effect on character interactions, but it falsely assumes that one player should have the power to dictate the RP choices of another. Whether or not portal lenses change, you will never be able to elicit the cooperation of another player without their consent. If lenses disappeared, cornering and killing people you don't like would become easier. Nothing more.
I think this post is 100% on point. I considered highlighting parts of it, but all of it is accurate.

Guys, you can't win anything. Ever. Even with lenses, -teleport and all other sort of escape scanarios removed, the other player decides how much meaning hostile encounters have. It would only make griefing easier.

If the narrative you've created consistently makes the other side want to opt out immediatly, reconsider the narrative you've created.
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flower
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by flower » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:06 am

If


* lenses were more expansive, it will not change a thing. People will keep them for getting out of pvp.

*lenses had casting time, it will not make people to stick around for pvp either, They will just use them immedietly onto spotting warded people. Before you reach them, rp, hostile, and attack, They will be gone. With timer, They will not risk that using it one second later would make them dead.

So neither of proposed solution would help you.

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Durvayas
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Durvayas » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:21 am

Miaou wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:12 am
First off, just because you hostile someone does not mean you are then required to engage in PvP. It's a "warning" of sorts to the other player that at that moment, it is possible that fighting can erupt. A courtesy thing. I've had many instances where I've hostiled people simply for them to leave, for me to leave, or we talk for extended periods of time. Or we unhostile each other.
90% of the time I've been hostiled, the RP lasts about 40 seconds longer after that point, just enough time for a line of RP to be exchanged, and then I get jumped. If people did not play to win so much on this server, and the RP before PvP rule were not treated more as a checkbox (one line suffices, so often thats all you get) than anything else, its really no surprise that people lense.

More importantly, if you're someone who everyone lenses away from... perhaps consider why? There are players where I know them by reputation, and I'll stick around and see what happens.
There are also players that are well known for one line PvP, where I'll preload a lense just in case, because I don't expect a good or enjoyable RP encounter from them. Its predictable, I know their build will kill mine, I also know that they'll killbash my character. All I can expect from these people is irritation, because they're not known for making PvP a fun experience for anyone, so why would I entertain playing along? I'm already sure I'm only going to get one line of RP off in the whole interaction, so it might as well be a line of dialogue along with an emote that I cracked a lense.

Long story short, if you don't make conflict fun for people, don't be surprised if people bounce when you try to initiate it.

Addendum: Pro-tip, if you walk up to someone while fully warded, weapon drawn, and your PC is being aggressive, the odds of the other player deciding to have their character lense increase dramatically. If this is a frustrating occurance, reconsider your approach.
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Cagus » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:43 am

Well,
I agree that lenses gives players god-like ability in dangerous areas against other players. As example can see how surfaces is roaming UD without any real danger and vice versa. When you can come and go like to your nearest market, what challenge and adrenaline does it give to a player? When you go somewhere you are not suppose to be, you should expect consequences.
flower wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:47 am
If people lens out they have no desire for conflict (whatever reason). Why to push them and make sore feelings.
If one does not want conflict, one can stay inside the protection of the city walls.
And sore feelings are problem of the inner state of a person, not of mechanics of the game.

Solution:
Give porting with lenses charging time, something like 2-3 rounds (12-18 seconds), with noticing players in vicinity. Taking damage, getting engaged in fight or other player's '-!' (setting hostile in the area), will disrupt.
This gives you option to use lenses when you are not in immediate danger, but doesn't make you untouchable god.
Transmuters wouldn't be affected by this.
Also check against -ward teleport should be at moment of teleporting, not using item. If not, it really feels like bug. (RP wise you ward against teleporting, not cracking a piece of glass.)

Also you can have second lenses added to game, which would cost much more (70k+), which work like the current ones, which allows you get from any situation, but with hard cost on gp.

As stated before, penalties for dead are almost non-existent, so the only issue is the EGO. Well, that problem is personal. Every snowflake's gonna melt one day.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by flower » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:49 am

Cagus wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:43 am
....
Sorry, but that is a big nonsence. It is not god-like ability versus players. It allows people to opt out. This server is not about PVP, if you have not noticed. This server is about RP, adventuring. UD is not owned by UD characters. And surface character is not expected by rules to wait for UDers to kill them in UD either.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by mourisson1 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:57 am

flower wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:49 am

Sorry, but that is a big nonsence. It is not god-like ability versus players. It allows people to opt out. This server is not about PVP, if you have not noticed. This server is about RP, adventuring. UD is not owned by UD characters. And surface character is not expected by rules to wait for UDers to kill them in UD either.
I would argue that Rp is also about consequences. And running into underdark and getting wrecked up by underdarkers is the kind of consequences you get for this (I dont say getting KILLED IN PVP, but rather being caught, being marked, whatever). But hey, you can just avoid consequences by lensing out. I get it in some bandit-like scenarios, thats totaly cool. But if you run to city that is ran by drows and monsters which ARE actually enemies of surfacers, and you can freely get out even if caught? It is quite a big nonsence to expect that you can do everything, run everywhere and avoid every consequences. So from now its totaly cool to take a band of drows, make a small slave-killing party in front of cordor every day, and in sight of guards just lens out?

I'm sorry but imo RP without consequences is quite a nonsense. You say adventuring, but you talk about walking in a safe garden with no problems/danger. Thats not adventuring at all. You go to bad places, you get punished, thats how it should work. thats why you dont instakill all mobs. Thats why bosses and such are at least a bit difficult.
flower wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:49 am
And surface character is not expected by rules to wait for UDers to kill them in UD either.
Also thats RIGHT. I totaly AGREE with it. But also surface character should face the IC consequences (no death, no, there are worse things) and not lens out IMMEDIATELY when he sees underdarkers. Thats as fair manners, as firing a banshee out of GS.
Last edited by mourisson1 on Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by flower » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:43 am

But what you describe has nothing to do with lenses. It has to do with rule breaking and is thing to be answered to by DM team. In both cases, surface parties in Andunor and drow ones in Cordor.

And to lense can also the more stronger party. Instead of lensing They could just stay and fight and win, and still, it would be subject to DM (same like drow squad coming to Cordor, killing people around and ignoring NPCs).

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