Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

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Rooshi49
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Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Rooshi49 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:01 am

Dagonlives posted something in suggestions speaking about portal lenses, and I kind of wanted to bring it to a forum where it can be discussed. Because I think its a really good point. So verbatim from him:

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These items are fair too easy to acquire, and make most conflict oriented roleplay pointless. I can't count the number of times someone has escaped or avoided a situation due to this item. They make distances, prison cells, and walls, which are all important narrative tools entirely pointless.

At least before this, you had to beg a wizard, or go forbid, walk.

No one takes a prison cell seriously. No one takes a locked wizard's tower seriously. Even an armed monster mob is not taken very seriously. They know they can just spend 2250 gold to escape that scenario without consequence. The amount of times I've seen a lens enhance roleplay versus detract from it are minimal.

When the gameplay mechanics inhibit or prevent cool roleplay rather then enhance it, they really need to be looked at, similar to my post about Timestop.

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Okay so this is my opinion. I've discussed this with some friends and we came to a couple conclusions taking non-combat RP, fairness, QoL, and combat RP all into account.

I think that they should have possibly a:

1) Wind up time to use, like a 3-5 second cast time
2) More expensive price
3) Cooldown timer

Pro:

I think it would make combat RP more interesting and would give counter play to using lenses to get out of combat RP
It would (as the OP said) make it so dungeons are not such a trivial thing.

Cons:

It would make it harder for lower levels to get out of bugs
It would make it harder for thieves to get out of houses after they break in
QoL would go down

Disclaimer: I'm not here to talk about the ramifications of PVP only. I'm here to speak about how a singular item: "the portal lens" can impact role play so much and feels like it cheapens everything that anyone does.
Last edited by Rooshi49 on Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Atlantahammy » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:01 am

My biggest problem with it, is that people would Abuse it..... And I hate to say it but the idea seems to stem from the want to rip away a players choice to engage in PVP, where someone can get the self-gratification of beating someone else up easily, and ruin their day, because they can't POSSIBLY stand up against their power build, or some level 30 chasing lowbie out of an area.

Every time it comes up, it's from someone thats been unhappy they didn't get to pvp someone that did not want to engage in pvp.

I know, i've been on the receiving end of not wanting to engage in pvp, but people on the other end give no other choices, and kill-bash me, and move on... It's not fun, it's not cool, and it's sure as hell not fulfilling, and just ruins my day and I hear nothing but "Haha you got killed" from the other side.

It just.... Stinks of someone trying to circumvent the be nice and PVP rules.

Edit: quick note, Lenses can't actually be used while in actual combat.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by The Rambling Midget » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:39 am

The thing about putting someone into a jail cell is that you have to have their permission to do it. You can't drag them there; that mechanic was removed almost a decade ago. If you kill them, you can't raise them in a cell without permission, because it's a violation of the 24 hour rule. If you coerce them, it's still within their power to start a fight, die, and respawn. So to say that locked cells aren't taken seriously is a fallacious argument, because you can't even put someone into one unless they're already taking it seriously.

As for someone using a lens to get out of PvP, if they run, you won. Killing them accomplishes absolutely nothing, because they're free to respawn and get right back to what they were doing before. No matter what, all you as a player can ever accomplish through force is temporary displacement. You cannot decide when a character dies for good.

The idea that portal lenses can circumvent a narrative suggests that a single player has the power to dictate the stories of others around them. No player can do that. You only have that power over yourself. No group narrative can develop as the result of a single player's choices. It has to be cooperative, or it's meaningless.

The argument against portal lenses is based around its negative effect on character interactions, but it falsely assumes that one player should have the power to dictate the RP choices of another. Whether or not portal lenses change, you will never be able to elicit the cooperation of another player without their consent. If lenses disappeared, cornering and killing people you don't like would become easier. Nothing more.
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by WanderingPoet » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:52 am

There are lots of ways to prevent people from lensing - be it with abjuration or even preemptive hostiling (not to be mistaken with preemptive stabbing) and shooting them with a bow if they try to flee ("I will shoot you if you reach for a lens").

While its frustrating when your victim escapes (especially with minimal RP), it's equally frustrating to have someone walk up to you and murderhobo you (especially with minimal RP). The difference is that the attacker loses nothing if the victim escapes, while the victim if they die has death penalties for RL hours, limiting what they can do.

The question is: How can we make battle oriented roleplay fun for both the attacker and victim. How can we build the trust that when enemies show up that they are there to create a story (and not just slavery), not just murder your face?

Personally I prefer that people take death seriously and escape engagements they can't win, rather than taking a careless approach. If anything it makes it when you do manage to catch someone even more rewarding - if you always succeed then what's the point?
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Rooshi49 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:13 am

Atlantahammy wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:01 am
My biggest problem with it, is that people would Abuse it..... And I hate to say it but the idea seems to stem from the want to rip away a players choice to engage in PVP, where someone can get the self-gratification of beating someone else up easily, and ruin their day, because they can't POSSIBLY stand up against their power build, or some level 30 chasing lowbie out of an area.

Every time it comes up, it's from someone thats been unhappy they didn't get to pvp someone that did not want to engage in pvp.

I know, i've been on the receiving end of not wanting to engage in pvp, but people on the other end give no other choices, and kill-bash me, and move on... It's not fun, it's not cool, and it's sure as hell not fulfilling, and just ruins my day and I hear nothing but "Haha you got killed" from the other side.

It just.... Stinks of someone trying to circumvent the be nice and PVP rules.

Edit: quick note, Lenses can't actually be used while in actual combat.
Woh, woh woh. Did you read my post? I didn't specifically say it was all about PVP. I just think that portal lenses are too easy get get and use for what they do, and while they may give someone an easy out in literally every situation imaginable (which can be good or bad). I just think that the ability to go back on your word and invalidate nearly every narrative scenario is a bit too much for 2250 gold.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Rooshi49 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:17 am

WanderingPoet wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:52 am

The question is: How can we make battle oriented roleplay fun for both the attacker and victim. How can we build the trust that when enemies show up that they are there to create a story (and not just slavery), not just murder your face?
As for this . . Noone ever wants to RP when there may be combat involved. Almost everyone just runs. I'm personally not murderhobo'ing people as you call it, but I would at least be able to speak with someone before they instantly just go poof.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by The Rambling Midget » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:19 am

Rooshi49 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:13 am
Woh, woh woh. Did you read my post? I didn't specifically say it was all about PVP.
Rooshi49 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:13 am
No one takes a prison cell seriously. No one takes a locked wizard's tower seriously. Even an armed monster mob is not taken very seriously. They know they can just spend 2250 gold to escape that scenario without consequence.
You didn't specifically say it, but you used a quote of someone else specifically saying it as your only justification for the change. That's pretty misleading.

If you have some other reasoning in mind, it'd help to add that to your post along with a disclaimer about the quote.
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Rooshi49 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:26 am

The Rambling Midget wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:19 am
Rooshi49 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:13 am
Woh, woh woh. Did you read my post? I didn't specifically say it was all about PVP.
Rooshi49 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:13 am
No one takes a prison cell seriously. No one takes a locked wizard's tower seriously. Even an armed monster mob is not taken very seriously. They know they can just spend 2250 gold to escape that scenario without consequence.
You didn't specifically say it, but you used a quote of someone else specifically saying it as your only justification for the change. That's pretty misleading.

If you have some other reasoning in mind, it'd help to add that to your post along with a disclaimer about the quote.
Very well, good point. I included a disclaimer.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by WanderingPoet » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:30 am

Rooshi49 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:17 am
WanderingPoet wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:52 am

The question is: How can we make battle oriented roleplay fun for both the attacker and victim. How can we build the trust that when enemies show up that they are there to create a story (and not just slavery), not just murder your face?
As for this . . Noone ever wants to RP when there may be combat involved. Almost everyone just runs. I'm personally not murderhobo'ing people as you call it, but I would at least be able to speak with someone before they instantly just go poof.
Personally I always try to stick around when there may be combat involved, even though I'm not a fan of the actual combat. The tense situations, the back and forth dialogue is fun. The main times I do run away are when I'm severely outnumbered or its a group that has already killed me once (or been known ICly to kill people) and it makes no sense to hang around. On the flipside I also try to drag out the situation when I'm the aggressor, to create more RP from it than bang-you're-dead.

I'm not the only one, many people will stick around and see where the RP leads. I was not saying -you- murderhobo people, but there have been people that do so which make people cautious. Very few people want their characters to die, or be enslaved or such as it's often just an annoyance than something that builds story.

Maybe consider using subdual so you don't actually slay people?
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Miaou » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:34 am

I'm going to quickly tackle the PvP aspect of this argument.




If you are planning to start PvP with someone and you do not take into account lenses or potions, then that is on you, not the person. There are tons of ways to escape from a situation. Invisibility. Darkness. Greater Sanctuary. Having a friend with -yoink who didn't get caught... Yoink you away. Popping haste and running. Running around a corner and stealthing. HiPS. And yes! Lenses too.

There's also tons of ways to stop this. Give your warning, and if you see them activate something, use an object or spell that casts a hostile effect on the ground. Web is useful for this as it isn't entirely "hostile" (It still counts as a hostile action). There are mundane items that let you cast Web. You can also cast things like entangle or grease. Not a spellcaster? Shoot them with an arrow. A bullet. Throw an axe at them! You a melee class? Smack them with your sword. KD them. Even if it misses, they are now in combat and they can't lens.

Another thing. Say the person lensed. Or just escaped. You don't have to end the story there. Hire some people to hunt them down! Mock them for being a coward who fled. Gain your honour/notoriety by showing you forced them to flee. Set out wanted posters if you are apart of a settlement's militia. Or just if you're some group. Work with other groups to get this person kicked out of places for doing evil (Or good!) things. The story does not have to stop because they escaped.




These are three concepts you can keep in mind. People deserve a way out, if they are able to. You're also able to try to stop it. At the end of the day, whatever the outcome, make a story out of it. We aren't playing to win. We're here to tell stories. And generally, the best stories come out of the "losers" anyways.



For the other arguments? Perhaps they can be made more expensive like Raise Dead scrolls were. Still have them available, but not as easy to get. Maybe make the crafting for them actually worthwhile. A proper PC market can pop up. As for cooldown timer, I'm not sure why you would be using so many in such a short amount of time, but perhaps that too.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Dirac » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:45 am

I’m definitely pro portal lens but I find it very irritating when folks cleverly use game mechanics to avoid IG consequences.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Durvayas » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:53 am

Atlantahammy wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:01 am
My biggest problem with it, is that people would Abuse it..... And I hate to say it but the idea seems to stem from the want to rip away a players choice to engage in PVP, where someone can get the self-gratification of beating someone else up easily, and ruin their day, because they can't POSSIBLY stand up against their power build, or some level 30 chasing lowbie out of an area.

Every time it comes up, it's from someone thats been unhappy they didn't get to pvp someone that did not want to engage in pvp.

I know, i've been on the receiving end of not wanting to engage in pvp, but people on the other end give no other choices, and kill-bash me, and move on... It's not fun, it's not cool, and it's sure as hell not fulfilling, and just ruins my day and I hear nothing but "Haha you got killed" from the other side.

It just.... Stinks of someone trying to circumvent the be nice and PVP rules.
In my experience, the people who complain about lenses the most are the people who drink a haste potion mid-conversation, or cast it on themselves mid conversation well before they hit the hostile button. Its the 'must win' PvP crowd that tends to have the biggest issue with lenses on the whole.

If anything, escaping from jail should be harder. Quarters should be teleport proof as well. Circumstancial ease of escape should be tightened slightly. A wind up time would be good for RP, and take away from the triviality of lense use in dungeons, which is a big complaint of the OP.

HOWEVER to balance this, and allow for more easy escape from ganking combat RP (rather than open the change to abuse), allow attunement potions to teleport people regardless of if they're in combat or not. Currently they do not work if you drink them while embattled, and making it so that they do work in combat would make them signifigantly more valuable as an RP tool.
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Cybernet21 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:04 am

People are forgetting about PvE here,and quality of life for players.

Lenses are also used when something you weren't planing for example happens IRL and you gotta log out but you are in the middle of a dungeon you can't survive without the current group there,so your characters says he/she's gotta rest and pops the lense so you can log out safely.That is the OOC quality of life thing there's also the IC thing

For example you character gets called IC for something very urgent but they are on the same dungeon situation as above,if they had the funds and were smart to bring a lense they can just pop it and get out of the dungeon.

Severely restricting lenses or bringing their prices up would be a real bummer for situations like that (i've been in them before),and those are only two examples,there can be inumerous examples both IC and OOC where having it restricted would make things suck and you play a game to enjoy it after all.

In the end the examples used on the original suggestion all come to "RP Etiquette" in the end,from both sides as Midget said it's a team effort everyone involved has to be willing to RP something out,it's not just one player/character deciding it all
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:21 am

I have to strongly disagree with the suggestion. Having an easy escape from PvP is not a bad thing. Some of us enjoy conflict RP but are very much put off by PvP. And while yes, PvP will be a part of the conflict once in a while, it shouldn't be forced on anyone in such a manner that their safe escape is no longer viable for them.

Portal Lenses also work wonders to save you from dungeons and monsters for that time when you're overrun or your strength has been drained a ton and you're carrying a laboratory's worth of supplies on you.

Personally, I think portal lenses are fine as they are. I wouldn't mind if they were harder to come by, for example if they were removed entirely from NPC shops - either that or made more expensive. But to make them nearly useless for what they're amazing for? I don't agree with it.

Furthermore, it would diminish the need to have an epic Abjurer by your side. Only an epic Abjurer can prevent Portal Lenses to work and like it's already been stated here, if you have a problem with someone escaping easily by Portal Lens, solve the situation by countering it. In this case the Epic Abjuration mage will do the trick.

To be honest, the whole suggestion post felt like a voice of frustration that OP didn't get to one-shot another player character because of a portal lens. I understand wanting consequences to be real in-game. And in this kind of situation, it's fully possible to nullify the usefulness of the Portal Lens with the right preparation.

But please don't punish all portal lens carriers just for the sake of PvP.


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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by flower » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:22 am

One thing is people giving consent and held in prison, then attacking / lensing off. Both parties should agree for how long and if there is an oiption to escape after.


And one thing are lenses to flee. There is nothing wrong with it. Neither with cost of lenses. Now imagine you force someone into interaction with your character while player would rather lense of. What quality interaction can come up from forced thing?

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Nitro » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:06 am

These items are fair too easy to acquire, and make most conflict oriented roleplay pointless. I can't count the number of times someone has escaped or avoided a situation due to this item. They make distances, prison cells, and walls, which are all important narrative tools entirely pointless.

At least before this, you had to beg a wizard, or go forbid, walk.

No one takes a prison cell seriously. No one takes a locked wizard's tower seriously. Even an armed monster mob is not taken very seriously. They know they can just spend 2250 gold to escape that scenario without consequence. The amount of times I've seen a lens enhance roleplay versus detract from it are minimal.

When the gameplay mechanics inhibit or prevent cool roleplay rather then enhance it, they really need to be looked at, similar to my post about Timestop.
If someone lenses out because they don't want to RP being put in a locked cell, then why shouldn't they be allowed to? If they're the kind of person to use a lense to get out of that situation in the first place, do you think they'd agree to remain imprisoned even if lenses were unavailable? (Since it is an OOC choice if you want to participate in that kind of RP)

Also, there are methods to stop this already in game. You have beg a wizard in your very post. If you want to stop someones easy escape, go beg a wizard to put up a teleport ward or god forbid have them escape due to your negligence.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:02 pm

1: Portal lenses are a functional tool for teleportation which is canonically readily available to mid-range and higher level characters in the Forgotten Realms, for what most characters of that level range find a cheap but not insignificant price.

2: To the people citing that it derails RP; other than preventing someone from fleeing a situation they don't want to be in (IC or OOC), this does not derail anything. Many wizards find room for abjuration foci in their build; the ability to go hire them to put down a -ward teleport shows foresight that should be present if you want to trap someone else's character in this world, and increases RP opportunities by causing you to draw other people into the conflict that would not otherwise need to be involved.

3: Someone escaping from PvP (or jail) is a poor reason to change any mechanics unless bugs or exploits were involved somehow; it is tantamount to admitting that the ability to kill another player's character (or leave them in a cell to rot against their will) is the driving motivation behind your requested change. It is fine for your character to want these things to happen to another character; as a player, you should never want anything that will make another player enjoy themselves less.

4: People wind up in jail and dead all the time. The implication that lenses somehow prohibit these things from happening seems hyper-focused on individual hostile events where things didn't go the way they were planned- this is not bad RP, this is an opportunity. You can get them next time, Gadget.... NEXT TIME!
Durvayas wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:53 am
allow attunement potions to teleport people regardless of if they're in combat or not. Currently they do not work if you drink them while embattled, and making it so that they do work in combat would make them signifigantly more valuable as an RP tool.
I believe this is wrong- I've checked with some people on discord; attunement potions should work mid-combat, although I'm informed there is a one-round delay between chugging and teleporting.
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Haruspex » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:50 pm

Honestly Dagon if every suggestion from you is "x thing is ruining my PvP/Evil experience, remove it/make it prohibitive", maybe you need to stop and consider what you're doing. Portal lenses are very old, pre-dating -ward or -teleport if I remember right, and we've had plenty of evils/villains/general conflict RP that have went on despite them. Why, then, is this suddenly a dire problem when portal lenses provide so much to players outside of any conflict or PvP scenario?

I have a child under three and often times despite my best planning I have to leave suddenly when I'm in a dangerous situation/place. Sometimes I have to get the door or a phone call. Sometimes I just have to leave because life happens. Making portal lenses inaccessible for lower levels, people who aren't casters with GSF Transmutation, or even just people who don't farm up money that often would be a massive QoL decrease for a lot of players.

I understand where you are coming from because the RPless portal lens exit has happened to me many times (on the good AND the evil side) but you just have to take it in stride and realize that the people who are doing it probably a.) have their reasons for doing so or b.) probably wouldn't have been a good sport about capture roleplay anyway. A is bound to happen when you're roving around looking to catch people out, since you might also catch them on their way back to a town or other safe place because they have to leave, and B is just unavoidable since you can't change people.

You're not the only person on the server.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:40 pm

The Rambling Midget wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:39 am
The thing about putting someone into a jail cell is that you have to have their permission to do it. You can't drag them there; that mechanic was removed almost a decade ago. If you kill them, you can't raise them in a cell without permission, because it's a violation of the 24 hour rule. If you coerce them, it's still within their power to start a fight, die, and respawn. So to say that locked cells aren't taken seriously is a fallacious argument, because you can't even put someone into one unless they're already taking it seriously.

As for someone using a lens to get out of PvP, if they run, you won. Killing them accomplishes absolutely nothing, because they're free to respawn and get right back to what they were doing before. No matter what, all you as a player can ever accomplish through force is temporary displacement. You cannot decide when a character dies for good.

The idea that portal lenses can circumvent a narrative suggests that a single player has the power to dictate the stories of others around them. No player can do that. You only have that power over yourself. No group narrative can develop as the result of a single player's choices. It has to be cooperative, or it's meaningless.

The argument against portal lenses is based around its negative effect on character interactions, but it falsely assumes that one player should have the power to dictate the RP choices of another. Whether or not portal lenses change, you will never be able to elicit the cooperation of another player without their consent. If lenses disappeared, cornering and killing people you don't like would become easier. Nothing more.
This is just a perfect response, and says most of what I'd say.

I suppose it doesn't cover the other aspects of using lesnes (PvE ect) but again I don't think the drawbacks there outweigh the advantages.

As other players have said, Lenses are useful when you have to leave abruptly, or when you don't have much time in general, (real life and all that) or when you're stuck somewhere.

If someone lenses out because they don't want to RP being put in a locked cell, then why shouldn't they be allowed to? If they're the kind of person to use a lense to get out of that situation in the first place, do you think they'd agree to remain imprisoned even if lenses were unavailable? (Since it is an OOC choice if you want to participate in that kind of RP)
Whilst this is brought up - RULE REMINDER!

Characters should not be imprisoned without roleplay for more than 24 IG hours.

Obviously if a player is happy to be stuck in a jail cell for longer - that's their own choice and perfectly fine! But if a player is stuck in a jail cell/desert island/imprisoned in general without rp for a signficiant amount of time then, lense or no lense, ward or no ward, they're always welcome to ask a DM to help them escape.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by TimeAdept » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:31 pm

Dirac wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:45 am
I’m definitely pro portal lens but I find it very irritating when folks cleverly use game mechanics to avoid IG consequences.
Why are you upset when people act cleverly to make the best of a situation?

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by MineTurtle » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:52 pm

I think a healthy compromise is to restrict portal lenses working in heavily populated areas, so inside all towns, and inside all buildings in said towns, including cells.

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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:03 pm

Incoming controversial opinion.

I made an abjurist because I was sick of people instantly lensing out of any conflict I tried to put on people. I find folks when denied the lense are pretty much 100% reasonable and only in one case did I receive a player pretty much /shutting down./ I think lenses are a crutch and it takes away the joy of just casting haste and running away like a true champion.

It creates situations where one person walks out in front of like 20 enemies, talks a bunch of trash and just lenses out and the patient players who did not just instantly kill this fool are rewarded by him talking a bunch of trash towards them and instantly escaping.

It pretty much ruins any regular bandit RP because it is really so much fun, you wait around on a road for an hour and sometimes you don't even see anyone. When you finally see someone and try to conflict them for just whatever petty change the person had on them at that time, not even seeking a scenario where you hostile each other and fight and the person just lenses 30 seconds in. That's not any fun, at all.

Just so we are clear before some folks try to jump down my throat, when I do conflict I try to make it quality and I certainly don't pvp people for no reason and it's actually something I try to avoid. I certainly also don't subject them to /torture rp/ or anything they are not comfortable with OOCly. But when you want to be menacing and your trying to create a dialog and the person lenses 1/4th of the way through your conversation and 65% of players will just lense out of any conflict you try to bring them.
It becomes literally exhausting beyond the point of folks saying "Lol just bring an abjurist with you wherever you go."

Not everyone who creates conflict is looking to instantly flag hostile and wipe you out. But it certainly helps encourage the mentality of flagging hostile and killing the person before they can lense, which I feel is one of the lower forms of RP on Arelith.

Dirac
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Dirac » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:18 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:31 pm
Dirac wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:45 am
I’m definitely pro portal lens but I find it very irritating when folks cleverly use game mechanics to avoid IG consequences.
Why are you upset when people act cleverly to make the best of a situation?
Dude, I'm chill bruh. Yeah, just was trying to play devils advocate with very little success.

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-XXX-
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by -XXX- » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:21 pm

Try to look at this as a form of feedback and ask yourself the question "what can I do differently so that this doesn't happen every time?"

IMHO if all you ever do is aim for a perfectly executed PvP victory, you are sort of asking for people to bail on you. Arelith experience is not supposed to be a competition, but rather a cooperative creative process.

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Rooshi49
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Re: Heavly restricting portal lenses: discussion

Post by Rooshi49 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:32 pm

I think that prison RP should work more along the lines of Slave RP, once you commit to it its hard to get out of the situation. Not everyone has a pocket abjurationalist. Do I agree that finding one and using one is the best answer? Sure. But the fact that one can just say: "Sure I'll do some prison RP" and then 5 seconds into it decides to just teleport out with a lens feels so very wrong.
Atlantahammy wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:01 am
My biggest problem with it, is that people would Abuse it..... And I hate to say it but the idea seems to stem from the want to rip away a players choice to engage in PVP, where someone can get the self-gratification of beating someone else up easily, and ruin their day, because they can't POSSIBLY stand up against their power build, or some level 30 chasing lowbie out of an area.

Every time it comes up, it's from someone thats been unhappy they didn't get to pvp someone that did not want to engage in pvp.

I know, i've been on the receiving end of not wanting to engage in pvp, but people on the other end give no other choices, and kill-bash me, and move on... It's not fun, it's not cool, and it's sure as hell not fulfilling, and just ruins my day and I hear nothing but "Haha you got killed" from the other side.

It just.... Stinks of someone trying to circumvent the be nice and PVP rules.

Edit: quick note, Lenses can't actually be used while in actual combat.
Alot of what's been posted so far has gone to extreme lengths to talk about how doing ANYTHING to portal lenses apparently will have SUPER DRASTIC consequences and how the only people who would ever want to even talk about the issue are apparently PVP lovers who are just salty because they didn't get to kill someone. . .

That really does detract from an argument when you try and make it a personal blow to anyone who would either wise voice an opinion opposite to yours.

All I'm talking about I really want is a discussion about how I think they're /NOT/ okay as they are and how they could potentially be changed to make the game more entertaining for everyone.

I get that not everyone has time to do a long dungeon and they want to TP out.
I get that not everyone wants to be forced to RP
I get that people may end up in buggy situations where a DM isn't around and a lens is the best solution.
I understand the arguments against changing them to be REALLY hard to get or hard to use.

I'm not asking for them to be impossible to get or impossible to use for newer players.
The Rambling Midget wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:39 am

The argument against portal lenses is based around its negative effect on character interactions, but it falsely assumes that one player should have the power to dictate the RP choices of another. Whether or not portal lenses change, you will never be able to elicit the cooperation of another player without their consent. If lenses disappeared, cornering and killing people you don't like would become easier. Nothing more.
I'm not talking about taking them away! Where did this idea sprout from?
Miaou wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:34 am

If you are planning to start PvP with someone and you do not take into account lenses or potions, then that is on you, not the person. There are tons of ways to escape from a situation. Invisibility. Darkness. Greater Sanctuary. Having a friend with -yoink who didn't get caught... Yoink you away. Popping haste and running. Running around a corner and stealthing. HiPS. And yes! Lenses too.

There's also tons of ways to stop this. Give your warning, and if you see them activate something, use an object or spell that casts a hostile effect on the ground. Web is useful for this as it isn't entirely "hostile" (It still counts as a hostile action). There are mundane items that let you cast Web. You can also cast things like entangle or grease. Not a spellcaster? Shoot them with an arrow. A bullet. Throw an axe at them! You a melee class? Smack them with your sword. KD them. Even if it misses, they are now in combat and they can't lens.
I get it, lenses arn't the only thing one can do, but I think lenses as they are, are too easy of an answer. Not everyone has something that can stop someone from lensing out though. To say that you should ALWAYS have an epic abjurationalist to counter something that costs 2250 gold is just absurd to me. Every other option other than lensing out that you mentioned seems like an awesome and great way to deal with the situation. And I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but I'm not talking about removing lenses, I just think that there really isn't enough time to actually have that moment of seeing someone and actually typing out: "Hey you, if you reach for a lens I'll attack!" or even hostiling someone. Sometimes I don't even want to auto-hostile someone because it might not even turn out to be a hostile encounter. You also have to RP with someone first before you go and attack / spellcast at them.

All in all, from the standpoint of lenses in pvp, I think it cheapens the experience. I don't want to force anyone into doing anything that they don't want to, but I think there should be some gravitas to walking into a thieves den or an enemy city. I think that portals take that away.

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