High level difference play.

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Sockss
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Sockss » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:32 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:11 pm
Sockss wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:45 pm
The server has always been segregated in 'level zones' and it's a faux pas to be hanging with over-levelled characters in low level areas.
I wouldn't characterize passing through a lower-level area with an IC goal in mind as "hanging." Can you honestly tell me that you've never gone into the Bramble Woods for hardwood or silk with a character far beyond the level range of those areas?
No, but that is not synonymous with interfering with lowbie writs.
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-XXX-
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by -XXX- » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:25 am

I strongly disagree. If the process of of leveling was meant to be something sacred and to be tiptoed around, then the server developers would probably have taken a series of design decisions not that uncommon for many other MMOs - instanced single player campaign content designed to be walked through on your own or in a party of your choosing in order to familiarize yourself with the server during the process, while emerging with a max lvl character able to compete in PvP after completion.

That clearly does not appear to be (or even remotely resembles the vision behind) the design of Arelith. If what you're looking for is experiencing a module with an exclusive party of "level appropriate" characters leveling together and perceive any further outside interference as an undesirable detriment, then... well... setting up a private server is always a consideration.

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flower
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by flower » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:39 am

Sockss wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:45 pm


The server has always been segregated in 'level zones' and it's a faux pas to be hanging with over-levelled characters in low level areas.
Anyone can go anywhere. If the guy likes to hang in Bramble forest despite being level 30, and has legitimate IC reason, then he has right to do so.

Now towards the level differences….
I would like to note that Arelith as most benevolent (or one of the most benevolent) system for xp gain, various penalties are off or decreased, and yu can accompany level 10-15 lelves above yourself and still get like 25 xps per kill.

It is possible for example with titans, mindflayers. So if you want to grind low levels, take them into top end dungeons. It will work.

How they survive, is fully on you.

You cannot expect epic level speeding low levels trough low-mid end content, that is just bullshit and has no justification. All should come at certain ammount of effort, if not, why not hand out levels on creation.

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Sockss
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Sockss » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:21 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:25 am
I strongly disagree. If the process of of leveling was meant to be something sacred and to be tiptoed around, then the server developers would probably have taken a series of design decisions not that uncommon for many other MMOs - instanced single player campaign content designed to be walked through on your own or in a party of your choosing in order to familiarize yourself with the server during the process, while emerging with a max lvl character able to compete in PvP after completion.

That clearly does not appear to be (or even remotely resembles the vision behind) the design of Arelith. If what you're looking for is experiencing a module with an exclusive party of "level appropriate" characters leveling together and perceive any further outside interference as an undesirable detriment, then... well... setting up a private server is always a consideration.
flower wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:39 am
Anyone can go anywhere. If the guy likes to hang in Bramble forest despite being level 30, and has legitimate IC reason, then he has right to do so.
Open world facilitates roleplay. Sure my godlike level 30 adventurer might decide that killing bramble goblins is the best use of his time and resources (provided his int and wisdom were low enough) and can absolutely justify being there and taking lowbie xp IC'ly. Is it polite and does it contribute to a nice experience for other people? No. (Hence faux Pas)

There's lots of polite things that people will do, despite having IC reason not to do them (like not killing a lowbie imp).

Part of being a good player, imo, is being considerate of other players, along with respecting rules, not exploiting with boss/resource logging, and trying to ensure that everyone has fun.

Not wanting a high level to cut my XP gain down isn't calling for a single player experience.

Leveling is something core to dnd, NWN and arelith. Otherwise we'd stick everyone at 30 on login, kit everyone with end game gear and then everyone can do everything. That way if you want to kill goblins you're not stepping on anyone's toes.

EDIT: Note I'm not saying a level 30 adventurer should never be in a low level area. I'm saying that they should prioritise letting low level characters use these areas.
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by flower » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:41 pm

Low level has same claim on the bramble woods like 30 lvl character. No single character owns any part of the game world.

Noone cuts your xps. You have free choice to go elsewhere. As he has free choice to spend his time in Bramble forest, you got the same to go to the other place. Noone is taking anything from you, so bubblin about some faux pas is quite a bit off.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Sockss » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:45 pm

flower wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:41 pm
Low level has same claim on the bramble woods like 30 lvl character. No single character owns any part of the game world.

Noone cuts your xps. You have free choice to go elsewhere. As he has free choice to spend his time in Bramble forest, you got the same to go to the other place. Noone is taking anything from you, so bubblin about some faux pas is quite a bit off.
Would you not find it lame for someone at level 30 to -follow a new PC that you rolled?
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Eters
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Eters » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:27 pm

As the game is currently, It is still possible to make "Mentoring" RP with just the right mindset, as stated before, there are many ways to aid, mentor, etc without getting in the way of writs even if there is a large level difference.

Thought since this is "Feedback" I'll give what I personally have experienced while doing mentoring on my mage.

1- The exp will be lower, no matter what you do, that is just something to accept as of now.

2- Writs can be done even if you're a demi-god, just be smart and hold back, usually mentoring is giving directives from behind, telling them flaws, "do this, don't do that, watch out for this, you forgot that etc". No matter how we want to sugar coat it , you , being a level 30, being in the front and slaughtering kobolds with 250 crits, that isn't mentoring.

3- If the mechanical value is compromised, then make the RP worth the trip, tips learned from mentoring (real tips) make the player and the character feel like they've learned from their trip, even if the exp in it was average rather than the usual.

Any other point I noticed discussed here, seems to be going into the RP realm, for example :

"If two parties grind in the same area, one with a mentor and one without, it's obvious who will remain."

How is it obvious? Little do you know the mentor would suggest another area for his party to train in, being a "mentor" he probably knows many different spots to train than others, that also depends on the alignment of both parties, of the circumstances of the meeting, etc ... not something that can be judged solemnly because a high level is with a party.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now all that said, since we are here brainstorming for a fair solution, I propose this one, a simple command "-mentor" that makes you enter a state in which you can't attack, you can't use items, you can't cast spells, and any summon you have will be automatically dismissed, you will also be set to automatically -guard yourself in this mode, in that state, you are ignored by the exp dividing system, which means your presence isn't considered when you are in this mode, you also do not receive any experience while being in this mode, nor normal, or adventure.

A person in -mentor mode also shouldn't count towards the party member count for writs, so a mentor being in a party with others, in mentor mode, should allow the party members to do their writs normally so long as the mode is active.

You are visible by all, and you can interact and speak with all, any use of items (even food and water, yes, drink up and eat well before teaching newbies.), any spell cast or any attack delivered in this mode will disable it, the use of -guard will also disable it, with a cooldown of 2-3 ticks (12-18 mins to avoid few possible exploits, because everything is exploitable Jesus Christ..)

This would make it possible to walk with lower level parties and speaking to them through the dungeon, guiding them, mentoring them etc, with the ability to aid them if they screw up, though you aiding them means they'll learn less as you did step up in the fight with either directly fighting, buffing them, or healing them.

Warding your party before activating the mode, whether or not it should be allowed or not is something I'd leave to the team if they do eventually find the idea worthwhile.

Amineh123
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Amineh123 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:49 pm

Why not just keep it simple. If you have a character in party that is too high level, gain just adventure XP, no normal XP (both from monsters and writ reward). It's so easy to gather money on server that it's irrelevant, so I'd keep it as an enough reward for completing the writ + adventure XP.
I would even allow doing all writs to all levels, but if you exceed suggested level you only gain adventure XP.

You saw something, you'll learn less, but you're going to get there eventually.

Besides, let's be honest. If someone really wants to powerlevel a friend, one will find other way. Right now we are cut off from potential fun RP just because someone is mechanically 'better'.

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Sockss
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Sockss » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:38 pm

Eters wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:27 pm
As the game is currently, It is still possible to make "Mentoring" RP with just the right mindset, as stated before, there are many ways to aid, mentor, etc without getting in the way of writs even if there is a large level difference.

Thought since this is "Feedback" I'll give what I personally have experienced while doing mentoring on my mage.

1- The exp will be lower, no matter what you do, that is just something to accept as of now.

2- Writs can be done even if you're a demi-god, just be smart and hold back, usually mentoring is giving directives from behind, telling them flaws, "do this, don't do that, watch out for this, you forgot that etc". No matter how we want to sugar coat it , you , being a level 30, being in the front and slaughtering kobolds with 250 crits, that isn't mentoring.

3- If the mechanical value is compromised, then make the RP worth the trip, tips learned from mentoring (real tips) make the player and the character feel like they've learned from their trip, even if the exp in it was average rather than the usual.

Any other point I noticed discussed here, seems to be going into the RP realm, for example :

"If two parties grind in the same area, one with a mentor and one without, it's obvious who will remain."

How is it obvious? Little do you know the mentor would suggest another area for his party to train in, being a "mentor" he probably knows many different spots to train than others, that also depends on the alignment of both parties, of the circumstances of the meeting, etc ... not something that can be judged solemnly because a high level is with a party.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now all that said, since we are here brainstorming for a fair solution, I propose this one, a simple command "-mentor" that makes you enter a state in which you can't attack, you can't use items, you can't cast spells, and any summon you have will be automatically dismissed, you will also be set to automatically -guard yourself in this mode, in that state, you are ignored by the exp dividing system, which means your presence isn't considered when you are in this mode, you also do not receive any experience while being in this mode, nor normal, or adventure.

A person in -mentor mode also shouldn't count towards the party member count for writs, so a mentor being in a party with others, in mentor mode, should allow the party members to do their writs normally so long as the mode is active.

You are visible by all, and you can interact and speak with all, any use of items (even food and water, yes, drink up and eat well before teaching newbies.), any spell cast or any attack delivered in this mode will disable it, the use of -guard will also disable it, with a cooldown of 2-3 ticks (12-18 mins to avoid few possible exploits, because everything is exploitable Jesus Christ..)

This would make it possible to walk with lower level parties and speaking to them through the dungeon, guiding them, mentoring them etc, with the ability to aid them if they screw up, though you aiding them means they'll learn less as you did step up in the fight with either directly fighting, buffing them, or healing them.

Warding your party before activating the mode, whether or not it should be allowed or not is something I'd leave to the team if they do eventually find the idea worthwhile.
The vast majority of PvP that I've been in, seen or heard about is over grind spots. Someone with a mentor would have an advantage.

FWIW The suggestion you put forward is imo the best one so far.

The pve safety net that will be provided is something most players, especially experienced ones, don't need. So while a technical advantage it's not a big one and I can't see it having a big influence on how pve plays.

There's no complex balance issues and huge time investment for a dev to implement it.

There is the concern about group-group PvP interaction, but that could be handled separately if it occurs often.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by WanderingPoet » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:29 pm

I'd want to see writs changed to be completed in parts - so if you take up a writ for the first time that is much harder than expected (like Malarite temple) than you at least get rewarded for the efforts. Tie the various steps of the quest to party level on completion and you can then just cut down on the xp reward on turn in if you're walk through it by a high level - while getting more xp if your average party level is lower. I've always found it a bit strange that you can do a 10-15 writ at level 10 or at 15 and get the same xp, even though the challenge is much harder - and if you can't beat the boss, tough luck, no xp for you.

That said, we had mentoring RP before writs, and that avenue still exists. I really like Eters idea on a -mentor system as it'd help with mentor RP a lot.
The vast majority of PvP that I've been in, seen or heard about is over grind spots. Someone with a mentor would have an advantage.
I find this odd! I've never been in pvp over a grind spot in my 6.5 years on the server. I've had PVP while grinding, but it wasn't "How dare you steal my foes" kind of pvp - 95% of PvP I've been engaged in (which is pretty rare) has been surfacer vs underdarker or demon/devil summoner or necromancer brawls. I'm not sure why (outside of actual conflicts of interest) one couldn't just group up with other people in their grindspot rather than splattering them?
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Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
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More is learned,
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-XXX-
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by -XXX- » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:50 pm

PvP over grind spots sounds very strange. Even if we somewhat dismiss the notion of the obvious passed RP opportunity to team up and interact with the "competition", there's no shortage of alternative grinding spots that you can simply move into in such cases, and this applies virtually to all level ranges. Initiating a PvP encounter over a particular grinding spot sounds as something motivated by OOC reasons and, frankly put, rather silly.

Conversations With Your Car Alarm
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Conversations With Your Car Alarm » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:10 pm

I’ve always considered characters with large level disparity not being able to do dungeons together a good thing. I really enjoy low level conflict and having a high level around changes the nature of that. I like mentors giving tips and advice and quests and sending the chicks out to fend for themselves.

No offense to anyone else’s opinion, of course. Just the way I like it.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Regionals » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:39 pm

While I don't have too strong an opinion about any of this the one thing I am always wary of with high level players getting too mixed up with low-levels is shutting down someone else's RP before they have a chance to even play. Specifically with low level warlocks, necromancers, pirates and the like on the surface. It's one thing if two parties of the same range meet up and someone demonstrates some suspicious sort of behavior-- that's great if they're relatively evenly matched. It's another if a high level is there to smite them immediately. Of course a villain type needs to learn discretion, but it can also be a pain to advance to a point where you are actually a threat or able to defend yourself when so many eyes are on you where everyone is doing writs.

I don't think the answer to this is keeping levels apart as much as presenting options, like expanding Sencliff as a starting area so aspiring evildoers can develop with a little less oversight than you get in Cordor or Earthkin lands.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Marsi » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:22 am

Yeah, I'm with Conversations and Regionals. Arelith has always been about incentivizing its epics to not outstay their welcome and live to be the bulls in the figurative (lowbie RP) china shops. A change such as this would encourage the opposite. Really, lowbie affairs are already infiltrated and suffocated enough by higher-levelled characters, a mechanic such as this would give way to complete subversion.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Irongron » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:25 pm

This very topic came up last time I was away, and as if by some conspiracy has resurfaced the only other week in the year when I'm also away.

Once again then my reply will be brief as I really do not enjoy typing on my phone.

Regarding the mentor system I lean towards the naysayers for pretty much the reasons they've outlined.

That being said the frustration felt by the OP is well founded; it's really hard to RP a mercenary when you find yourself outside the level range of those who wish to hire them.

It's also a major reason for guild inactivity, there's no shortage of players wishing to join groups like the radiant heart, and no shortage of welcoming Pcs, but they generally find themselves unable to party. Historically players have used alts to solve this problem, but it isn't ideal.

For the world's most popular nwn server arelith can be lonely for those with irregular play times, I generally find myself soloing dungeons far more often than I'd like.

Of course mithreas was on top of this years ago with the Arelith Fixed Level server, itself an answer to falling numbers. It wasn't for me but the idea itself was solid.

Ultimately though, I am here to play and build for d&d, and I don't feel one can address the problems arising from level disparity without remaking a large part of it.

So yes, as I said last time perhaps numbers need to be tweaked. A mentoring system might also work as a limited function of settlements/factions, but I can't answer that until we've reviewed the idea in more detail. All I can say for certain is that I now have a sore thumb...

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Joheshua » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:38 am

I just wish I did not have to start a new character when I finally convince someone to come play with me.

Opening up the writ completion to all levels is a simple fix in my opinion.

Going to have to make my same character over just to play with my friends, which is not ideal at all.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Durvayas » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:30 am

What if there were a command to allow a temporary level drain and/or curse that scales your PC to the lowest level member of your party with a -mentor command trigger?

There IS a problem in that cheezy people might use however you cancel this command to remove legitimate level drains, but if there were a way to prevent this issue from arising, I think it could be the answer we seek.
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Nobs » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:17 am

My characters dont see levels they just see if some one is strong or not.

Its mutch more fun to not think about levels when you meet some one in game and just do things with them if you want to.
Played bothes sides of the fence as a level 3 in skal meeting a group that went to kill some half orc and had a great time , And had low levels come with me on my high levels and had a great time with them.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by -XXX- » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:37 pm

There's always been level difference in groups. Leveling itself used to be at slower pace. Inevitably you will end up in level disparities in factions. It's not like.... this'd be some new issue. Then again, what is the point of factions if their members never do anything together?
The only thing that has really changed is overall player attitude - a rather selfish one that puts optimized XP gain and effortless level progression above actual RP and inclusiveness has become quite popular as of late.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by lakhena » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:35 pm

I might be in the minority here, but until last night, I haven't been able to find any low level people to group with since I started playing not long ago, and I really -hate- to solo anything, since I'm here to play a game with other people.

All that is to say that I really appreciate that this server allows high level PCs to run around with low level PCs in any area. Since I couldn't find anyone else around, I dragged a random 20+ level pc pretending to be a mercenary through my first writ, and it was glorious RP the entire time. I personally don't care about the xp penalty (I must have gotten 1 xp for everything), since it's fairly easy to level up early on through just RP ticks and exploration of new areas alone. Hanging out with high levels for RP in low level and mid level areas has been great for my character's development and getting into the thick of things.

I've been on other servers than prohibit grouping with people outside your "level range" and it just makes it an OOC nightmare to determine whether everyone can travel together, plus it can be isolating to get booted from the social circle of friends for something as artificial as level. What we have here may not be ideal for those who want to RP and get full XP, but since I'm old school, I will take any set up that incentives RP in any area, even if it's at the cost of xp gains.

(PS. If there are any low level folks reading this who play during the EST evening hours and want to group up and RP while adventuring, ping me.)
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Lunargent
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Lunargent » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:55 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:50 pm
PvP over grind spots sounds very strange. Even if we somewhat dismiss the notion of the obvious passed RP opportunity to team up and interact with the "competition", there's no shortage of alternative grinding spots that you can simply move into in such cases, and this applies virtually to all level ranges. Initiating a PvP encounter over a particular grinding spot sounds as something motivated by OOC reasons and, frankly put, rather silly.
It might seem strange, but it does happen, especially when there is a person/group circlegrinding or boss logging an area, preventing people doing the dungeon honestly (read: from start to finish) from getting writ completion/xp/loot. Conflict in grinding areas happens most often in the Underdark where most of the characters are evil so fighting over 'territory' isn't OOC in the least.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Regionals » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:36 pm

I think a lot of long-term players cycle through characters quickly, especially in the underdark, so you see players who don't really want to linger in low levels and just want to grind writs ASAP. This leads to conflict over grinding areas and it leads to new players finding it difficult to find other players their level willing to party up and explore.

I certainly get not wanting to play every new character as a new arrival who's totally incompetent and needs to ask for help, though at the same time people could certainly make more effort to not be unfriendly OOC.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Dirac » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:45 pm

As a new player on Arileth, here is my opinion.

Once you get to level 21+, grinding up with players above your level (for example level 30 players when you are 21) doesn't feel to bad. I mean, you get decent exp, can share the loot, and can have multiple other high level players there to interact with. This lubricates the wheels of RP, and just feels very fun to do with friends when I get home from work. It's the type of environment I would like to invite my gaming community to enjoy with.

On the other hand, when doing sub level 20 writs there is such cheese ball restrictions that you would basically have to level your characters side by side with someone else in order to actually do writs together. Heaven forbid you have a tuff week at work and your friend out levels the writ by 3 measly levels - you get screwed. I thought the system was there to encourage interaction, facilitate RP, and have a side order of good exp? But that is not what happens, IMO.

I think I recall someone mentioning that the original writ system had no level restrictions, so in my mind the original design made a heck of a lot more sense in terms of facilitating RP and fun. I mean, you can only do what 3 writs per day, that's like 3-5k exp tops? Why make a system feel like a complete pile of Rothe dung over the possibility of epics carrying lower level characters thru 5k measly exp? That's like what 30-60 minutes of circle grinding? It's a complete and utter over reaction, IMO.

TLDR; It really really feels like the system had a design intent (fun and interaction) and then later on someone didn't like it then made a square wheel out of it. Recommendation is lift the level constraints make the game more fun and less restrictive.
Last edited by Dirac on Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Amineh123
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Amineh123 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:18 pm

Well Dirac put it exactly how I feel it as well, so +1.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by PinataPlethora » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:24 pm

Dirac wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:45 pm
On the other hand, when doing sub level 20 writs there is such cheese ball restrictions that you would basically have to level your characters side by side with someone else in order to actually do writs together. Heaven forbid you have a tuff week at work and your friend out levels you by 3 measly levels - you get screwed. I thought the system was there to encourage interaction, facilitate RP, and have a side order of good exp? But that is not what happens, IMO.
If -losexp returned the lost XP to your adventure pool, and doubled your XP per tick until you recovered the amount lost, would you delevel in order to keep doing writs with your pals?

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