High level difference play.

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Droolguy
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High level difference play.

Post by Droolguy » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:36 am

So, I have a character who is a fairly generic mercenary/guard for hire.

I was hired to protect a group of lower levels doing some of their first quests for the mayor of Skal.

This is something that is easily in character and believable.

Except the fact that I am too high level for the content makes it so that they don't get progress.

Why is this even a thing? They still get kill XP even with me so it does not prevent someone from being power leveled, and even if a character is being handheld through the content they can only take 3 a day, and if said handholding is in character whats the problem?

I would think that it would be encoraged as it helps lower levels be introduced to the server by someone who has been on it longer than they have and can RP mentor them a bit.

Was this perceived as being such a threat to the server that high-level-difference play is frowned upon?

PinataPlethora
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by PinataPlethora » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:08 am

It's not frowned upon. That's what RPB is for. You can RP all you want with anyone you want, whenever and wherever you want, and still get XP for it.

What's frowned upon is having epics steam roll areas for their lowbie friends while they rake in free XP. This is just one of those instances where you can never please everyone or account for every play style and situation, because we all have to follow the same rules in the absence of absolute DM oversight like what you'd have in PnP.

Droolguy
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Droolguy » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:26 am

Right, but I feel that...

A. Outright powerleveling of buddies is very rare, and easily spotted.
B. It causes more harm to legitimate play than good.

Also, were not talking an epic level player either, this was my level 9 helping out some level 4/5s. A level disparity that shouldn't even matter to be honest.

PinataPlethora
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by PinataPlethora » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:59 am

The issue has been addressed before, at great length. Feel free to read this thread and see what you think: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=19200

Droolguy
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Droolguy » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:41 am

I feel that if anything, that thread is an amazing disservice towards the community. At no point did it get out of hand (people were getting frustrated toward the end, but no major insults were EVER said despite being the "reason it was locked"), people were voicing legitimate complaints, and it got locked because the admins didn't have answers or outright refused to provide them. Granted I only read EVERY SINGLE response so I might have missed something.

If anything, that thread and the mismanagement of the situation or complete dismissal from the dev/admin team to the players LEGITIMATE complaints strongly discourages me from playing on the server at all. The whole thread is massively against the system and the only people defending it do it with arguments that are so far from being statistically meaningful as to be completely inconsequential.

As a matter of fact, I take moral objection to this after reading that and am leaving the server. Not because the system is mechanically flawed, but because the people running the server appear to be.

I would be delusional to think that anyone who reads this is really going to care but I feel the need to point out that this, and that specific thread, drove away a player who had up to this point be having fun.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by PinataPlethora » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:51 am

Okay, bye.

Vrass
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Vrass » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:10 am

Seriously?... :roll:

Dr_Hazard89
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:18 am

Droolguy wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:41 am
I feel that if anything, that thread is an amazing disservice towards the community. At no point did it get out of hand (people were getting frustrated toward the end, but no major insults were EVER said despite being the "reason it was locked"), people were voicing legitimate complaints, and it got locked because the admins didn't have answers or outright refused to provide them. Granted I only read EVERY SINGLE response so I might have missed something.

If anything, that thread and the mismanagement of the situation or complete dismissal from the dev/admin team to the players LEGITIMATE complaints strongly discourages me from playing on the server at all. The whole thread is massively against the system and the only people defending it do it with arguments that are so far from being statistically meaningful as to be completely inconsequential.

As a matter of fact, I take moral objection to this after reading that and am leaving the server. Not because the system is mechanically flawed, but because the people running the server appear to be.

I would be delusional to think that anyone who reads this is really going to care but I feel the need to point out that this, and that specific thread, drove away a player who had up to this point be having fun.
I read what you're saying and I care. I hope you come back, for the server's sake and I'm sorry you feel that way.
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Seekeepeek » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:35 am

I will be making assumptions about you, so iam possibly wrong about everything. (that often happen... *gasps*)

you sound like a guy that just want to be helpful and kind to others, and your frustrated over the current system dosn't allow such with your current play style and character. There is a few other niches at Arelith, where you can help others without limitations:

1. Make caster with the feat epic spell focus enchantment + a magic god to help newbies with gear.
2. get to lvl 21 with your current character and take on guard jobs for characters in the level range 21-30
3. become a shop owner and craft people items and take item requests.
4. join one of the factions at Arelith or make one your self to create rp.
5. become involved in politics.
6. others i can't think of right now...

Either way the current system is like it is.. since of a few bad apples are ruining it for the majority. it ain't your fault and as you said it's easy to spot those bad apples.. however the DMs shouldn't use all their time being the police. (They are players like you)

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Liareth
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Liareth » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:21 am

Droolguy wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:41 am
I feel that if anything, that thread is an amazing disservice towards the community. At no point did it get out of hand (people were getting frustrated toward the end, but no major insults were EVER said despite being the "reason it was locked"), people were voicing legitimate complaints, and it got locked because the admins didn't have answers or outright refused to provide them. Granted I only read EVERY SINGLE response so I might have missed something.

If anything, that thread and the mismanagement of the situation or complete dismissal from the dev/admin team to the players LEGITIMATE complaints strongly discourages me from playing on the server at all. The whole thread is massively against the system and the only people defending it do it with arguments that are so far from being statistically meaningful as to be completely inconsequential.

As a matter of fact, I take moral objection to this after reading that and am leaving the server. Not because the system is mechanically flawed, but because the people running the server appear to be.

I would be delusional to think that anyone who reads this is really going to care but I feel the need to point out that this, and that specific thread, drove away a player who had up to this point be having fun.
No active administrators actually responded to that thread. Arelith is developed by admins (who have creative control) and contributors (who have a level of freedom to work on what they want, so long as it falls within the vision of the admin team). The only 'official' response in there was from yellowcateyes, the contributor who implemented the writ system.

I don't believe they dismissed players at all in that thread. Rather, they outlined why they made the decisions they did when implementing the system, and respectfully countered opposite perspectives with their own. The thread was locked because the contributor had made it clear that they disagreed with the provided feedback and the thread had degraded into moral outrage trolling (hello BegoneThoth). You're welcome to disagree with the reason for the lock, but time and experience on these forums will soon teach you that contentious threads almost always become useless and toxic after a certain period.

If you've decided to quit because one developer said (paraphrased) "thanks for the feedback but I disagree with you; I have a vision for this system and it is going to remain true to that vision for now" then you're either very sensitive (not a good fit for the Arelith forums; trust me, everyone can be rude and entitled here at times, myself included!) or you were already actively looking for a reason to quit. I don't think you're very sensitive because the tone of your posts so far has been quite abrasive. I care and I hope you change your mind.

To the topic at hand - I definitely agree with you. I said as much in the linked thread. I don't think letting high levels boost low levels through writs is the answer, because it trivialises the game system by turning it into a free exp cookie. The correct solution to this problem is to introduce a mentoring system that allows high levels to temporarily reduce themselves to match (or slightly exceed) the combat prowess of the low levels, which would make adventure-based RP between high levels and low levels more realistic, more fun, and much more mechanically rewarding.

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Sockss
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Sockss » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:51 pm

Arelith is an RP game. It's important to remember it's a game.

If you're not interested in playing a game you'll be happier in a pure roleplay environment.

RE: Mentoring. A system in which a level 30 who can happily kill demons on other planes is suddenly and willfully being smooshed by kobolds doesn't make all that much sense. (Mechanical complexity with handling gear/spells etc aside)

Higher level characters can already offer assistance to lower level characters through money, gear, consumables and buffs if they choose to.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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Liareth
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Liareth » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:03 pm

Sockss wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:51 pm
RE: Mentoring. A system in which a level 30 who can happily kill demons on other planes is suddenly and willfully being smooshed by kobolds doesn't make all that much sense. (Mechanical complexity with handling gear/spells etc aside)
The "doesn't make much sense" argument doesn't make much sense to me. Things that don't make much sense: the character power arc from 1 to 30 and reconciling relative differences in character power with the RP narrative. Things that make sense: a high-level character intentionally holding back their blows (in other words, mentoring) to assist in the training of a low-level character. Also: "Arelith is an RP game. It's important to remember it's a game".

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Ebonstar
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Ebonstar » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:57 pm

Droolguy wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:36 am
So, I have a character who is a fairly generic mercenary/guard for hire.

I was hired to protect a group of lower levels doing some of their first quests for the mayor of Skal.

This is something that is easily in character and believable.

Except the fact that I am too high level for the content makes it so that they don't get progress.

Why is this even a thing? They still get kill XP even with me so it does not prevent someone from being power leveled, and even if a character is being handheld through the content they can only take 3 a day, and if said handholding is in character whats the problem?

I would think that it would be encoraged as it helps lower levels be introduced to the server by someone who has been on it longer than they have and can RP mentor them a bit.

Was this perceived as being such a threat to the server that high-level-difference play is frowned upon?
sorry that you may choose to leave, but you realize you can travel and mentor so to speak while not being in the party and therefore not hindering their progress.

About the comments about our teams, they do this as volunteers and not as employees so any comments to them is grossly out of line as they continue to provide the best sandbox for everyone for FREE.
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Ebonstar
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Ebonstar » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:02 pm

on the same line of thought, if you were mentoring, you as the mentor can take off your enhancing gear and use a weapon not your norm and activate subdual so you dont kill everything in one or two hits. Thus giving your mentee's the safe feeling of being mentored while they can have good shots to make the kill
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Sockss
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Sockss » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:16 pm

Liareth wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:03 pm
Sockss wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:51 pm
RE: Mentoring. A system in which a level 30 who can happily kill demons on other planes is suddenly and willfully being smooshed by kobolds doesn't make all that much sense. (Mechanical complexity with handling gear/spells etc aside)
The "doesn't make much sense" argument doesn't make much sense to me. Things that don't make much sense: the character power arc from 1 to 30 and reconciling relative differences in character power with the RP narrative. Things that make sense: a high-level character intentionally holding back their blows (in other words, mentoring) to assist in the training of a low-level character. Also: "Arelith is an RP game. It's important to remember it's a game".
It's not a high level character Holding back their blows though. It's a high level character becoming weak enough to find an area challenging. So the low level monsters that'd normally be insignificant to them are now actually a challenge.

Arelith is also an RP game and I don't believe this change would further any RP as a whole or introduce anything interesting in terms of gameplay. While being very very difficult (if impossible) to keep balanced (even the consumable advantage of a level thirty character is significant).

Why nothing new? Because people can already group with level appropriate characters. Higher levels can already help lower level characters.

Why won't it help RP? Because it further promotes very insular groups of players. You might find the odd person that is doing so to help people out but I'm willing to bet the vast majority of help will be for profoundly ooc reasons.

Even if by some miracle the system is balanced. Parties with mentors have a distinct advantage over others. If two parties meet grinding an area and one has a mentor, it's obvious which will stay to grind.

The lower hanging fruit and one that is actually feasible would surely be to make it easier for people to find groups. An lfg system built into an adventurers guild would be neat.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:31 pm

I'm obviously in agreement with you, Droolguy, on how it hampers the Roleplay. That said, I do understand the reasoning behind the change, I just don't agree.

There are things you can still do to continue helping lower level toons, it's just a tad bit harder than it was before that change. Many of those things have already been mentioned, but one that I often see (and do myself as a high-level character) is to go along with the group but simply stay out of their party mechanically.
The high level simply deals damage without the intent to kill, letting the lower level toons get the kills. Their experience will still be hampered from kills, because of the high-level presence, but they will get writ credit and you will have successfully helped them.

And no, it is definitely not against the rules, regardless of what this change is 'subtly' trying to tell us. If a high level ever gets punished for Roleplaying with lower-levels, then we need a different outrage. Thankfully, I don't think it's come to that and I don't think it will.


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Re: High level difference play.

Post by msterswrdsmn » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:00 pm

I'd like to point out theres nothing stopping you mechanically from going down and helping people. You just can't be in the party with them, and the people with the writ have to be the ones dealing the killing blows on the listed enemies.

I've gone around on Sei helping lower level people with higher-difficulty areas on the mainland writs. Granted, this resulted in some hilarious "whoopsie" moments like having to kill the Talassian Stormlord 3 times because Sei kept "accidentally forgetting" and getting the killing blow. But its still doable!

You need to
-Hold back with the killing until the involved party gets the needed prerequisite kills
-Not deal the deathblow to a boss
-Not -guard anyone
-Accept that you being a higher level will make the spawns harder on everyone else

Softening up harder enemies, acting as a stationary distraction, healing, and sideline buffing still goes a long way!

The reasoning for the restriction to begin with is to prevent lower, weaker people that just barely qualify for a writ to get large xp gains for using the -follow command and afking (or the equivalent).

This isn't an issue thats new to writs, incidentally. For example; boss heads used to give you XP. They don't anymore ,because some people would farm heads and dump them on a friends new character, letting them jump instantly to double-digits overnight. Keep in mind, this is back in the day when your average player took 2-3 RL months to get to level 10 with some hard grinding in between.

"Carrying friends" is not something the server wants to encourage.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Droolguy » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:45 pm

Liareth wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:21 am
No active administrators actually responded to that thread. Arelith is developed by admins (who have creative control) and contributors (who have a level of freedom to work on what they want, so long as it falls within the vision of the admin team). The only 'official' response in there was from yellowcateyes, the contributor who implemented the writ system.
This is a very big problem, one of the points I gathered from that thread that has made me step away from the server for now. If at the time it is the most active and divisive thread on the forums. A response from the admin team is warranted, hell, required. If the admin team did not want to respond for fear of rubbing the community or the developer the wrong way. Then this shows an aversion and avoidance of conflict, which is something that absolutely can not exist in management.

Being management *IS* conflict, so the lack of a decisive response from the administrative team to defend the system is damning to say the least. Leadership is the ability to bring pieces together in compromise that still propel your goals forward, not to ignore most of the pieces before they go away for feelings of impotency.
I don't believe they dismissed players at all in that thread. Rather, they outlined why they made the decisions they did when implementing the system, and respectfully countered opposite perspectives with their own. The thread was locked because the contributor had made it clear that they disagreed with the provided feedback and the thread had degraded into moral outrage trolling (hello BegoneThoth). You're welcome to disagree with the reason for the lock, but time and experience on these forums will soon teach you that contentious threads almost always become useless and toxic after a certain period.
I think that you completely missed why people were getting angry and what was propelling their "moral outrage".

It was because after several reasonable requests for the need of the system be explained or the system be modified to be less of a physical wall. No official responses were ever given.

People got confused and angry why such a high visibility system was put into place and we're almost completely ignored.

dis·mis·sive
disˈmisiv
adjective
feeling or showing that something is unworthy of consideration.

That hits the nail right on the head, as not responding at all is directly showing that it is not worthy of a response.

Literal situation I ran into that brought this issue to my attention: Group of level 3/4 players running their first sets of writs (Three of them, playing mainly support classes) dies and requests help from my Lawful Neutral mercenary (Lvl 9) for help, they make a deal with him for future favors of his choosing. Come to find out despite literally being his in character job, it's impossible to accomplish in game because of reasons that are explained nowhere. Even though my character could still be very much hurt by the content and the roleplay made complete sense.
If you've decided to quit because one developer said (paraphrased) "thanks for the feedback but I disagree with you; I have a vision for this system and it is going to remain true to that vision for now" then you're either very sensitive (not a good fit for the Arelith forums; trust me, everyone can be rude and entitled here at times, myself included!) or you were already actively looking for a reason to quit. I don't think you're very sensitive because the tone of your posts so far has been quite abrasive. I care and I hope you change your mind.
Sensitive I am not, that's for sure. I say exactly what I mean at all times and don't pander to peoples emotions.

I did not decide to leave because of one developer, I decided to leave because of the lack of reasoning behind the choice to implement the system and/or the lack of an explanation of that reasoning.

I do not have the desire to play on a server where arbitrary changes with no clear purpose will be suddenly implemented with no recourse. Especially if I was to invest hundreds of hours of time into building characters.
To the topic at hand - I definitely agree with you. I said as much in the linked thread. I don't think letting high levels boost low levels through writs is the answer, because it trivialises the game system by turning it into a free exp cookie. The correct solution to this problem is to introduce a mentoring system that allows high levels to temporarily reduce themselves to match (or slightly exceed) the combat prowess of the low levels, which would make adventure-based RP between high levels and low levels more realistic, more fun, and much more mechanically rewarding.
Near any change would be better than what is currently used, as mechanical hard caps are just about the worst systems possible for roleplay reasons.

I saw the mentor suggestion in the thread and while I think it would be better than what is currently in place (and so would support the change), it is a very meta solution. Simply changing the way that experience is given for the writ to take into account all levels playing with each other, all the time (which is the nature of a roleplay server), could easily be completely transparent to the player from a roleplay standpoint and make perfect sense.

Take the experience portion of the reward, move it to the individual kills themselves as instant XP which is then reduced by the standard level difference reduction to kill XP (that scales the whole game already). Give the gold at full amount for turning in the completed quest. This would reflect characters learning less because they did not do it themselves, conforms to already accepted XP standards, and allows people who are carried to pocket gold that they can then use to buy gear so that they do not need the assistance in the future.

This is a moot discussion from my point though as I wholly plan to sticking to my guns so to speak. I will check back from time to time to see if a change has been made, and if any change is made I will come back and play. If not, then I wont.

Mainly because it's easy for people to talk about something changing, but nothing really matters if it doesn't actually change.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Droolguy » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:50 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:31 pm
I'm obviously in agreement with you, Droolguy, on how it hampers the Roleplay. That said, I do understand the reasoning behind the change, I just don't agree.

There are things you can still do to continue helping lower level toons, it's just a tad bit harder than it was before that change. Many of those things have already been mentioned, but one that I often see (and do myself as a high-level character) is to go along with the group but simply stay out of their party mechanically.
The high level simply deals damage without the intent to kill, letting the lower level toons get the kills. Their experience will still be hampered from kills, because of the high-level presence, but they will get writ credit and you will have successfully helped them.

And no, it is definitely not against the rules, regardless of what this change is 'subtly' trying to tell us. If a high level ever gets punished for Roleplaying with lower-levels, then we need a different outrage. Thankfully, I don't think it's come to that and I don't think it will.
I have had to do this, several times. It is tedious to say the least and feels very much like cheating.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Liareth » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:05 pm

Sockss wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:16 pm
Liareth wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:03 pm
Sockss wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:51 pm
RE: Mentoring. A system in which a level 30 who can happily kill demons on other planes is suddenly and willfully being smooshed by kobolds doesn't make all that much sense. (Mechanical complexity with handling gear/spells etc aside)
The "doesn't make much sense" argument doesn't make much sense to me. Things that don't make much sense: the character power arc from 1 to 30 and reconciling relative differences in character power with the RP narrative. Things that make sense: a high-level character intentionally holding back their blows (in other words, mentoring) to assist in the training of a low-level character. Also: "Arelith is an RP game. It's important to remember it's a game".
It's not a high level character Holding back their blows though. It's a high level character becoming weak enough to find an area challenging. So the low level monsters that'd normally be insignificant to them are now actually a challenge.

Arelith is also an RP game and I don't believe this change would further any RP as a whole or introduce anything interesting in terms of gameplay. While being very very difficult (if impossible) to keep balanced (even the consumable advantage of a level thirty character is significant).

Why nothing new? Because people can already group with level appropriate characters. Higher levels can already help lower level characters.

Why won't it help RP? Because it further promotes very insular groups of players. You might find the odd person that is doing so to help people out but I'm willing to bet the vast majority of help will be for profoundly ooc reasons.

Even if by some miracle the system is balanced. Parties with mentors have a distinct advantage over others. If two parties meet grinding an area and one has a mentor, it's obvious which will stay to grind.

The lower hanging fruit and one that is actually feasible would surely be to make it easier for people to find groups. An lfg system built into an adventurers guild would be neat.
It's actually pretty easy to balance to an acceptable level. Calculate the average AB of the party (or the highest member). Cap AB to 1 above it. Calculate the average damage per round of the party (or the highest member). Cap damage per round to 2 above it. Average saves (or the highest member). Cap 1 above them. Average AC (or the highest member). Cap 1 above it. Cap spell effects to average level (or the highest member) + 1. Consider the mentor the average level (or the highest member) + 1 for the purposes of exp calculations. Half mentor exp gain if you're paranoid. Yes, the mentor has more spells/day and greater utility due to consumables, but it doesn't need to be perfectly balanced - this way is certainly more balanced than the "drop party and punch mobs down to help and heal and buff" psuedo-exploit.

I disagree with your other points, too. It would be something new and I would love it. I always get bored at mid-high epics because most of the cool adventure RP happens at low levels. I'd love to be able to drop my level and participate without screwing them over. (And make no mistake - you ARE screwing over a low level group if you join as an epic, no matter how you mince words). If two parties are grinding an area and one has a mentor, so what if the other has to leave? They would have to leave in the same situation without a mentor. Also, definitely disagree that it would promote a very insular group of players. That's what happens right now with level tiers - you either have a group of same-levelled players to grind with or you don't. A mentoring system would allow more players to interact together more easily.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Griefmaker » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:09 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:31 pm
I'm obviously in agreement with you, Droolguy, on how it hampers the Roleplay. That said, I do understand the reasoning behind the change, I just don't agree.

There are things you can still do to continue helping lower level toons, it's just a tad bit harder than it was before that change. Many of those things have already been mentioned, but one that I often see (and do myself as a high-level character) is to go along with the group but simply stay out of their party mechanically.
The high level simply deals damage without the intent to kill, letting the lower level toons get the kills. Their experience will still be hampered from kills, because of the high-level presence, but they will get writ credit and you will have successfully helped them.

And no, it is definitely not against the rules, regardless of what this change is 'subtly' trying to tell us. If a high level ever gets punished for Roleplaying with lower-levels, then we need a different outrage. Thankfully, I don't think it's come to that and I don't think it will.
I have to agree here with MissEvelyn's post, though will say it is more than a tad harder...unless you are a caster, then you can buff up people with ease and let them loose. But that is not what I want to do, because that is not really interactive RP. What I like to do is more like that msterswrdsmn says, though sometimes you have to be even more careful which can be a pain. It is doable, but having to worry over arbitrary OOC mechanics instead of the current game and story and most importantly RP rather sucks.

The whole carrying friends argument I can understand and appreciate, but...eh. I had a whole post about how OOC mechanics that stifle RP in any fashion do not belong on an RP server, unless the RP goes against the server's rules, but instead I will just leave it at that:

OOC mechanics that stifle RP in any fashion do not belong on an RP server, unless the RP goes against the server's rules.

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Re: High level difference play.

Post by PinataPlethora » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:11 pm

Droolguy wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:45 pm
I decided to leave[...]
Could've fooled me.

Droolguy wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:45 pm
I saw the mentor suggestion in the thread and while I think it would be better than what is currently in place (and so would support the change), it is a very meta solution. Simply changing the way that experience is given for the writ to take into account all levels playing with each other, all the time (which is the nature of a roleplay server), could easily be completely transparent to the player from a roleplay standpoint and make perfect sense.

Take the experience portion of the reward, move it to the individual kills themselves as instant XP which is then reduced by the standard level difference reduction to kill XP (that scales the whole game already). Give the gold at full amount for turning in the completed quest. This would reflect characters learning less because they did not do it themselves, conforms to already accepted XP standards, and allows people who are carried to pocket gold that they can then use to buy gear so that they do not need the assistance in the future.
You should put this in the suggestion box. The admins generally don't dig around in the other forums for change ideas, since (as you can see) the threads get cluttered very quickly.

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flower
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by flower » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:19 pm

I do not know in my oppinion player should not receive reward from quest or task without effort. Being carried trough writ by high level even if for gold, sounds like that. You feel it is alright? I am not so certain. Where is the challenge from playing, then?

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msterswrdsmn
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by msterswrdsmn » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:23 pm

It's actually pretty easy to balance to an acceptable level. Calculate the average AB of the party (or the highest member). Cap AB to 1 above it. Calculate the average damage per round of the party (or the highest member). Cap damage per round to 2 above it. Average saves (or the highest member). Cap 1 above them. Average AC (or the highest member). Cap 1 above it. Cap spell effects to average level (or the highest member) + 1. Consider the mentor the average level (or the highest member) + 1 for the purposes of exp calculations. Half mentor exp gain if you're paranoid. Yes, the mentor has more spells/day and greater utility due to consumables, but it doesn't need to be perfectly balanced - this way is certainly more balanced than the "drop party and punch mobs down to help and heal and buff" psuedo-exploit.
That sounds really drawn out, and sadly, still wouldn't work well with balancing. Theres a lot off not-always-on-paper stuff that greatly influences how strong some people are. Bursty builds, builds with outside help prior to farming, or stuff that just looks terrible on paper but still does really well with pve comes to mind.

I'd also like to point out that this is a real thing in real life too. As someone thats worked as a trainer at my last few jobs for 10 years? Theres a HUGE difference between someone who sat back and watched their trainer, and someone that got thrown right in front of a burning truck and told "LOL, wha'cha gonna do now?"

Doing things yourself is the best way to learn. Even if you need help in the beginning, hand-holding really holds back development. If they're really, really struggling, its okay to step in and guide them (or soften mobs/heal/etc) but literally doing everything for them really isn't doing anyone any good. Its rare for people to know exactly what to do when you throw a burning truck at them, so SOME intervention and guidance is gonna be needed, but you can't expect them to learn if you do everything for them.

So. Thumbs up for that "realism" everyone asks for with the writ system!
Last edited by msterswrdsmn on Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Liareth
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Re: High level difference play.

Post by Liareth » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:29 pm

Droolguy wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:45 pm
Liareth wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:21 am
No active administrators actually responded to that thread. Arelith is developed by admins (who have creative control) and contributors (who have a level of freedom to work on what they want, so long as it falls within the vision of the admin team). The only 'official' response in there was from yellowcateyes, the contributor who implemented the writ system.
This is a very big problem, one of the points I gathered from that thread that has made me step away from the server for now. If at the time it is the most active and divisive thread on the forums. A response from the admin team is warranted, hell, required. If the admin team did not want to respond for fear of rubbing the community or the developer the wrong way. Then this shows an aversion and avoidance of conflict, which is something that absolutely can not exist in management.

Being management *IS* conflict, so the lack of a decisive response from the administrative team to defend the system is damning to say the least. Leadership is the ability to bring pieces together in compromise that still propel your goals forward, not to ignore most of the pieces before they go away for feelings of impotency.
I get what you're saying, but there's something you need to remember - everyone working on Arelith is a volunteer. It's one thing to recite leadership101.txt in this thread while framing yourself as an all-knowing expert, but it's another thing entirely to wear those shoes - to manage a large development team in your spare time while trying to please thousands of players and strike a compromise between what you as a developer want, what your team wants, and the hundreds of flavours that your players prefer.

Arelith is a very large server and you can't please everybody on it. Trying to is an impossible task. It's absolutely exhausting and it's the reason I burnt out when I was an admin. They are doing their best to make a great server and sometimes the result of that is a change that some players don't like. Ultimately, players don't own, run, or maintain the server, nor do they pay to be here. There is no customer service representative relationship here.

Quite frankly, the admin team have much more important things to do than write a long justification post in response to Yet Another Update Complaint Thread, especially when that response has already been covered adequately by a contributor. If the lack if an admin response to that thread is a deal-breaker for you then I think you've hit the nail on the head - this server probably isn't for you. And that's fine, there's plenty of other servers out there. Go and try them.

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