Timestop Suggestions

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Hunter548
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Hunter548 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:40 pm

Atlantahammy wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:07 pm
Which are all valid points, this a Roleplay server, not a PVP server....
While yes, the server is an RP server, PVP balance is still important, especially because of Arelith's historical philosophy towards what RP should look like; Namely, that players should be creating and driving it, and DMs should largely be helping that along rather than directly telling the stories. This inevitably means that there will be players on both sides of the story, which of course means some pvp is more or less inevitable. If, say for example, Banites are inherently substantially stronger than Triadists, or Sharran Mages inherently stronger than Tower Mages, that is going to drive and affect stories between these groups as long as there is conflift between them. PvP is a tool for stories, and shouldn't be weighted too heavily one way or the other.
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:37 pm

Atlantahammy wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:37 pm
(Like a recent suggestion to make it take LONGER for someone to lens where people could PVP someone, taking a person's choice away to engage in pvp, and just get grossly curb-stomped by their attackers. Not to mention how highly it would get abused.)[/i]
I'm so glad I wasn't the only one thinking the same thing! Portal Lenses really don't need nerfing.


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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:35 am

yellowcateyes wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:54 pm
Quick note: I am still traveling and inactive, so do not take anything in this post as an official position or decision on this matter. These are just some personal drive-by observations.

1) Timestop on Arelith has already been nerfed to disfavor UMD users and favor native casters.

2) Adding significantly to UMD requirements of important consumables only makes the Human race that much more attractive, given the value of skill points in Arelith. 'Optimized' characters with a late epic skill dump will easily adapt with a level 29 or 30 relevel. Less optimized characters will be hit harder.

3) Adding significant component and material costs to make a spell 'rarer' will only benefit players with the time, resources, and awareness to prepare for PvP. That is to say, it will only widen the gap between mechanically savvy players with lots of grind time, and the more casual playerbase that might not be interested in optimal gearing/preparation.

It would be a needless addition to inventory clutter, and PvP enthusiasts will still use Timestop when advantageous anyways.

4) Giving Timestop a 'universal' or area-wide cooldown would incentivize being the first to use it in a combat, giving people more reason to 'jump the gun' and be the initiators of PvP, rather than roleplay out tense situations.


I'm not convinced the spell needs a nerf at this time. Timestop can be powerful when used wisely (as suits a 9th level spell). But from personal observation, time stop castings are squandered or superfluous far more often than they are decisive.
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Eters » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:32 am

Perhaps making the universal cooldown per /party/ rather than per area? Granted it's not foolproof (nothingisfoolproof :( ), but party members would have to decide which of them uses the timestop, (makes tactics important) so in a battle between 2 parties, you'd only see 2 timestops being fired, one from each side. Rather than a chain.

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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:29 pm

I would never, ever spend a spell slot on a time stop if I had to worry that I wouldn't be the only one around with the ability to use it were such restrictions placed on it.

The functionality it has now is in a good place, IMO, and I understand how not being one of the people using time-stop can be irritating in a fight involving multiple casters... but things like air exploding and time stopping and starting and skipping while the ground melts down into a pit and gravity reverses itself are all common in fights that involve multiple mages. It's kind of a staple of the setting when you get to those levels.

It can be an amazing spell in just the right circumstances with just the right timing, but I agree that more often than not a majority of its potential is wasted prematurely in the fight before that moment can come. The optimal time is any time anyone from either side of a fight drops to badly injured; if it's an ally you can focus your efforts on their situation, if it's an enemy, you can guarantee their death.

Even better is when multiple people hit badly injured. That takes patience that, IMO, most people don't have in the adrenaline rush of combat and the panic that takes over when they get knocked down for half their health, especially if they've already used their GSANC for buffing or other utility purposes.
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by The Kriv » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:00 pm

Having been the victim of Timestop spam in PVP, Maybe a good in-between would be to treat Timestop like Invisibility.

The effect is broken on the attack. That would allow for the bonus to the side of the conflict to properly buff themselves, get into position and take the first strike... but once that first swing is given by anyone benefitting from the Timestop, the effect ends.

The great benefit being to the initial casting side who can take a moment, while the others are frozen in time... coordinate their first strike... casters have the luxury of uninterruptable casting... with tactics winning out over a spell-style spamed stun-effect.

Even if chain-time-stop spells are cast consecutively, the benefits of physical attacks by the acting side are more limited without turning them into jackhammers on the stunned/time-stopped victim side.

It would also be limited by AOE damage spells who's additional 'ticks' of damage would break the 2nd casted Time-stop, meaning again... smart spell choice and tactics become paramount.
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Hunter548 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:15 am

The Kriv wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:00 pm
Having been the victim of Timestop spam in PVP, Maybe a good in-between would be to treat Timestop like Invisibility.

The effect is broken on the attack. That would allow for the bonus to the side of the conflict to properly buff themselves, get into position and take the first strike... but once that first swing is given by anyone benefitting from the Timestop, the effect ends.

This would make timestop 100% worthless. Mages already have a spell that does everything you're talking about, that lasts longer, and is a lower level - Greater Sanctuary.

Timestop is probably in a really good place balance-wise, right now. A lot of the blowback against it seems to stem from people blowing it in really bad uses -- one after the other, at the beginning of the fight. It's already about as nerfed for non-casters as it needs to be, in my opinion, and I don't think these various timer suggestions would actually help much; Putting it on a one-area timer just incentivizes getting the drop on the other party (more than that's already incentivized). Putting it on a party timer just means that parties will be forced to coordinate OOC, probably through a discord voice chat, to avoid blocking each other trying to get the timestop off. Not something I imagine the devs want to encourage.
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by The Kriv » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:02 am

Hunter548 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:15 am
Mages already have a spell that does everything you're talking about, that lasts longer, and is a lower level - Greater Sanctuary.
Greater Sanctuary
Range: personal
Area of effect: caster
Description: The caster becomes ethereal. No other creature can detect the caster. Attacking or performing a hostile action will make the etherealness vanish.

This seems very different from Time-stop, where a hostile action breaks the Timestop effect.

--Greater Sanctuary is does not creat a condition that 100% of non-party members become frozen, while the caster, and all of their associated party-mates may move about freely.

Also, casting Greater Sancutary doesn't prevent the opposing side from fleeing, or buffing themselves, casting summoning spells or attacking your party-mates.

Leaving TIme-Stop as it is, and allowing it's duration to run its course provided no hostile-acts occur leaves it as a tactical spell for a party, and less a nearly guaranteed 1 vs 1 death for the person affected by the time-stop. (of course, very skilled characters or well equipped can survive such)

It's value in interrupting the time-stopees and giving advantage to the time-stoppers remains, but lessens it as the pivital move creating a near death-sentence condition for 90% of its victims, while still keeping quite an immense tactical advantage to it's caster.

Essentially it removes the stun-lock as soon as the actual damage starts. But still powerful and still tactical.
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by flower » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:04 am

Meleers cannot use time stop to kill you with it unless you are badly injured.


And i see no reason to strip mages of timestop for hostile use with spells, with so many characters havign such high saves.

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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Droolguy » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:19 am

The only servers I have ever seen with balanced PvP have had timestop banned.

It’s the only completely unsaveable area wide hard CC in the game, the literal “I win.” button that can be extended forever with proper round management.

People contantly try and talk about how it can be saved, but it cant, not without fundamentally changing how the spell works.

Remove it from the game and watch everything get appreciably better instantly.

If everyone is dead set on keeping it then simply make it useable once every six minutes to conform with the RPR/AXP tick. A fight would then have to last 100 rounds in order for someone to cast it again.

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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Not Enough Skillpoints » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:50 am

Droolguy wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:19 am
the literal “I win.” button that can be extended forever
You are aware it has a cooldown, yes?

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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Disciprine Come From Within » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:30 am

The current nerfs to timestop.

It only lasts for 1 round.
It has a 2 minute timer on recast.
It provides full immunity to physical damage unless the character is under 50% health.

If there is any beef I have with Timestop, it is the fact that it's best designated as a scroll only spell. As it is, I see no reason to ever waste a spellslot with it. The effect is short lived and not many things can turn around a whole battle in a single round of free control. It's at best a finisher in it's current state and still has the usual problems that I have with the current magic climate. If I was to cast this spell, I'm going to follow up with Greater Ruin, Hellball, then a round of IGMS and hope I win. That's the tactic. Blowing your entire wad to kill 1 person. It's not a fun way to lose and it's a lackluster feeling to win.

I'd like to see the spell more worthwhile to put in as a spell slot and less reason to scribe it as a scroll. That's a bigger issue with it right now. Nerf it further and it turns into something not even worth the cost of making into a scroll or casting like so many other poor spells.

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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Hunter548 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:20 pm

Droolguy wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:19 am
If everyone is dead set on keeping it then simply make it useable once every six minutes to conform with the RPR/AXP tick. A fight would then have to last 100 rounds in order for someone to cast it again.
Timestop already has exactly the kind of cooldown you describe (albeit for 3 minutes iirc) and has for years.
The Kriv wrote: Greater Sanctuary
Range: personal
Area of effect: caster
Description: The caster becomes ethereal. No other creature can detect the caster. Attacking or performing a hostile action will make the etherealness vanish.

This seems very different from Time-stop, where a hostile action breaks the Timestop effect.

--Greater Sanctuary is does not creat a condition that 100% of non-party members become frozen, while the caster, and all of their associated party-mates may move about freely.

Also, casting Greater Sancutary doesn't prevent the opposing side from fleeing, or buffing themselves, casting summoning spells or attacking your party-mates.

Leaving TIme-Stop as it is, and allowing it's duration to run its course provided no hostile-acts occur leaves it as a tactical spell for a party, and less a nearly guaranteed 1 vs 1 death for the person affected by the time-stop. (of course, very skilled characters or well equipped can survive such)

It's value in interrupting the time-stopees and giving advantage to the time-stoppers remains, but lessens it as the pivital move creating a near death-sentence condition for 90% of its victims, while still keeping quite an immense tactical advantage to it's caster.

Essentially it removes the stun-lock as soon as the actual damage starts. But still powerful and still tactical.
While you're right that greater sanctuary doesn't prevent the other side from buffing, it does prevent them from hurting you - and, not to stress this enough, lasts four times as long as timestop when extended, for the same slot. 9 seconds, or three spells, just is not that useful for buffing purposes.

Essentially, a mage with your proposed change, mages who are alone would never be using timestop for anything other than ensuring their greater sanctuary goes off without being interupted. That is not a useful enough spell to justify a 9th level slot for, especially considering it can still be counter-timestopped.
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:32 pm

You can also knock people out of Gsanc, by dispelling them. Which technically shouldn't be possible, but it is.
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:00 pm

From the pack of response, I'm guessing that the Beamdog nerf to timestop I mentioned is NOT in effect on Arelith?
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:08 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:00 pm
From the pack of response, I'm guessing that the Beamdog nerf to timestop I mentioned is NOT in effect on Arelith?
Oh. I don't think it is, no.
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Sockss » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:26 pm

Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:30 am
If there is any beef I have with Timestop, it is the fact that it's best designated as a scroll only spell. As it is, I see no reason to ever waste a spellslot with it.
Timestop is 50% more effective if you cast it while hasted.
Some people can't afford to be still for an entire round in PvP
Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:32 pm
You can also knock people out of Gsanc, by dispelling them. Which technically shouldn't be possible, but it is.
Why not?
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Hexgoblin » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:31 pm

I'll echo the above, in regards to haste and timestop. It's huge.

I've never played a mage without preparing it for that very reason, personally. The only reason I'd carry scrolls of it, as opposed to casting it myself, is if I catch my opponent actively trying to counterspell. The scroll can't be counterspelled.

But whether you're using timestop as a means of pelting a target with fixed damage IGMS that no healing bar -pray can interfere with, layering an area with cloud spells, or to secure a spread of disjunctions across several targets, fitting another spell into that sequence by performing it while hasted is invaluable. The scroll use on the other hand will consume your entire casting round, whether hasted or not.

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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:32 pm

Sockss wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:26 pm
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:30 am
If there is any beef I have with Timestop, it is the fact that it's best designated as a scroll only spell. As it is, I see no reason to ever waste a spellslot with it.
Timestop is 50% more effective if you cast it while hasted.
Some people can't afford to be still for an entire round in PvP
Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:32 pm
You can also knock people out of Gsanc, by dispelling them. Which technically shouldn't be possible, but it is.
Why not?
Went to look up why it shouldn't be possible and seems that it should be. Oops.
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Droolguy » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:53 pm

I apologize, Arelith has so many house rules it is hard to keep track.

I will say that a large amount of the previous responses to the thread don't exactly make sense in light of that information though.

If it has a cooldown, why were people talking about stacking it?

That used to be a common exploit, cast twice, spell dump, watch for the switchover, cancel spell casts, cast timestop again, spell dump, watch for the switchover, ad infinitum.

Sorry for my misunderstanding, but it really did sound like people complaining about the old timestop.

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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Ork » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:50 am

I think they're alluding to the overuse of timestop scrolls in group PvP. The cooldown is individual, but having several allies read off timestop is downright a waste of gold.

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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Disciprine Come From Within » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:51 am

But then that's their decision. Timestop isn't cheap to get scrolls of so all that means is that much money was spent for it. The way I read this is like people complaining that people have Greater Restoration, or Word of Faith, or wands of see invisibility/ultravision/freedom of movement/restoration. There are things you're going to want to have because there is a strong value in having them and taking them away because you don't like the fact that so many people have that option and spent their gold/social time to get those items. The thing that bothers me about this is the fact that the spell has a very particular use as it is and the desire to remove that just turns another level 9 spell into a waste of time to bother having. And in a game that already has enough generally useless spells, that's the last thing I want to see.

Options are a good thing to have. If the issue is with scroll usage then the issue really starts with the fact that UMD skill dumping is a thing and maybe there needs to be more valuable reasons to have more levels in those classes/make it more attractive rather than have a 3 level dump for so many characters (mine included) that focus on essential skills that improve options dramatically.

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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:30 am

Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:51 am
...Options are a good thing to have. If the issue is with scroll usage then the issue really starts with the fact that UMD skill dumping is a thing and maybe there needs to be more valuable reasons to have more levels in those classes/make it more attractive rather than have a 3 level dump for so many characters (mine included) that focus on essential skills that improve options dramatically.
I agree with everything, but wanted to draw attention to this. Even though I have designs on a character with a 'rogue dip' currently, I would be all for incorporating a more invested application into UMD.

That's not how it works in PnP, but neither is holding 120 skill points to spend them all at level 30. I feel there's room for a little give and take there as a result.

However, in PnP you could technically dump all 11 skill points of three different rogue levels (human+14 int) into UMD when taking them depending on how you spaced them out. Arelith has a 3-level-consecutive leveling rule preventing this, though.
SRD wrote:Use a Scroll

If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.
SRD wrote:Emulate an Ability Score

To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.
So, according to this, using a scroll of a 9th level spell would take a UMD check of 37. (And a second check of 34 if you don't have a 19 in a casting stat, which you can auto at 33 ranks).

Sucks for my rogue dip with 12 CHA. Sucks for a lot of existing characters, probably. However, possibly/probably far more appropriate than the current 16 UMD -1 CHA unlocking the most potent magics of all kinds for everyone, as well.

Also allows for "mishaps." Come on, Devs, you know you want to... :twisted:
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:37 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:30 am
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:51 am
...Options are a good thing to have. If the issue is with scroll usage then the issue really starts with the fact that UMD skill dumping is a thing and maybe there needs to be more valuable reasons to have more levels in those classes/make it more attractive rather than have a 3 level dump for so many characters (mine included) that focus on essential skills that improve options dramatically.
I agree with everything, but wanted to draw attention to this. Even though I have designs on a character with a 'rogue dip' currently, I would be all for incorporating a more invested application into UMD.

That's not how it works in PnP, but neither is holding 120 skill points to spend them all at level 30. I feel there's room for a little give and take there as a result.

However, in PnP you could technically dump all 11 skill points of three different rogue levels (human+14 int) into UMD when taking them depending on how you spaced them out. Arelith has a 3-level-consecutive leveling rule preventing this, though.
SRD wrote:Use a Scroll

If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.
SRD wrote:Emulate an Ability Score

To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.
So, according to this, using a scroll of a 9th level spell would take a UMD check of 37. (And a second check of 34 if you don't have a 19 in a casting stat, which you can auto at 33 ranks).

Sucks for my rogue dip with 12 CHA. Sucks for a lot of existing characters, probably. However, possibly/probably far more appropriate than the current 16 UMD -1 CHA unlocking the most potent magics of all kinds for everyone, as well.

Also allows for "mishaps." Come on, Devs, you know you want to... :twisted:
I like that idea, a lot!
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Re: Timestop Suggestions

Post by flower » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:12 am

It would force majority of people to relevel, do you think people got 40 UMD?

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