Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

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Droolguy
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Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Droolguy » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:59 am

Ok, so something that has been bothering me for a very long time is the xp trickle when playing adventure mode, it has finally bothered me to the point that I feel the need to make a post about it.

The XP trickle rate is ridiculously low and I am not sure any actual thought to the time component was ever done.

At the standard rate of 20xp per tick, it takes exactly...

lvl - xp req -- min ---hours ---------- days -------------real days total investment
4----4,000------800---13.33333333--0.555555556--0.555555556
5----5,000-----1000--16.66666667--0.694444444--1.25
6----6000------1200--20-----------------0.833333333--2.083333333
7----7000------1400--23.33333333--0.972222222--3.055555556
8----8,000-----1600--26.66666667--1.111111111--4.166666667
9----9,000-----1800--30-----------------1.25---------------5.416666667
10--10,000---2000---33.33333333--1.388888889--6.805555556
11--11,000---2200---36.66666667--1.527777778--8.333333333
12--12,000---2400---40 -----------------1.666666667--10
13--13,000---2600---43.33333333--1.805555556--11.80555556
14--14,000---2800---46.66666667--1.944444444--13.75
15--15,000---3000---50 -----------------2.083333333--15.83333333
16--16,000---3200---53.33333333---2.222222222--18.05555556
17--17,000---3400---56.66666667---2.361111111--20.41666667
18--18,000---3600---60 ------------------2.5----------------22.91666667
19--19,000---3800---63.33333333---2.638888889--25.55555556
20--20,000---4000---66.66666667---2.777777778--28.33333333

Now since some of you will be like "so it takes less than a month", no, that is total gameplay time.

Meaning that if you work 8 hours a day, and sleep 8 hours a day, and play on the server 8 hours a day (An extremely unhealthy schedule, but technically possible) it would take a quarter of a year just to get to level 20 if you fully use your adventure xp and that is 10 levels under the cap.

The average player spending 2-4 hours on the server is only going to see between 400-800xp per day they play from trickle xp, meaning that one quest (including the kill xp) is going to yield more adventure XP than they can use for several days.

I can't be the only person who has noticed after playing an adventure mode character (supposedly the most RP friendly, since you can still get your stored XP while RPing) that the only thing it does is nerf your xp gain rate with NO advantage at all (since non-adventure mode characters already cap out their usable trickle rate just with quests available to everyone).

The only way adventure mode could possibly be balanced against standard is if it gave significant increases to passive XP trickle rate along the lines of 2.5%-5% of the TOTAL ACCUMULATED POOL per tick. This would allow players to "store" two to four hours of xp for roleplaying for every one hour they actually kill stuff. Since it's scaling (being a percentage) XP could even be entirely fed through trickle at that point and there wouldn't be an need for direct kill xp.

Anyway, thats my rant. Need to walk the dog.

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WanderingPoet
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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by WanderingPoet » Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:30 am

Well...

When I suggested -adventure mode, it was pre writs. The only way to get adventure xp was to enter new areas, kill new foes types, and to get portals. I don't think it was possible to get more than 20k. The idea behind -adventure mode was that if you went out grinding (pre writ, there was only grinding), lets say you got yourself 2000 xp - well, with -adventure mode you would get 2000 adventure xp and 1000 normal xp, giving you 3000 xp in with the same amount of grinding, you just had to wait longer to get it. This works perfectly for people that want to get back to a city for RP and want to stop grinding/adventuring.

Issue is that then writs give you thousands and thousands and thousands. It's typical for someone to have 50-100k by level 20. On top of this scroll/wand/potion making all gives you adventure xp too. Essentially, -adventure mode doesn't really provide much bonus xp in light of writs, unless you really are slow at doing writs while having plenty of playtime. People do actually run out of adventure xp at epic levels, so it does serve a purpose!

Personally, I'd like to see writs stop giving adventure xp. I feel they ruin the adventure xp system by giving just massive amounts. Bump up the base xp they give by a few hundred and then have them give no adventure xp. I'd also like to see the writs varying xp based off your level in relation - so annoying when you are doing a really hard writ and then getting as little xp as a super easy one! It really discourages actually doing the harder writs if you're more likely to die and get nothing.
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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:45 am

Another 'welll' is that a higher RPR gives you more exp from your Adventure pool per tick. Why there's a distinguish in the rate, I do not know, but essentially it means that you can strive for a higher RPR to get more exp, faster.

... Which is not a realistic goal, I get that. Oh wells, what can we do? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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Baron Saturday
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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Baron Saturday » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:19 am

I've argued before that AXP gain being tied to RPR puts too much weight on RPR. I'd love to see AXP gained at a static rate, probably something in the middle, say 40-50/tick.
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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:31 am

I'm only rpr 2, and am running out of adventure XP. It seems like it doesn't deplete fast and you'll never run out, but, once you hit 2 rpr it'll go down a lot faster. So just keep RPing and you'll get bumped, 2 rpr is pretty easy to get if you're constantly involved in RP.

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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Liareth » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:39 am

FWIW, I don't think you should be playing an "adventure mode character". For optimal exp gain you should be toggling on adventure mode when your adventure exp pool is empty or nearly empty. With the inflation in adventure exp gain we've seen from additional sources such as writs, the adventure mode system - which was a bit confusing and nearly redundant when it was implemented - is certainly redundant now, because the adventure exp pool is never empty. I agree that something needs to be done about it.

I don't think the solution to this problem is to increase the rate of adventure exp dispersal. Over the last couple of years we've seen several major changes that have vastly reduced the time it takes to level a new character to cap. Fast leveling is convenient, but IMO it's very important to strike a good balance so that new characters get to experience well-paced (not too quick, not too slow) mechanical development as they grow.

Regarding this:
I am not sure any actual thought to the time component was ever done.
It certainly was. 10 RPR is not the standard rate that we balanced around. 20 RPR is - which is 40 exp per tick. Moreover, the system was not designed to be the sole source of experience gain for a character. The system complements the existing sources of exp gain to accelerate leveling in a way that benefits players who prioritise RP and tackling new content over grinding the same old dungeons. In other words, grinding harder won't make the adventure exp come in quicker. The pool builds and returns to you at a slow rate while you spend time on non-grinding activities. Frankly, if you're trying to level solely through adventure exp, and expecting quick results, you're doing it wrong.

One way to tackle this problem is to introduce other ways to use adventure exp. Here's a couple of ideas:

- You can use your adventure exp pool to relevel your character. If you save up 20k, you spend it to receive 20k worth of relevels. This way, capped characters who want to tweak their build could sit in adventure mode indefinitely, accumulating exp which they could then use to fix the dumb mistake they made at level 15 without going through the awkward 'oh a sorcerer drained all of my power and I'm weak again' phase.
- You can receive a chunk of your adventure mode exp immediately at a significant % loss. For example, if the loss was 80%, and you had 100k adventure mode exp banked, you could choose to convert that into 20k exp immediately instead of receiving 100k over time. I'm not convinced this level of control is a good idea. Maybe it would be best to make this an automatic process - after you reach a cap in your pool, the rest is given back to you immediately at 80% loss. This might feel bad though, so ... needs more thought and discussion.
- You can transfer adventure mode exp to another character that you own at a % loss.
- A toggle to disable adventure exp dispersal, so you can save up to spend on the above.

Alternatively, an easy solution to this particular problem is to delete adventure mode. In fact, even if additional ways to consume your adventure exp pool are introduced, it would probably make sense to delete the toggle anyway and replace it with a rested exp system that deposits the bonus gains into your adventure exp pool.

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Wordless Truth
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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Wordless Truth » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:45 am

I really don't think that exp gain should be upped further. If anything it's too easy to level, these days.

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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Hinty » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:33 am

Don't forget that that table seems to be based solely on levelling via the adventure mode EXP.

In order to get the adventure mode EXP that trickles in you have to be doing things that earn you that EXP in the first place, so you can cut those times down by a third each to mark that. And that's if you only do the bare essential stuff to get enough EXP in your pool to level you.

Droolguy
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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Droolguy » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:47 pm

The table is calculated WITH the 1/3 instant XP factored in that you need to get the AXP in the first place.

If you want the timelines purely for AXP, multiply everything by 1.5.

I used 20xp a tick because after asking a ton of people, that is far and away the standard rate that the majority of the server receives. If it was balanced around 40xp a tick then maybe the DMs need to revise how often they bump players to the 40xp rate. Balance implies that it conforms to the majority, not the minority.
Liareth wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:39 am
FWIW, I don't think you should be playing an "adventure mode character". For optimal exp gain you should be toggling on adventure mode when your adventure exp pool is empty or nearly empty. With the inflation in adventure exp gain we've seen from additional sources such as writs, the adventure mode system - which was a bit confusing and nearly redundant when it was implemented - is certainly redundant now, because the adventure exp pool is never empty. I agree that something needs to be done about it.
This statement comes from a factually wrong standpoint, as you never need to turn on adventure mode, ever, if you are completing writs at all, it takes between 2 and 5 days of in game, real time, doing absolutely nothing (I ran the numbers) to deplete the AXP gained from writs alone, PER WRIT. Meaning that you will *never* need to turn on adventure mode.
I don't think the solution to this problem is to increase the rate of adventure exp dispersal. Over the last couple of years we've seen several major changes that have vastly reduced the time it takes to level a new character to cap. Fast leveling is convenient, but IMO it's very important to strike a good balance so that new characters get to experience well-paced (not too quick, not too slow) mechanical development as they grow.
Once again, the facts (or math, however you want to word it) work against this statement. Overall a character will see a significant drop in how quickly they level somewhere between 45 and 49.99999999% depending on what level they are. I can prove this mathematically as well. Even if they we're to play in a mathematically perfect way, which is largely impossible for a player to do.
Regarding this:
I am not sure any actual thought to the time component was ever done.
It certainly was. 10 RPR is not the standard rate that we balanced around. 20 RPR is - which is 40 exp per tick. Moreover, the system was not designed to be the sole source of experience gain for a character. The system complements the existing sources of exp gain to accelerate leveling in a way that benefits players who prioritise RP and tackling new content over grinding the same old dungeons. In other words, grinding harder won't make the adventure exp come in quicker. The pool builds and returns to you at a slow rate while you spend time on non-grinding activities. Frankly, if you're trying to level solely through adventure exp, and expecting quick results, you're doing it wrong.
The previous response applies to this statement as well, AXP is paid out at such a slow rate, that you can roleplay all you want, literally ignoring all other game mechanics, for weeks/months/years (Yes, years is the actual timeline for a player playing 2 hours every single day of the week trying to roleplay in their epic levels). The 50% bonus experience is functionally useless, because it is never used.
One way to tackle this problem is to introduce other ways to use adventure exp. Here's a couple of ideas:

- You can use your adventure exp pool to relevel your character. If you save up 20k, you spend it to receive 20k worth of relevels. This way, capped characters who want to tweak their build could sit in adventure mode indefinitely, accumulating exp which they could then use to fix the dumb mistake they made at level 15 without going through the awkward 'oh a sorcerer drained all of my power and I'm weak again' phase.
- You can receive a chunk of your adventure mode exp immediately at a significant % loss. For example, if the loss was 80%, and you had 100k adventure mode exp banked, you could choose to convert that into 20k exp immediately instead of receiving 100k over time. I'm not convinced this level of control is a good idea. Maybe it would be best to make this an automatic process - after you reach a cap in your pool, the rest is given back to you immediately at 80% loss. This might feel bad though, so ... needs more thought and discussion.
- You can transfer adventure mode exp to another character that you own at a % loss.
- A toggle to disable adventure exp dispersal, so you can save up to spend on the above.

Alternatively, an easy solution to this particular problem is to delete adventure mode. In fact, even if additional ways to consume your adventure exp pool are introduced, it would probably make sense to delete the toggle anyway and replace it with a rested exp system that deposits the bonus gains into your adventure exp pool.
This, so much this. It's rare that people actually suggest solutions, I am quite used to people taking a hard line stances.

Actually, reading those solutions I have another one for you, stick everyone in adventure mode.

This is a roleplay server and that is driven primarily off of player to player interactions, what if AXP was a method of one player rewarding another for improving their roleplay experience?

You have RPR, which is driven by how the DMs view your roleplay. But there are not very many DMs to go around and the system doesn't account for random acts of good roleplay, or the grinders who play characters that don't really stand out but are in character providing to the overall feel of the world.

Make a trinket that allows characters to give XP in small amounts to other players around them for essentially making the server a fun place to play. This would also strongly encourage people to group up, and discourage people from going it solo (not contributing to server roleplay).

Each time you use it everyone around you gets a RPR tick, which is then removed from *your* AXP pool, not theirs. Or there could be a simple toggle that automatically pulses out XP ticks to your area when your enjoying yourself (By simply activating the "I'm having fun" toggle).

It could even be tracked in metadata, giving the DM and Admin team a clear way to see which people on the server were contributing to the overall roleplay experience from the perspective of the players.

TheShadowdove
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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by TheShadowdove » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:01 pm

Should just have it based upon characters total hours logged in.

If someone plays a character for a total of 600hrs the Character could reasonably be X level.

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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:19 am

Liareth wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:39 am
- You can use your adventure exp pool to relevel your character. If you save up 20k, you spend it to receive 20k worth of relevels. This way, capped characters who want to tweak their build could sit in adventure mode indefinitely, accumulating exp which they could then use to fix the dumb mistake they made at level 15 without going through the awkward 'oh a sorcerer drained all of my power and I'm weak again' phase.
I would -love- this to be a thing on Arelith. The re-leveling is hell.

It would also give max level characters a reason to keep 'training' towards something other than RNGesus blessing them with the possibility of rune mats one day.
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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:09 am

There's some interesting ideas here, and it is good to see a 'here's how we fix this' coming up rather than 'this is bad.' As Droolguy said.

With that being said, I'm going to point out some problems with some of the suggestions. This does NOT mean that the suggestions are bad, or that I'm against them. In fact I quite like them. But the issues should be brought to light so that they can be considered.

- You can use your adventure exp pool to relevel your character. If you save up 20k, you spend it to receive 20k worth of relevels. This way, capped characters who want to tweak their build could sit in adventure mode indefinitely, accumulating exp which they could then use to fix the dumb mistake they made at level 15 without going through the awkward 'oh a sorcerer drained all of my power and I'm weak again' phase.

This is neat- but on the other hand it might create a ridiculously elongaged character life. Whilst character releveling isn't always a bad thing, at the same time it is also important to encourage consistancy and turnover of characters. I'd be a little worried that this would enable/encourage people to do the cheesy 'Hi, I'm Bob the fighter/Paladin, who was once a Fighter/Sorc, who was once Fighter/Bard and leader of Cordor then became Fighter/Mage leader of arcane Tower then became Fighter/Assassin for a bit for the lols then became Fighter/Blackguard for Andunor! But I'm still Bob!'
True some of these builds would be ridiculous, but I think the concern holds a lilttle validity.
- You can transfer adventure mode exp to another character that you own at a % loss.
So I do like this idea in a way, I know I'd use it a lot! I love the idea of using all that xp that gets banked when I play a level 30 character for a while. But. Unless there was a definate cap on this, it would probably result in a lot of high level characters popping up 'from nowhere' Which I think could offer some difficulties. It would remove any stage of 'vulnerability' from a character build, and I can see it creating some friction. Also again there's a slight issue of character turnover. The Character Deletion Reward system (5% system) was made to encourage turnover. Unless the above suggestion was tightly restricted in some way, people could just play their 30's for ages, transfer their xp to a 'dump character' - delete the 'dump character' to get the reward, until they get the 5% award they want.
Make a trinket that allows characters to give XP in small amounts to other players around them for essentially making the server a fun place to play. This would also strongly encourage people to group up, and discourage people from going it solo (not contributing to server roleplay).
In the ideal world this is an absolutly brilliant idea, and in principle I love it.
But alas I have become a cynical old kitty, and I am concerned that we'd also see a lot of OOC cliqueism. People dropping xp on their buddies not due to Good Roleplay, but just because they'll help beat up group A, or some such.
(People can and do accuse our RPR system of similar, but to be fair it takes Two Dms to vote someone up to rpr 30, and we are overseen by a Head DM AND the Devs above him, as well as being chosen via interview process. Is it a perfect system? No, but it does have some oversite)
Agian, this isn't to say that I don't think it's a good idea. I do like it. But my main thoughts is it would require a) A bit of Dm oversite, and b) It should be fairly limited in various ways. (Maybe you can only gift xp once a day? Maybe only up to a certain amount? Maybe you can't give it to one pc more than once? Ect. Ect.)
This too shall pass.

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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by PeterRasta » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:29 am

Wordless Truth wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:45 am
I really don't think that exp gain should be upped further. If anything it's too easy to level, these days.
I think that's a valid opinion aswell, one I happen to agree with.
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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:57 pm

PeterRasta wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:29 am
Wordless Truth wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:45 am
I really don't think that exp gain should be upped further. If anything it's too easy to level, these days.
I think that's a valid opinion aswell, one I happen to agree with.
Ditto.
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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Droolguy » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:01 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:09 am
Make a trinket that allows characters to give XP in small amounts to other players around them for essentially making the server a fun place to play. This would also strongly encourage people to group up, and discourage people from going it solo (not contributing to server roleplay).
In the ideal world this is an absolutly brilliant idea, and in principle I love it.
But alas I have become a cynical old kitty, and I am concerned that we'd also see a lot of OOC cliqueism. People dropping xp on their buddies not due to Good Roleplay, but just because they'll help beat up group A, or some such.
(People can and do accuse our RPR system of similar, but to be fair it takes Two Dms to vote someone up to rpr 30, and we are overseen by a Head DM AND the Devs above him, as well as being chosen via interview process. Is it a perfect system? No, but it does have some oversite)
Agian, this isn't to say that I don't think it's a good idea. I do like it. But my main thoughts is it would require a) A bit of Dm oversite, and b) It should be fairly limited in various ways. (Maybe you can only gift xp once a day? Maybe only up to a certain amount? Maybe you can't give it to one pc more than once? Ect. Ect.)
I think this applies here "Analysis paralysis or paralysis by analysis is the state of over-analyzing (or over-thinking) a situation so that a decision or action is never taken, in effect paralyzing the outcome. A decision can be treated as over-complicated, with too many detailed options, so that a choice is never made, rather than try something and change if a major problem arises. A person might be seeking the optimal or "perfect" solution upfront, and fear making any decision which could lead to erroneous results, while on the way to a better solution.

There are several options to allow players to give other players RP bonus XP and not have it realistically abused.

The easiest being to cap the rate that a single character can give another character XP based on the level of the receiver or the giver, whichever is lower, then apply that number to the timeframe and size of control group that the dev team is comfortable with.

If the devs provided...
1. How long do they want it to take a character to level 1-30.
2. How many people they would like to see in a group roleplaying.
3. How long do they want every player to play the server per IRL week.

I can do the math and provide the per-receiving-characters level xp tick for the player-to-player xp trickle, or I can write an excel that does it for them.
Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:57 pm
PeterRasta wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:29 am
Wordless Truth wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:45 am
I really don't think that exp gain should be upped further. If anything it's too easy to level, these days.
I think that's a valid opinion aswell, one I happen to agree with.
Ditto.
Once again, adventure mode experience does not compete in any form with standard mode, changing it would not increase the rate at which a powergamer levels. Currently adventure mode players suffer a significant handicap to leveling speed with no advantage what so ever, despite the system being designed so that roleplayers could defer their XP over time so that they are still progressing while roleplaying. In effect this does not happen though and roleplayers using the adventure system see the same xp rate gain as standard mode, while suffering a total xp gain reduction over time (with RPR ticks included) of in excess of 45%.

The math tells us this is true, regardless of what peoples analogies or "feelings" say.

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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Griefmaker » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:22 pm

I am in the boat of preferring leveling being less painful, so am fine with the speed of things now. I am also one who believes RPR should mean something, because without a carrot to incentivize doing something, most will not (I am lazy myself and will take the path of least resistance as well if there is no reason to not do so. Human nature is indeed a thing!).

I just wish that adventure xp could be gained in other ways too. I love the system, since I am one who enjoys a nice romp, get a good hunk of adventure xp banked, and then not feel like I am completely stunting my character's mechanical growth by RPing a LOT instead of going out and fighting again...and again.

Like the old days 10+ years ago, which were a slog. *heads off with group to kill orcs in Bendir for the 20th time in a row in the hopes of getting halfway to level 6 from level 5* (facetious, admittedly, but the spirit of the jest is correct).

Then again, I like to make dungoneering into an adventure too, but find that 90% would prefer to hurry with the grind, which is understandable as well. After a while fighting the same things does get a bit old.

But I would love to see adventure xp offered for things like picking locks, disabling traps, setting traps, using -balance, using -track, animal empathy, being disguised and having it not be broken, breaking a disguise, a tiny bit for crafting and using crafting points (besides the initial one time gain), and things like that.

Obviously, there would have to be timers on these things, otherwise people would spam then constantly, but gaining adventure xp for other "adventuring" activities would be awesome.

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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Kalopsia » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:29 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:09 am
- You can use your adventure exp pool to relevel your character. If you save up 20k, you spend it to receive 20k worth of relevels. This way, capped characters who want to tweak their build could sit in adventure mode indefinitely, accumulating exp which they could then use to fix the dumb mistake they made at level 15 without going through the awkward 'oh a sorcerer drained all of my power and I'm weak again' phase.

This is neat- but on the other hand it might create a ridiculously elongaged character life. Whilst character releveling isn't always a bad thing, at the same time it is also important to encourage consistancy and turnover of characters. I'd be a little worried that this would enable/encourage people to do the cheesy 'Hi, I'm Bob the fighter/Paladin, who was once a Fighter/Sorc, who was once Fighter/Bard and leader of Cordor then became Fighter/Mage leader of arcane Tower then became Fighter/Assassin for a bit for the lols then became Fighter/Blackguard for Andunor! But I'm still Bob!'
True some of these builds would be ridiculous, but I think the concern holds a lilttle validity.

While reading this, I had an idea that might help to prevent potential issues like the one you described: What if releveling with this method was restricted to the three classes the character originally had?

A Fighter 20 / Weapon Master 7 / Rogue 3 could then relevel to something like Fighter 10 / WM 16 / Rogue 4, but replacing Rogue with Bard would not be possible.

Changing classes would require a DM-granted token that is consumed in the process. The DMs could then have a look at the new classes and ensure the build is justified by RP.

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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Twily » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:12 pm

I am in the boat of preferring leveling being less painful, so am fine with the speed of things now. I am also one who believes RPR should mean something, because without a carrot to incentivize doing something, most will not.
I agree with this statement a lot
There's players on Arelith who prefer things like run-grinding and PvPing at every chance possible. There's usually nothing wrong with preferring these activities, but RPR reflects the interest. If a player has a super power build, forces PvP whenever possible regardless of level, and uses the cheesiest tactics to kill/bash someone whenever PvP arises, that's going to reflect on their RPR regardless of whether rules were or were not broken.
The same goes for grinders; if someone solo run grinds 24/7 every time they're online that's going to reflect on their RPR.
If adventure XP were untied from RPR, then the players who have lower RPRs than 20 (which is most likely new players, mass PvPers, and hardcore grinders) would be rewarded for roleplaying as much as someone who is a part of a faction and spends the majority of their time online participating in that faction.

Getting a 20 RPR is also surprisingly easy for those who roleplay regularly. I've acquired a 20 RPR 5 times since I came to the server, and it never toke more than a month to go from 0 to 20(aside from the first time, when I was new and had never roleplayed a single time before), so having the XP balanced around a 20 RPR seems fair to me.

As far as the AdventureXP gain rate goes... RPR/Adventure XP combined with a 20 RPR adds up quicker than most realize.
Lets say 1 complete run through a dungeon gives you 3000 XP and takes 1 hour(this is a little above the average from what I've seen).
Lets say you do a writ as well, so that's an additional 1500 instant xp.
And lets say you do that dungeon once per day; that's 4500 xp per day with writs(but you can only do these for a bit under half of the XP required to get to L30- we'll say half just to be generous)

That makes for 47.7(while you have writs) + 71.6(without writs) = 119 runs through the dungeon to hit L30.
This however doesn't include getting better gear, commissioning/finding/buying adamantine things, the time to walk to/from dungeon, etc.
If we say it takes 10 minutes to walk to/from the dungeon, 5 each way(which is quite generous), that already adds up to 1190 minutes or 19.8 hours of going to/from dungeons from L3 to L30.
If we add on the acquisition of gear as you progress, we'll say 6 hours over the entire character's life time(this is insanely generous).
This puts us at 119+19.8+6=144.8 hours with 1hour per day to get to L30
If we say you have a 20 RPR, that makes 60 xp per 6min, or 600 per hour if adventure xp is maintained.
600 per hour, over the span of 145 hours = 86,000 xp. That's 20% of the XP required to get to L30, suddenly that free 60xp per 6min is looking a lot better.

These are all rough estimates, and there are varying factors(at times being able to do 2 writs per dungeon as one example) but at the same time I've been highly generous with these numbers to the extent it's quite safe to assume it takes more playtime than outlined above since I also left many things out(finding parties, repairing gear, etc).
This means in the time it takes for a hardcore grinder(someone who is likely to have a low RPR) to grind their way up to L30, someone who spends their time roleplaying non-stop for that entire duration would still be 20-30% of the way there.

RPR+AdventureXP is meant to supplement normal leveling for people who don't spend all their time grinding by continuing to provide some extra XP during both downtime and while in dungeons, while making it so they are less punished for spending more of their time roleplaying and less grinding; rather than a full alternative to traditional leveling.
This means that 20-30% would also be stacked with XP from occasional dungeon run, leaving them quite easily in the 50%+ to L30 range despite not a single bit of grinding.

RPR+Adventure XP works very well to supplement it in this way, a player can spend all of their time roleplaying(including roleplay trips in dungeons), yet can still progress at a reasonable pace, even if it is still slower than non-stop grinding.

The acquisition of adventure XP does quickly become moot though, once you already have enough required to hit L30; I do see a lot of potential with AXP though.
It could easily serve as a way to have some form of progression even after hitting L30(obviously it'd have to be something that's more of a nice cookie rather than actual power boosts).
Last edited by Twily on Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:34 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:26 pm

Kalopsia wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:29 pm
DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:09 am
- You can use your adventure exp pool to relevel your character. If you save up 20k, you spend it to receive 20k worth of relevels. This way, capped characters who want to tweak their build could sit in adventure mode indefinitely, accumulating exp which they could then use to fix the dumb mistake they made at level 15 without going through the awkward 'oh a sorcerer drained all of my power and I'm weak again' phase.

This is neat- but on the other hand it might create a ridiculously elongaged character life. Whilst character releveling isn't always a bad thing, at the same time it is also important to encourage consistancy and turnover of characters. I'd be a little worried that this would enable/encourage people to do the cheesy 'Hi, I'm Bob the fighter/Paladin, who was once a Fighter/Sorc, who was once Fighter/Bard and leader of Cordor then became Fighter/Mage leader of arcane Tower then became Fighter/Assassin for a bit for the lols then became Fighter/Blackguard for Andunor! But I'm still Bob!'
True some of these builds would be ridiculous, but I think the concern holds a lilttle validity.

While reading this, I had an idea that might help to prevent potential issues like the one you described: What if releveling with this method was restricted to the three classes the character originally had?

A Fighter 20 / Weapon Master 7 / Rogue 3 could then relevel to something like Fighter 10 / WM 16 / Rogue 4, but replacing Rogue with Bard would not be possible.

Changing classes would require a DM-granted token that is consumed in the process. The DMs could then have a look at the new classes and ensure the build is justified by RP.
Not a bad idea, but it would also hit people who were just regular relelveling (e.g. 'whoops took a point of fighter too early' or some such.

I just had another idea to stop this though - maybe cap the amount of xp you can 'save?' Keep it something ridiculously high - e.g. 1000000? (I think that's enough to level a character up to30 more than twice over.) But once your character has hit tha tottal adventure xp cap, they can't earn any more? That'd work.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Droolguy » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:24 pm

Twily wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:12 pm
A long post that I won't copy paste.
I feel like you literally guessed at every think you just said, and then did some math on the numbers that you made up. (What math I did check came out close, I got 141 hours for 20% using your assumptions, but you might have rounded)

I'm sorry but this doesn't contribute anything to the discussion if you make a whole bunch of assumptions about how a person might play, and how much experience they might get, with no actual facts.

The table I posted at the top is 100% grounded in reality, if you want to see the different timelines for how long in reality it takes to use AXP through RPR trickle it's really easy by just figuring for 1/2 (40xp ticks) and 1/3 (60xp ticks).

Even at 1/3, the timelines (while shorter) are still extremely long.

You also failed to account for the fact that adventure mode PC's loose 50% of all of their XP gains from grinding up front, making them level effectively half as fast compared to standard PCs off of kills (grind) xp.

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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Twily » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:36 pm

Droolguy wrote:I feel like you literally guessed at every think you just said, and then did some math on the numbers that you made up. (What math I did check came out close, I got 141 hours for 20% using your assumptions, but you might have rounded)

I'm sorry but this doesn't contribute anything to the discussion if you make a whole bunch of assumptions about how a person might play, and how much experience they might get, with no actual facts.
I've been on the server for well over five years*, have several thousand hours of playtime, and have totaled easily over 3 million xp in my time here.
My numbers may be estimates, but they're based on a lot of experience.
*Note, although my forum tag says I made the account four years ago, that is because this forum was made four years ago. I also had an account under the old forums.
The main point is: The speed you go through the AdventureXP pool doesn't matter as much as how fast leveling occurs.

RPR is an award for people who have a more detailed character, one who focuses on bringing other players together, one who helps create and drive other people's stories, etc.
People who spend their time doing this instead of grinding inevitably have higher RPRs, which give more XP and helps offset the XP they're missing as a result of not grinding.
It is a way for people who roleplay to not be heavily punished as a result of such.
The way AXP is distributed follows this same trend, it helps further close the XP gap between a grinder and a serious roleplayer.
This is a large part as to why RPR and the AXP distribution is as it is.


This is why I did my calculations as I did.
The calculations largely prove that the XP gained from RPR/AXP is not insignificant, compared to the XP gained from grinding. (Sure, grinding gets more, but in comparison to the level speed of a hardcore grinder, RPR/AXP combined still result in a modest progression when coupled with the occasional dungeons that roleplayer's inevitably do)


If the problem is RPRs not being raised/lowered frequently enough, that I would entirely agree with, but is a separate topic.

If the problem is that the AXP pool has too much XP in it, I'd agree with that, but not because there's too little XP given to the character.
I won't deny that people can quickly accumulate more AXP than they can easily or ever reasonably actually get, but this usually comes from doing writs often, so these players aren't losing anything(they're still getting their instant 100% xp per kill).
They aren't gaining everything they have saved up though; but this is by design to keep the leveling speed at an what the devs feel is an ideal rate.
Other uses for AXP definitely couldn't hurt, as I said in my post people do get more AXP than they can use, other methods of consuming the XP would be nice.




As far as why I didn't factor in using adventure_mode, that is because writs give enough XP to easily keep the adventure XP pool filled sufficiently.
If someones RPR is high enough that they go through their adventure pool quickly, then they actually do benefit from adventure_mode as they gain a 50% bonus to the XP per kill from this (they just get 33% right away, and 66% of that XP later instead), thereby increasing their overall leveling speed(they get less in that exact moment, but at the end of the day they've made 50% more per kill).
Last edited by Twily on Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:26 am, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:05 am

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:26 pm
Kalopsia wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:29 pm
DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:09 am



This is neat- but on the other hand it might create a ridiculously elongaged character life. Whilst character releveling isn't always a bad thing, at the same time it is also important to encourage consistancy and turnover of characters. I'd be a little worried that this would enable/encourage people to do the cheesy 'Hi, I'm Bob the fighter/Paladin, who was once a Fighter/Sorc, who was once Fighter/Bard and leader of Cordor then became Fighter/Mage leader of arcane Tower then became Fighter/Assassin for a bit for the lols then became Fighter/Blackguard for Andunor! But I'm still Bob!'
True some of these builds would be ridiculous, but I think the concern holds a lilttle validity.

While reading this, I had an idea that might help to prevent potential issues like the one you described: What if releveling with this method was restricted to the three classes the character originally had?

A Fighter 20 / Weapon Master 7 / Rogue 3 could then relevel to something like Fighter 10 / WM 16 / Rogue 4, but replacing Rogue with Bard would not be possible.

Changing classes would require a DM-granted token that is consumed in the process. The DMs could then have a look at the new classes and ensure the build is justified by RP.
Not a bad idea, but it would also hit people who were just regular relelveling (e.g. 'whoops took a point of fighter too early' or some such.

I just had another idea to stop this though - maybe cap the amount of xp you can 'save?' Keep it something ridiculously high - e.g. 1000000? (I think that's enough to level a character up to30 more than twice over.) But once your character has hit tha tottal adventure xp cap, they can't earn any more? That'd work.
I think that's very fair.
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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Droolguy » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:17 am

Twily wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:36 pm
As far as why I didn't factor in using adventure_mode, that is because writs give enough XP to easily keep the adventure XP pool filled sufficiently.
If someones RPR is high enough that they go through their adventure pool quickly, then they actually do benefit from adventure_mode as they gain a 50% bonus to the XP per kill from this (they just get 33% right away, and 66% of that XP later instead), thereby increasing their overall leveling speed(they get less in that exact moment, but at the end of the day they've made 50% more per kill).
At even the highest levels of RPR, you can not mathematically exhaust your AXP in normal mode.

The sentence I have highlighted in your reply is exactly what this thread is about, the fact that adventure mode has no purpose since a player will never be able to use the extra 50% XP in any realistic timeline, and so it is therefore useless. The bonus experience could be 10,000%, but because the rate of trickle is fixed it wouldn't matter in the least.

If adventure_mode doesn't actually contribute towards making it easier to roleplay and still trickle enough XP to be statistically significant, then it needs to be either removed, or the way AXP is handled needs to be changed.

That is what people have been talking about, changing the way AXP is handled to make the system as a whole functionally better.

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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by Griefmaker » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:04 am

Droolguy wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:17 am
Twily wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:36 pm
As far as why I didn't factor in using adventure_mode, that is because writs give enough XP to easily keep the adventure XP pool filled sufficiently.
If someones RPR is high enough that they go through their adventure pool quickly, then they actually do benefit from adventure_mode as they gain a 50% bonus to the XP per kill from this (they just get 33% right away, and 66% of that XP later instead), thereby increasing their overall leveling speed(they get less in that exact moment, but at the end of the day they've made 50% more per kill).
At even the highest levels of RPR, you can not mathematically exhaust your AXP in normal mode.

The sentence I have highlighted in your reply is exactly what this thread is about, the fact that adventure mode has no purpose since a player will never be able to use the extra 50% XP in any realistic timeline, and so it is therefore useless. The bonus experience could be 10,000%, but because the rate of trickle is fixed it wouldn't matter in the least.

If adventure_mode doesn't actually contribute towards making it easier to roleplay and still trickle enough XP to be statistically significant, then it needs to be either removed, or the way AXP is handled needs to be changed.

That is what people have been talking about, changing the way AXP is handled to make the system as a whole functionally better.

This is pretty wrong.

At level 20 (roughly 12 days ago) I decided to turn off adventure xp and start draining my character's 39k adventure xp bank as well as get full kill xp to get a couple of key levels. Granted, he has been RPing a LOT more and adventuring a LOT less, but now he is halfway to level 24 and is down to 3k adventure xp. Not that it is any of your business, but to counter your argument that even at the highest levels of RPR it is impossible to exhaust your RPR, I have a 30 RPR, so 60xp per tick is adventure xp.

So yes, as a practical example, AXP is useful, is valuable, and contributes to making it easier to roleplay and still trickle enough xp to be statistically significant.

On a side note...holy crap, but I really played a lot the past 12 days. I guess it was nice having to take several days off.

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Re: Passive (Adventure) XP trickle rate.

Post by PinataPlethora » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:21 am

Droolguy wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:17 am
At even the highest levels of RPR, you can not mathematically exhaust your AXP in normal mode.
I don't have the highest level of RPR, and I've exhausted my Adventure XP plenty of times.

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