Quarter locks

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:48 pm

caldura firebourne wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:16 pm
5k a month doesn't really balance that though, 5k is obtainable with about 20 minutes of grinding, it doesn't exactly offset the sheer amount of effort that goes into levelling a walking gimmick to the point of being able to attempt it
Assuming you also want max locks and some traps it would make a previously cheap quarter expensive.
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:01 pm

A few thoughts to keep in mind.

1) BegoneThoth does have a point. Whilst it is possible to make rp out of actual theft, it is difficult. Quarter break ins in general make more rp, the problem is that currently one is inextricably linked to the other.

2) Let's look at Irongron's post again:
Irongron wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:52 pm
What I currently wish to achieve, and have for some time, goes roughly like this.

1. Every quarter would have a max DC based upon the value of the quarter. it would be something like a max DC of 45 + 5 for every 10k value of the property. Given that properties over 120k are mostly castles/guildhouses, I think this would work well. It stands to reason that one cannot secure a tavern room door as effectively as a castle gate.

2. Given that quarter lockpicking/bashing works via a dialog, we would enforce a 24 rule on break-ins. Once you've successfully done so you will get an automatic failure, accompanied by a 'you must wait x hours before breaking into another player property' message. This could be increased for players with an RPR of 30 or 40.

3. Any player returning home would get a message when opening their quarter door, if it shows signs of an attempted or successful break-in. This would allow them to report it to the local guard, use -investigate on any nearby NPCS, and get an idea if their property is being targetted. This would allow for RP to come of it, perhaps even a sting to catch the player red-handed.

4. Some rare item or spell would be added that could effectively scry a property for break-ins, allowing the owner to know exactly what time it occurred, along with some visual details of the intruder.

5. A extremely rare 'skeleton key' would be added to the loot matrix, requiring x rogue levels. It would be single use, and open any locked door.

So something like this has been sitting in my to-do list for quite some time, but is not going to be straightforward and the numbers are not fixed, it will also require the attention of an experienced coder who knows their way around the thousands of scripts that govern Arelith.
Points 3 and 4 both suggest ways that the identity of the thief (or even attempted theif) could be acertained. Ways to add 'risk' to the situation. It would be hoped that if these were detailed enough - even if you weren't around when the thief was - you could pass on their name/description to others to deal with.

Point 2 would hopefully mean that such thefts would be kept at a reasonable rate.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:12 pm

If there was a way to track down a thief, and get your items back, that would certainly help. But if someone steals and then gets rid of the items, either via a fence as some players have played the role of, or even cheekier methods like a "lost and found" ig store that's 100% stolen goods at extreme prices, its neigh impossible for anything to work.

I really encourage good thief RP, which is why I feel we need a balance between thievery and stable item storage, and why we should encourage actual thief rp via pickpocket, vs just taking stuff out of a box when the owner isn't even awake irl because its 2 am there.

I believe my previous suggestion is the best solution so far. Breaking in to spy is possible for non gimmick characters, thievery is possible and preventable via spot and ic interactions, and perma safe storage can be bought at the cost of doubling your quarter rent.
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by Jayim Duinara » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:17 am

I'm new to Arelith and roleplaying, so my opinion is currently on sale, 75% off! (to reflect its worth)

I think this perceived dilemma is caused by two different concepts:

a player who is roleplaying a 'thief' character

vs

a thief who is playing a computer game

---

I really like the fact that Arelith operates under the rule of 'common sense'.

Arelith doesn't allow someone to binge murder across the island just for lulz.
If someone is sacking quarters 'to win the game', they are equally a problem.

New to roleplaying here, but if I understand correctly, roleplaying is about interaction with people. If you are a 'thief', you are breaking into that quarter TO TELL A STORY, not to get loot. So... work at telling the story. Leave the clues, calling cards, whatever. Case the joint for a few days beforehand. LET yourself be seen by people. And pick stuff that is valuable yet sellable, don't grab the one-of-a-kind sentimental item unless your plan for the story is for it to be recovered by the person ('dang, lost the loot but got away; oh well, win some lose some').

If you crack quarters simply because the system lets you, but you DON'T have any intention of telling a story, that's not roleplay. Worse, if you're doing it just so you can destroy a player's one-of-a-kind stuff, that's griefing.

Lot of work for the poor DMs, but just like we don't have PvP without direct roleplay beforehand, thieves don't break in without roleplay.

If that's kept in mind, the discussion about the mechanics of doors, locks, DCs, etc becomes more about providing tools for both sides to tell a story rather than 'who wins'. Things like investigating, disguises, wanted posters, guards, bribes, corruption, counter-theft, etc. How best to improve these tools? I leave to you guys; you are all smarter than me. =)

In conclusion, my basic belief about what stealing should be here:

1. If you aren't prepared to make a story with the quarter's owner (which, yes, requires effort on your part), you aren't allowed to break into that quarter.

2. If you're just interested in getting rich, go rob a PvE mob, it's faster and easier.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by BegoneThoth » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:44 am

The problem with your hypothesis there is that you assume there's some kind of RP that has taken place. The issue is people can rob your quarter at literally anytime, including when you're not around, and maybe a time zone or have play times that are simply exclusive to yours. With no way to actually tell who did it, unless they actually leave a note behind that somehow tells you who did it, you got absolutely no leads whatsoever, and are just down items. There's really no RP they can take place in these situations, and I have been robbed many times, it's very frustrating to just log on, be missing 100 glass, and have nothing you can do about it at all.

That's why I suggest removing quarter theft, and encouraging pickpocketing. Because then at least even if you don't have enough spot to detect the pickpocket, you can at least trace back in your head to see who bumped into you in the last few hours when you notice missing items.
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caldura firebourne
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by caldura firebourne » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:12 am

Any suggestions on how to change it so it's not a scenario of "nothing at all can be done about it?"
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by wheat wharf » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:15 am

Why not adding instead other types of content tailored to lockpicking thieves?

1 - More locked areas in dungeons: how about a treasure vault in the Duergar fortress in the Underdark that can only be opened by rogues who make a serious investment in lockpicking? This is a single example that can be expanded to other dungeons. I know this is already the case, sort of, but it can be expanded upon.

2 - A system similar to that of the Abyss and the Lost Desert with many random areas, but instead of a desert landscape, a city one with lots of streets and dark alleys for Andunor and Cordor. Not only it'll make these cities feel bigger and add some city adventuring, it can also be an opportunity to add many NPC houses that can be broken into by Thief PCs. Bonus points if Thieves' Guild writs are added specifically for rogue PCs, similar to the Sencliff pirate ones.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by BegoneThoth » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:23 am

caldura firebourne wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:12 am
Any suggestions on how to change it so it's not a scenario of "nothing at all can be done about it?"
No, because the core problem of time zones and availability will always trump any system that allows offline interaction.

It's totally unreasonable for me to expect some Euro player to stay up until four am when I get off work for 'thief rp.'

As long as we cannot guarantee availability, no amount of system or infrastructure will work. You cannot interact with someone not online, and the current 'system' outright encourages just that.
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WanderingPoet
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by WanderingPoet » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:00 am

Personally I'd prefer quarters not be pickable at all - you can already sneak in behind people after all, which forces some level of RP. If people do not safe guard their entrances/exits then you can break in while they're home, which forces a level of RP. Being robbed when you can't even interact with the person just isn't fun. Chestwise, not everyone can grind out 15k gold an hour like mentioned above, nor have hoards of end game stuff (for example, I've never found mithril dust with two high epics characters in 2 years). It isn't just items in the chest either, but fixtures that can be important (such as a scrying orb I have which was made by an old friend of my character's over a RL year ago).

Is it unfortunate that rogues lose out on some doors that they can't break into? Yes, as unfortunate that dragonshapers/barbarians/rdds can't break down doors. But story-less thievery (and often even with a story) is no fun for the victim, and rogues already get plenty of chests and such that they can open (and annoying infinite traps) in dungeons, not to mention shortcuts.

Consider it like this, how would you like to step away for 2 minutes to get a drink and a weapon master comes up and kills you, walking away with your gold? After all, the rogue invests feats/items/skill points into opening locks to rob you, the weapon master invests feats/items/skill points into killing things to rob you - we do not allow this because it is no fun to be randomly murdered, so how can it be any fun to be randomly robbed? On stories, it is possible for a player to create a story off of random (or planned) robbery which can be great for everyone involved, it is also possible for a player to create a story off of random (or planned) murder which can be great for everyone involved - this is still against the rules because it is harmful to the server to allow such, I feel it is such with robbery.

If nothing else you can always reach out and see if someone would be willing to create a story off of a robbery, many players would be - just as many players are willing to let their characters get ganked and wounded/imprisoned for the story.
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:25 am

2. Given that quarter lockpicking/bashing works via a dialog, we would enforce a 24 rule on break-ins. Once you've successfully done so you will get an automatic failure, accompanied by a 'you must wait x hours before breaking into another player property' message. This could be increased for players with an RPR of 30 or 40.
Whatever you do don't do this

RPR shouldn't mean you get to bend rules or thieve more often, it's patently ridiculous that sucha thing would have a tangible IC effect on a character's abilities.

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Re: Quarter locks

Post by Diilicious » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:01 pm

Bryce Silver-Wind wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:44 pm
Diilicious wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:37 pm
the fact that your character essentially disapears from the universe when you log out means that it should be as difficult/impossible for somebody to break into your quarter as is mechanically possible. Because you would hear them opening doors and rumaging around in your chest were your character still to be in actual existance.

Also just because 1 person can open your door doesnt mean one person will be coming in and you can very quickly be cleaned out, the point where quarters are made accessable to those whom it should not be is the point that all quarters become absolutely worthless to their owners and you make sour a very large portion of the playerbase for literally no gain.

I want my healer cleric to be able to cure all of peoples annoying obviously curable "incurable" diseases, missing limbs etc. But just because I want that doesnt make it so. Just because a rogue wants to break into your home doesnt mean they should be able to either.
Actually...quoted from a robber of old....the best time to break into someones house, is when they are at home eating dinner, as they are generally too preoccupied with their meal to notice things and often dismiss it.

Home thefts are also done quite often with the person sleeping right in the same room, so your logic doesn't really make a lot of sense.
Pretty sure thats why they are no longer a robber, that has to be the worsed time to try a break in ive ever heard. Burglaries happen in the very early hours like 4-5 am when people are deep asleep or when they are not home at all. To minimise confrontation risks.

And if there is a bump in the night you would go and check it out, and since ingame burglars can type -playerlist and see if the owner is online with no work or risk there behalf making it easy to get into somebody's property means people are just paying to get robbed
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by goblinhero » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:47 pm

Why should rogues be able to steal from other players?

Is it to simulate RL?

I'm genuinely curious - rogues can open chests in epic dungeons finding better loot than most other classes - how is that not a nice perk?

If things are lacking for rogues to steal - make epic challenging dungeons where anyone but rogues will be killed dead by traps, puzzles, guards - guess that mess. Why this requirement that you must be able to steal from other players?

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Re: Quarter locks

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:34 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:25 am
2. Given that quarter lockpicking/bashing works via a dialog, we would enforce a 24 rule on break-ins. Once you've successfully done so you will get an automatic failure, accompanied by a 'you must wait x hours before breaking into another player property' message. This could be increased for players with an RPR of 30 or 40.
Whatever you do don't do this

RPR shouldn't mean you get to bend rules or thieve more often, it's patently ridiculous that sucha thing would have a tangible IC effect on a character's abilities.
I'm not particuarly for or against the idea of increasing such a rule for rpr 30s or 40's, but I can understand the reason.

The logic for it is that those with an RPR of 30 or 40 will be more likely to break into quarters for sheer rp value, more willing to leave clues and such that they are caught, and generall will be doing it less to get neat stuff, and more for the story value.
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by Queen Titania » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:13 pm

goblinhero wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:47 pm
Why should rogues be able to steal from other players?

Is it to simulate RL?

I'm genuinely curious - rogues can open chests in epic dungeons finding better loot than most other classes - how is that not a nice perk?

If things are lacking for rogues to steal - make epic challenging dungeons where anyone but rogues will be killed dead by traps, puzzles, guards - guess that mess. Why this requirement that you must be able to steal from other players?
The intention is for narrative option expansion in the criminal area, I.E., things you can do to your fellow players. While going into dungeon to get that chest is nice, it adds very little narratively, while a mystery on who stole something of value does.
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by Emotionaloverload » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:57 pm

Actually the majority of burglaries happen during the day when the resident is most likely to be at work because that is the most logical time for non-confrontation.

That said, it would be nice to have be able to investigate chests or doors to tell if someone else that didn't have a key used them. I'm not sure if that is possible but it would add a level of reaction rp that is otherwise missing from the thievery-housing mechanic. Currently the onus for rp falls solely on the thief. If the Bad Guy (tm) breaks into a place successfully, they decide if they are leaving any kind of sign of their entry and if that sign is relevant or indicative of their person in order to further rp.

The Bad Guy (tm) doesn't need to do any of that but that doesn't mean rp didn't happen. Something was stolen. A great way to rp back at the theft was if the resident had some kind of recourse. Maybe he could hire an investigator to look for clues using -investigate. Then thieves might have to counter with being disguised while thieving or being careful about whose house they break into.

It opens up way more avenues to rp if both sides are allowed to play. Similar to fixture smashing.

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Re: Quarter locks

Post by ForgottenBhaal » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:21 pm

As having playing a characther whom attempted a career in crime, I can say this. Its is almost impossible to get into a quarter, by just standing around and waiting for people to open the door. It takes time, and dedication. And then we have the loading into area bug, that can get you shown off.
The reason I request the ability to get into quarter, is to foster criminal rp, Yes. But I understand that there will be alot of people whom abuse this, there always will be. But I say this- Can we not put some faith in people, and give another system that does not completly shut down burglary, instead of doing it as it is now, where if one has to break into a quarter, you need 2 max level char, with very special builds? Perhaps rework the rules regarding burglary, to fix the issue if the lock DC is lowered.

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Re: Quarter locks

Post by Nitro » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:57 pm

ForgottenBhaal wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:21 pm
As having playing a characther whom attempted a career in crime, I can say this. Its is almost impossible to get into a quarter, by just standing around and waiting for people to open the door. It takes time, and dedication. And then we have the loading into area bug, that can get you shown off.
The reason I request the ability to get into quarter, is to foster criminal rp, Yes. But I understand that there will be alot of people whom abuse this, there always will be. But I say this- Can we not put some faith in people, and give another system that does not completly shut down burglary, instead of doing it as it is now, where if one has to break into a quarter, you need 2 max level char, with very special builds? Perhaps rework the rules regarding burglary, to fix the issue if the lock DC is lowered.
How though? If it's one item per 24 hours and people can break in, 1 item will disappear each 24hrs like clockwork. If it's a week, one item a week will vanish into smoke (at least, not unlikely that more get stolen from other players). Unlike a chest in a dungeon, burglarly is a zero-sum game. For a burglar to get something, someone else has to lose it, and that balance will always be in favor of a burglar who can break into multiple houses and steal from multiple people. It's a change that would benefit a very small subsection of the playerbase and hurt almost everyone else.

Even if we do the proposed change of doors being easy to breach but chests being hard leaves us with the uncomfortable position that we can't decorate our quarters if we want to keep any of the fixtures safe. Thief needs an enchantment basin? Oh no problem, just bust a door and grab one.

Rather than player housing being easy enough to be breached regularly, why not add a bunch more NPC houses/mansions/villas throughout the modules of various difficulty levels for burglars to get their burgle on? That way everyone else doesn't have to suffer from something they literally have no means of avoiding except hoarding everything on their character.

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Re: Quarter locks

Post by Fionn » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:25 pm

If the scry tool et al go in to add risk to sitting on uber swag in your house, I'd advocate we do the same for stores. You'd see far less 250K Mithril Dust if it could be pilfered.
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by One Two Three Five » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:12 pm

DM Titania wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:13 pm
goblinhero wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:47 pm
Why should rogues be able to steal from other players?

Is it to simulate RL?

I'm genuinely curious - rogues can open chests in epic dungeons finding better loot than most other classes - how is that not a nice perk?

If things are lacking for rogues to steal - make epic challenging dungeons where anyone but rogues will be killed dead by traps, puzzles, guards - guess that mess. Why this requirement that you must be able to steal from other players?
The intention is for narrative option expansion in the criminal area, I.E., things you can do to your fellow players. While going into dungeon to get that chest is nice, it adds very little narratively, while a mystery on who stole something of value does.
Yeah, but like, once. Right? How many times, honestly, does anyone want to do the rp of 'oh five of my mithril ingots disappeared and there's no way to find out who did it. Guess I'll, Idunno, ask around?' Once? Twice maybe? And then the locks go up because otherwise you get cleaned out in a week.
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by BegoneThoth » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:36 pm

One Two Three Five wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:12 pm
DM Titania wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:13 pm
goblinhero wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:47 pm
Why should rogues be able to steal from other players?

Is it to simulate RL?

I'm genuinely curious - rogues can open chests in epic dungeons finding better loot than most other classes - how is that not a nice perk?

If things are lacking for rogues to steal - make epic challenging dungeons where anyone but rogues will be killed dead by traps, puzzles, guards - guess that mess. Why this requirement that you must be able to steal from other players?
The intention is for narrative option expansion in the criminal area, I.E., things you can do to your fellow players. While going into dungeon to get that chest is nice, it adds very little narratively, while a mystery on who stole something of value does.
Yeah, but like, once. Right? How many times, honestly, does anyone want to do the rp of 'oh five of my mithril ingots disappeared and there's no way to find out who did it. Guess I'll, Idunno, ask around?' Once? Twice maybe? And then the locks go up because otherwise you get cleaned out in a week.
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by caldura firebourne » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:47 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:36 pm
Did you try - investigate?
not sure if you're serious or if that's a jab at my earlier posts, because you were pretty adamant about that not working at all no matter what ever
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by BegoneThoth » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:17 pm

Yes it was a joke.
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by caldura firebourne » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:18 pm

Then I'll ask that you please don't attack my opinions especially as you're unwilling to discuss it in PMs
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by WanderingPoet » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:05 pm

ForgottenBhaal wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:21 pm
As having playing a characther whom attempted a career in crime, I can say this. Its is almost impossible to get into a quarter, by just standing around and waiting for people to open the door. It takes time, and dedication. And then we have the loading into area bug, that can get you shown off.
The reason I request the ability to get into quarter, is to foster criminal rp, Yes. But I understand that there will be alot of people whom abuse this, there always will be. But I say this- Can we not put some faith in people, and give another system that does not completly shut down burglary, instead of doing it as it is now, where if one has to break into a quarter, you need 2 max level char, with very special builds? Perhaps rework the rules regarding burglary, to fix the issue if the lock DC is lowered.
While I understand you want a character that has a career in crime, faith in others (which I advocate!) is not enough to stop abuse by just a few players. As I said before, we can liken it to a weapon master investing their skills and time into killing things, why cannot they walk up and no-rp kill people? Because it is not fun being PvPed without RP, and pickpocketing/robbing a house is PvP. If we let thieves make off with an item once per day, shouldn't we also let people steal one item from a player's body that they killed?

Being almost impossible should be the point, it should take plenty of time and dedication, it should require you to figure out people's schedules, their habits and patterns and be ready and waiting. I will agree the loading area bug is a pain, but this is avoidable by timing how fast doors close as well, watching them enter a few times to see if they close the door behind them or leave it open. Why should it be easy to PvP others where rules don't require any interaction or hostilities beforehand? I would much rather have faith in people to not cheese a bug that shows you on area entry than I would have faith in people breaking into my quarter and filching stuff from it while I'm at work or sleeping.

Keep in mind not everyone can grind out millions of gold, a hundred pounds of addy or other rare ingredients - losing 5 ingots of mithril could represent weeks or months of time (it once took me 4 months to get a masterly damask weapon made because I couldn't find addy) and it -really- sucks if someone just walks off with it, because they can.
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Re: Quarter locks

Post by caldura firebourne » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:09 pm

I feel it's being forgotten that settlement storage is now a thing as well, tied specifically to your character as long as you're a citizen of somewhere so it's not really a case of you have no perfectly secure unrobbable storage, just have to be a bit picky about what's worth keeping in there and what's worth risking in your personal quarters storage
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