Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Nitro » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:27 pm

Unique powerful one-of-a-kind items aren't a problem themselves, they're even a cool concept that we should have more of. The problem is when the item is only available to a select part of the playerbase without any equivalent for everyone else.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Durvayas » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:39 pm

I've said it before, I've said it a million times; That unrestricted portal in the slums needs to be locked to UD only the same way the hub portal is.

It is still simplicity itself for surface PCs with hostile intent to ward up, port in, 'raid' or simply kill a specific local, and then portal lense out. It happens on a semi-regular to regular basis, and really, really, should have been UD racial locked when the hub was.

The OP isn't wrong that it sets a clear double standard for those of us who main the UD; It would NEVER fly to have a non-racially locked portal in, say, the corner of Guldorand, or Cordor, or Brog, where hostile UD PCs would have easy access to the homes, and low level characters, of these settlements, but its still a thing here, for some reason nobody who plays UD regularly can comprehend.

As for the cage fight, building a new version for surface PC use in Sibiyad would bring needed traffic to the town, as well as allow Paladins, and other ostensibly 'good' alligned PCs a place to get their rocks off slaughtering slaves for their enjoyment mechanical reward, and the enjoyment of others, in a more amenable setting to their supposed 'good guy' personas.

It is marginally more logical for these characters to be doing this in an arena in a human controlled town in an establishment run by surface NPCs, than to be dealing with betting imps, a hobgoblin ringmaster, and a yaun-ti priestess in a city half populated by drow, and populated the rest of the way by other more monstrous races.
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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by -XXX- » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:24 pm

The slums portal is hardly any more a part of Andunor than the Cordor Frontier portal is a part of Cordor.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:56 pm

Durvayas wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:39 pm
I've said it before, I've said it a million times; That unrestricted portal in the slums needs to be locked to UD only the same way the hub portal is.

It is still simplicity itself for surface PCs with hostile intent to ward up, port in, 'raid' or simply kill a specific local, and then portal lense out. It happens on a semi-regular to regular basis, and really, really, should have been UD racial locked when the hub was.

The OP isn't wrong that it sets a clear double standard for those of us who main the UD; It would NEVER fly to have a non-racially locked portal in, say, the corner of Guldorand, or Cordor, or Brog, where hostile UD PCs would have easy access to the homes, and low level characters, of these settlements, but its still a thing here, for some reason nobody who plays UD regularly can comprehend.
Pretending like there isn't an unlocked portal as close or closer than the Slums Portal at Bendir, Cordor, Guldorand, Brogdenstein and the Tower is actively disingenuous and misleading. The Underdark doesn't deserve any more special treatment on this issue than it already has in the form of two UD-locked two way portals inside the city.

On the subject of a fighting pit for the surface: I don't see the problem with evil surfacers using the Cage. The problem comes that people on the surface aren't taking issue with "Yeah I went down to the Underdark to participate in bloodsports for the enjoyment of drow for pure personal profit".

It's not like you can't take actions against someone who isn't welcome in the city when they come down. Ambush them while they buff in the slums or when they go to deposit their winnings. Offer to buff them then -dispel them in the middle of the fight.
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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Nevrus » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:42 pm

Unless someone with authority rules otherwise it seems like this entire conversation is a massive waste of time. People can go down there and do it and you can't control how other people react to it. If you want IC change, make a pvp build on the surface and murder champions to avenge monstrous slaves. It's been fun watching the flame war but the philosophy is ultimately made pointless by asymmetrical design that favors one subset of characters over another with no official or enforced stance on the behavior that isn't desired.

What IS the intention? If the admins dont care and the dms dont care then it's not going to stop. If they do care, the suggestions on this thread are good for solving it, namely making things symmetrical to defeat the point of crossing over.
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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by flower » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:14 am

Nitro wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:27 pm
Unique powerful one-of-a-kind items aren't a problem themselves, they're even a cool concept that we should have more of. The problem is when the item is only available to a select part of the playerbase without any equivalent for everyone else.
Server needs more role play dedication and not unique items.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Nitro » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:20 am

flower wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:14 am
Nitro wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:27 pm
Unique powerful one-of-a-kind items aren't a problem themselves, they're even a cool concept that we should have more of. The problem is when the item is only available to a select part of the playerbase without any equivalent for everyone else.
Server needs more role play dedication and not unique items.
The two are not mutually exclusive.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by flower » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:53 am

Nitro wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:20 am
flower wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:14 am
Nitro wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:27 pm
Unique powerful one-of-a-kind items aren't a problem themselves, they're even a cool concept that we should have more of. The problem is when the item is only available to a select part of the playerbase without any equivalent for everyone else.
Server needs more role play dedication and not unique items.
The two are not mutually exclusive.

These items should come as a result of creative role play not as award for killing an NPC. Atleast my own perspective of it. Or be top items made by specific crafter (with Dc around 50-60).

Also fill in the fact that majority of player base is bypassing intent of the area (set to no magic zone) to get the item....eh. And for everyone it comes okay?

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Durvayas » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:34 am

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:24 pm
The slums portal is hardly any more a part of Andunor than the Cordor Frontier portal is a part of Cordor.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cordor Frontier portal is located outside of Cordor proper, and external so far as city defenses go, whereas the Andunor slums portal is literally inside the city and well behind the city gates.
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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Hunter548 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:46 am

Durvayas wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:34 am
-XXX- wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:24 pm
The slums portal is hardly any more a part of Andunor than the Cordor Frontier portal is a part of Cordor.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cordor Frontier portal is located outside of Cordor proper, and external so far as city defenses go, whereas the Andunor slums portal is literally inside the city and well behind the city gates.
Are you talking about NPC defenses? How does that make any difference? Surely any situation where NPC defenses are relevant on coming through the Andunor gate are also relevant for coming from the Slums Caverns.
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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Durvayas » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:58 am

Hunter548 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:46 am
Durvayas wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:34 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cordor Frontier portal is located outside of Cordor proper, and external so far as city defenses go, whereas the Andunor slums portal is literally inside the city and well behind the city gates.
Are you talking about NPC defenses? How does that make any difference? Surely any situation where NPC defenses are relevant on coming through the Andunor gate are also relevant for coming from the Slums Caverns.
It makes all the difference on whether or not you can consider the site a part of, or outside, the city, which is what XXX was arguing. The design should make sense, and it makes no sense to have such a glaring vulnerability, that is regularly used by PCs adversarial to the city, 100% undefended within the city walls, as it is currently.

If the slums portal is to be such a gaping hole in Andunor's defenses, it needs to either be fixed, or something needs to be changed to reflect that with the NPCs that since we've literally had a 30 person raid pop into the city from that portal before.
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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Maladus » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:43 am

At the risk of derailing the discussion further, I think the main problem with the portal in the slums is that, for the most part, anyone on the surface who wants to access it can waltz right up to it and attune to it and if they are not openly preaching the dogma of [insert goodly aligned deity] will face no real consequences for doing so (unless a DM sees them nonchalantly galavanting in a place their character wouldn’t normally be). Conversely, monster races, in particular those which don’t have the luxury of looking like Elves with all their skin covered which is in and of itself a dead give away, don’t have the luxury of moving freely about the surface world.

Is it still possible? Sure, and it does happen. But the comparison between the slums portal and the frontier portal is not really even close in my book because of the distance required to travel to get to Cordor, not to mention the slums puts you right on the inside of the city. If you take the frontier portal and try to go to Cordor as a monster race not only will you get stopped and attacked by players long before you get close, but the kill scripts will demolish you.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by White_935 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:53 am

Content lockout is generally a bad idea, people, especially those where player versus player combat is somewhat related usually will want to be able to stand on a even ground.

I recommend like others have suggested an similar arena being present in cordor with a equal reward.
With a similar theme.

If the reward is removed/locked out, then it should be removed from everyone on the server period, a good playground is a fair playground.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Twily » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:28 pm

I can definitely understand the view, and while I don't disagree that fighting in the cage is evil; it could be worse.

The creatures contained in the cage are all evil creatures, so it's not like innocent beings are being forced into a chain of fights where they die and get raised over and over. It is still cruel to partake in the chain, but them being evil creatures does open room for a tiny bit more leeway then there would otherwise be; it makes room for the whole, if the ends justify the means reasoning.

So that comes to the next part, Why surfacers with good alignments partake in cage fights. I don't doubt that some of them are doing such just for the OOC enjoyment of partaking in a fun challenge in spite of their character's alignment or class, although seeing as it doesn't negatively impact anyone I personally don't see this as a problem, that's just my view though and I know there are others who disagree, and that is fine.
Although I still wouldn't object to an equivalent string of fights in Cordor's arena that are branded in a different way; not the whole kill someone who is held there against their will and gets killed/raised indefinitely

For others though, they do have what could easily be deemed valid reasons to partake in the cage fight. One of my own good aligned characters who beat the beast did it as they were a harper, and having that tenth cage fight chain gave them a form of protection if they're ever spotted when spying within Andunour. It gave justification to intimidation to encourage people to back down and let them leave, this plan actually did work for me once. I still to this day don't feel that the character having fought and killed the beast was in any way out of line with that character's good alignment and their class.(but I suppose harpers are rather known to believe in the ends justifying the means)
Although even this reasoning would be more applicable to Cordor's Arena, if they had a less cruel cage fight system with a 10th fight equal to Andunour's, and would have lead my character to gaining their tenth fight badge there instead



TL;DR/Conclusion
The long story short is that you never know what leads someone's character to jump into the cage fights. Maybe they as a player just want to have some fun and push their character's limits, or maybe they have a logical in character reason for their character to be taking on the ring and attempting to clear the 10th fight.

Reporting people likely is a valid approach if you feel someone there in error, as the DMs will look into these reasonings and decide what to do based on them.

Although I will also say that if you see a surfacer in the cage, I'm sure there's plenty of underdarkers around the city who would gladly give them a run for their money as they exit.


I definitely wouldn't oppose to an equivalent string of fights within Cordor though, this does seem like a rather clean solution that applies to every situation.
(making it so once you start on the fights in one place, you're locked out of the other- perhaps have the two arena's be aware of eachother and are enemies of sort due to the methods used, where they see the winning mark of their foe and refuse to let you in)

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:50 pm

Maladus wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:43 am
At the risk of derailing the discussion further, I think the main problem with the portal in the slums is that, for the most part, anyone on the surface who wants to access it can waltz right up to it and attune to it and if they are not openly preaching the dogma of [insert goodly aligned deity] will face no real consequences for doing so (unless a DM sees them nonchalantly galavanting in a place their character wouldn’t normally be). Conversely, monster races, in particular those which don’t have the luxury of looking like Elves with all their skin covered which is in and of itself a dead give away, don’t have the luxury of moving freely about the surface world.

Is it still possible? Sure, and it does happen. But the comparison between the slums portal and the frontier portal is not really even close in my book because of the distance required to travel to get to Cordor, not to mention the slums puts you right on the inside of the city. If you take the frontier portal and try to go to Cordor as a monster race not only will you get stopped and attacked by players long before you get close, but the kill scripts will demolish you.
I find this post absolutly facinating as a DM. Because in my experience it's been exactly the opposite way around.
We've not had any report about surfacers coming down and being all surfacy to the UD for uh... months? Years? So either it's not happening or no one cares. By all means though, if you see paladins trotting down and stanting around spouting Dogma of Tyr or some such, do report it!
On the other hand we've had LOTs of reports and many general incidents of monster races coming up to the surface, being whole heartedly accepted by the surfacers.
We've had few reports of unsupervised surfacers going down to Andunor and 'raiding it'. (note few, there have been some I'll admit)
We've had far, far, more reports/complaints (some justified, some not) about underdark 'raiding on the surface.'
So this is all very curious. Like looking into a mirror of topsy-turvy world.

I'm not saying whether or not the portal to the slums should remain or not. I've not really a huge opinion on the matter. However I just find this view that the underdark is full of surfacers who raid it every second day from the slums portal frankly utterly and completely baffling. It just goes against all the impirical evidence I've witnessed DM side.

Also, as an aside - the Killscripts were removed over a year ago.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Maladus » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:59 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:50 pm
Maladus wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:43 am
At the risk of derailing the discussion further, I think the main problem with the portal in the slums is that, for the most part, anyone on the surface who wants to access it can waltz right up to it and attune to it and if they are not openly preaching the dogma of [insert goodly aligned deity] will face no real consequences for doing so (unless a DM sees them nonchalantly galavanting in a place their character wouldn’t normally be). Conversely, monster races, in particular those which don’t have the luxury of looking like Elves with all their skin covered which is in and of itself a dead give away, don’t have the luxury of moving freely about the surface world.

Is it still possible? Sure, and it does happen. But the comparison between the slums portal and the frontier portal is not really even close in my book because of the distance required to travel to get to Cordor, not to mention the slums puts you right on the inside of the city. If you take the frontier portal and try to go to Cordor as a monster race not only will you get stopped and attacked by players long before you get close, but the kill scripts will demolish you.
I find this post absolutly facinating as a DM. Because in my experience it's been exactly the opposite way around.
We've not had any report about surfacers coming down and being all surfacy to the UD for uh... months? Years? So either it's not happening or no one cares. By all means though, if you see paladins trotting down and stanting around spouting Dogma of Tyr or some such, do report it!
On the other hand we've had LOTs of reports and many general incidents of monster races coming up to the surface, being whole heartedly accepted by the surfacers.
We've had few reports of unsupervised surfacers going down to Andunor and 'raiding it'. (note few, there have been some I'll admit)
We've had far, far, more reports/complaints (some justified, some not) about underdark 'raiding on the surface.'
So this is all very curious. Like looking into a mirror of topsy-turvy world.

I'm not saying whether or not the portal to the slums should remain or not. I've not really a huge opinion on the matter. However I just find this view that the underdark is full of surfacers who raid it every second day from the slums portal frankly utterly and completely baffling. It just goes against all the impirical evidence I've witnessed DM side.
Yeah, I'm not suggesting that it happens with regularity but rather trying to point out the disparity that exists between how easy it is to pull of when it does happen.
DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:50 pm
Also, as an aside - the Killscripts were removed over a year ago.
Big if true.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Twily » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:11 pm

Maladus wrote:
DM GrumpyCat wrote:Also, as an aside - the Killscripts were removed over a year ago.
Big if true.
Irongron - Jan 06 2016 wrote:viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5701&p=46672&hilit=kill#p46672
1. Investigating a less intrusive and heavy-handed alternative to both the kill scripts and exiles.
Irongron - Aug 24 2016 wrote:viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25&p=70634&hilit=kill#p70634
- Duergar removed from Kill Scripts.
Irongron - Jun 22 2017 wrote:viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12659&p=105031&hilit=Kill#p105031
I'm generally very happy to engage with players, and yes, I take a softer approach. It was, after all, myself that asked for the kill scripts to be removed. This was because I have faith in our players to RP these situations, rather than suffer blanket restrictions - but that is as far as it goes.
...
Now I don't like the kill scripts, I felt they strangled RP, conflict, and treated our players like they couldn't be trusted to roleplay their race properly. Yet if this problem returns, I will definitely either ask they are reinstroduced, or remove the offending races as a playable option.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Wings of Peace » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:30 am

I just don't see the issue. I've seen the arguments that it's unfair to good aligned characters but my issue with that is twofold.

First, I don't think it's the rp hurdle people make it out to be. There's plausible reasons a good aligned character might enter the arena.

Second, good aligned builds have access to some of the most meta class combinations on the server. The belt and feats are nice certainly but the unfair power argument seems like it only makes sense if we ignore everything except itemization.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Ramza » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:00 pm

Something i'm not quite getting is why we're not handling it IC. Say your an UDer down below and you see someone you dont like, a surfacer goodie/etc, doing the fights. Your given quite an advantage on killing them. There is risk in going down there. At any point you could be ganked and Pked by the players who live in Andunor. And its a heck of a lot easier for them to get people while your doing the fight and stuck in the cage. And I dont really see a problem in anyone being able to access the Arena. Its much better than it having arbitrary restrictions that can be used for some hardcore interaction denial like the Mythal or the old Benwick Light.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Regionals » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:09 pm

I think with this kind of stuff it's much more useful to suggest positive change (ie a Cordor arena which would be amazing) than make complaints about the behavior of other players, which will either be ignored because it's too much of a headache or will lead to cool toys being taken away.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Atlantahammy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:44 pm

Ramza wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:00 pm
Something i'm not quite getting is why we're not handling it IC. Say your an UDer down below and you see someone you dont like, a surfacer goodie/etc, doing the fights. Your given quite an advantage on killing them. There is risk in going down there. At any point you could be ganked and Pked by the players who live in Andunor. And its a heck of a lot easier for them to get people while your doing the fight and stuck in the cage. And I dont really see a problem in anyone being able to access the Arena. Its much better than it having arbitrary restrictions that can be used for some hardcore interaction denial like the Mythal or the old Benwick Light.
I second this, People HATE the mythal, and benwick got whacked for that kinda behavior, and abuse that came with it.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:08 pm

Atlantahammy wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:44 pm
People HATE the mythal, and benwick got whacked for that kinda behavior, and abuse that came with it.
I disagree and find this hyperbolic and biased.
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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Atlantahammy » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:54 pm

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:08 pm
Atlantahammy wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:44 pm
People HATE the mythal, and benwick got whacked for that kinda behavior, and abuse that came with it.
I disagree and find this hyperbolic and biased.
Nono most do in fact hate the mythal because it prevents others from getting into the elven settlement, and making it one the worst places to have a shop IG... That and people feel it's a way to meta alignments.

Also thaats just what i've been told with benwick, people using the portal to meta-alignments and kill people was pretty common place, and one the reasons it got whacked.

I'm mostly trying to point out, that, isn't alignment restrictions for this, just going to cause the exact same problem?

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:33 pm

Also thaats just what i've been told with benwick, people using the portal to meta-alignments and kill people was pretty common place, and one the reasons it got whacked.
Discliamer - I never liked the Benwick Portal either- for exactly the above reason. And I actually entirely agree with you, Atlantahammy, I think adding an alignment check to the Pit fights would be a Very Bad Idea for just the reason you suggest.

However. In the interest of accuracy I myst say - i was around at the time of the fall of Benwick, playerside. Whilst I think yes, the portal was part of the problem, it was by no means the full of it. I will also say that, to their credit, I didn't really see the Benwickians doing what you describe above? Though that said I understand it did happen in the past before that.
I think that there were other reasons behind the Fall of Benwick. I think if literaly the only issue had been the gate, The Devs would have just gotten rid of that, and not the entire settlment.
With that being said? I'm mostly adding this here as a note to historical accuracy, not as any sort of huge rebuff or invitiation to debate.

The jist of it is - whether or not it was the cause of Benwicks fall, Alignment Detectors are generally not well liked on Arelith and are implemented only very scarcely (as it should be IMO.)
This too shall pass.

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Re: Andunor Slave Pit Cage Fights

Post by Ramza » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:30 pm

Well, I have to agree the Mythal is hated. Its kinda the only thing on the entirety of the Server that ensures 'No matter what happens your territory is unbreachable'. Kinda stifles any kind of desire in opposing players to even try to do it, as it would be a merely temporary matter if they went through DMs and the Mythal would be back up and functioning almost immediately after. Making the entire process just a pain with no benefits. It also causes issue in the players of Elves whom live there. What motivation do they have to commit to last ditch efforts or have any sense of peril or urgency when their home is shielded by invulnerable plot armor. Especially considering every other city has methods of getting inside them for those wanting to cause a bit of strife.

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