Scry: Suggestions?

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

QuestionGuy
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:38 am

Scry: Suggestions?

Post by QuestionGuy » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:12 am

In light of the recent fix to Scry where it does not take components if you fail to scry because you've already scried during the current rest, a request has been made for any suggestions or changes to be made to the command.

Disclaimer: This is not anything official, contributors are not required to comment or respond. Please be civil and if you must be lengthy, be concise.

Edited for clarity, see quote below.
Last edited by QuestionGuy on Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PM me the questions you don't want to ask out loud. No Judgements made, completely anonymous.

User avatar
EnigmaticSpirit
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 326
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:01 pm
Location: UK

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by EnigmaticSpirit » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:47 pm

Scry needs a complete revamp. It's utterly ridiculous.

In PNP, scrying windows were a lot easier to spot. I want to see things like spot and spellcraft playing a factor, not three feats.


TimeAdept
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by TimeAdept » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:08 pm

Spot and spellcraft are already very powerful mechanically and shouln't be buffed, nor should INT score be involved, as INT is already very highly incentivized on the server.

I don't think any changes need to happen at all atm as defeating it for important meetings and such is relatively simple, as is keeping off the radar for extended periods of time if you're willing to invest.

Dirac
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:06 pm

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by Dirac » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:03 pm

QuestionGuy wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:12 am
In light of the recent fix to Scry where it does not take components if you've already scried during the current rest, a request has been made for any suggestions or changes to be made to the command.
I hope that this isn't how it works. It implies that you can use one spell component and repeatedly scry with no further cost.

More directly, from the Arileth Update thread:
"No spell component loss when trying to scry twice without resting first."

To me this is saying that you can only scry once per rest and that (for example) if you log out and back in and you forgot that you haven't rested, it won't take your spell components again but will just warn you instead.

Is there anyone that has actually tested this?

User avatar
MalKalz
General Admin
General Admin
Posts: 3023
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:33 pm

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by MalKalz » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:57 pm

The fix was:

Previously scrying when on cooldown / having not tested still consumed spell components as if you casted the spell. The new change will inform you that you still cannot cast scry without resting but won’t consume spell components.

Does not mean that a second scry is free. It’s just that if you can’t scry, you aren’t losing spell components if you forget.

Discord: @malkalz
Determine your Public CD Key here
Can't see your vault? Have you migrated your accounts? If you have tried, and still can't see them, message me.


User avatar
naturaly
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 1:09 pm

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by naturaly » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:58 pm

I intended to make my character a scryer but I didn’t when I read about the bug of teleporting to where you’re scrying. It’s a fundamental flaw.

Lunargent
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:33 pm

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by Lunargent » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:58 pm

EnigmaticSpirit wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:47 pm
Scry needs a complete revamp. It's utterly ridiculous.

In PNP, scrying windows were a lot easier to spot. I want to see things like spot and spellcraft playing a factor, not three feats.
Bringing PnP into it is kind of pointless because of how different the game is. In PnP, Scry is a level 5 spell (or something like that) whereas on Arelith, Scrying is an -epic_spell requiring a 3 feat investment. As for scry being 'ridiculous', it isn't really. It only lasts a minute and is defeated by a wandable buff (even certain crafted/loot items have this buff, and it isn't as if they're prohibitively hard or expensive to get either). Adding even more ways to counter it as it is would make it pretty pointless, though if the duration were longer (if we're talking PnP, it's minutes/level), it'd be pretty fair if more counters existed.

ESF Divination is already much less useful than most other spell foci simply because its application is almost purely for roleplay. There are very few spells with DCs that use Divination, so you're sacrificing a lot of mechanical power to take it, especially if you're a sorcerer. If anything, I feel Scry should be stronger to make it more worth the feats--or that dedicated Diviners should get some kind of other cookie that brings the school up with the other spell foci feats.

User avatar
MalKalz
General Admin
General Admin
Posts: 3023
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:33 pm

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by MalKalz » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:06 pm

naturaly wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:58 pm
I intended to make my character a scryer but I didn’t when I read about the bug of teleporting to where you’re scrying. It’s a fundamental flaw.

The bug happens every now and then. The code generates a clone of you and sends you to the player to follow them with cutscence invisibility. It is then that you jump back to your NPC clone where it sometimes has issues.

I am not necessarily certain there is a better way to handle it presently.

Discord: @malkalz
Determine your Public CD Key here
Can't see your vault? Have you migrated your accounts? If you have tried, and still can't see them, message me.


Old Kentucky Shark
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:07 am

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by Old Kentucky Shark » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:46 pm

Lunargent wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:58 pm
ESF Divination is already much less useful than most other spell foci simply because its application is almost purely for roleplay. There are very few spells with DCs that use Divination, so you're sacrificing a lot of mechanical power to take it, especially if you're a sorcerer.
Actually, I'm not sure I'd agree with this anymore given the changes to Feeblemind and the Power Word line of spells. I'd say Divination feats are actually in a pretty great place right now between RP value and mechanical power.

User avatar
triaddraykin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 735
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:32 am

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by triaddraykin » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:23 pm

I've got a few suggestions:

Scrying length: Have scry be longer, anywhere from 3 minutes to maybe 5. You get perhaps 1 or two lines of dialogue in the (1 minute minus loading times so 40 seconds) that it presently is. BONUS: Adjustable minute times, via '-scry -2 Angela', for when you just want to make sure someone's okay, but not spend a while in it.

Scry Location: Could be a middle feat, and could tie into the Location Adventure XP, where you can tell if you've been there before. 'Your target is in Bramble Woods Trade Road' or 'You are not familiar with the area you target is in'

Bonus scry location (probably would be hard to code, but maybe it inspires) is scrying an actual area, getting a count of how many PCs are there, and maybe getting lucky and catching a snippet. Alternate version, have craftable ScryTowers(tm) that you can attune to, to scry directly on. You can only scry on one, and they're really obvious, like runic pillars or something

As for a way to fix the teleporting bug... Since you're creating an NPC and it's set to cinematic, would it be possible to set two NPCs, one that is spawned beside you when you start the scry, to record your current location, and use that as an anchor point?

Just off the top of my head.
Alia: The uncanny knack of Angela Amana to make the otherwise perpetually well-mannered girl lose her temper and be HORRIBLY ASHAMED afterwards.

Who on the Team to PM and When
Public Tower Discord
Tower Library
Scroll, Wand, & Potion Costs

User avatar
naturaly
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 1:09 pm

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by naturaly » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:25 pm

Spyre wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:06 pm

The bug happens every now and then. The code generates a clone of you and sends you to the player to follow them with cutscence invisibility. It is then that you jump back to your NPC clone where it sometimes has issues.

I am not necessarily certain there is a better way to handle it presently.
How about make it create a familiar-like creature there and you auto possess the familiar?

Lunargent
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:33 pm

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by Lunargent » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:29 pm

Old Kentucky Shark wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:46 pm
Lunargent wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:58 pm
ESF Divination is already much less useful than most other spell foci simply because its application is almost purely for roleplay. There are very few spells with DCs that use Divination, so you're sacrificing a lot of mechanical power to take it, especially if you're a sorcerer.
Actually, I'm not sure I'd agree with this anymore given the changes to Feeblemind and the Power Word line of spells. I'd say Divination feats are actually in a pretty great place right now between RP value and mechanical power.
Given the HP totals of most characters, the PW spells aren't as good as other save or die spells of their comparative levels, really. Basically, if you wouldn't play a SF on a sorc (and most don't play div on a sorc) but you would a wiz because they have feats to spare, it needs a little work.

User avatar
triaddraykin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 735
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:32 am

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by triaddraykin » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:35 am

Gonna resurrect this thread, I don't see a point in making another.

[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:22:44] Your pouch has 41 components left.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:22:44] Chase Camera Activated
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:23:17] Area Setting: [Magic] [State] [Teleport] [Transfer] [Death]
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:23:24] [One person speaks]
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:23:36] [Second person speaks]
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:23:53] Top Down Camera Activated

The :17 to :53 is the 'useable' time of the scry. 36 seconds, including fade in and fade out, by which I'm pretty sure there were a few more seconds after that timestamp that it was still loading. This is with a gaming VPN that dramatically increases the speed of my connection to Arelith. The scry was to Bendir, which took most of that time in loading.

Seriously, can we just get an extra minute on Scry or something here?
Alia: The uncanny knack of Angela Amana to make the otherwise perpetually well-mannered girl lose her temper and be HORRIBLY ASHAMED afterwards.

Who on the Team to PM and When
Public Tower Discord
Tower Library
Scroll, Wand, & Potion Costs

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:34 am

Scry in D&D lasts 1 minute per level. Granted it does take 1 hour to cast.
I believe in 5e they changed the spell to last 10 minutes and the casting time being 10 minutes as well.

At any rate, it being an epic spell on Arelith, it really should last much longer. I wouldn't be opposed to it lasting 10 minutes as long as there was a 'stop scrying' command or button to end it prematurely. That would more than make up for both lag and the loading screens (which take quite a while to load, depending on the area).


User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2114
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by -XXX- » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:43 am

I think that the issue with people being able to see the scrying character on the player list and consequently tuning into very slow typists all of a sudden is a bit more pressing than anything regarding duration as far as scrying is concerned.

Nobs
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:32 pm

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by Nobs » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:50 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:43 am
I think that the issue with people being able to see the scrying character on the player list and consequently tuning into very slow typists all of a sudden is a bit more pressing than anything regarding duration as far as scrying is concerned.
The spell duration is to short in my opinion and the fact that peeps can use the P list makes me sad aswel.

User avatar
Blood on my Lips
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by Blood on my Lips » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:50 pm

I agree the length of the scry session isn't long enough. Most people type fairly slow. You rarely get to observe anything other than a location during a scry session. And now with the loading times taking so long, the actual scry session is even further reduced and fairly useless.

It would also be nice if you could get an option to end the scry session early.

User avatar
Vincent
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:04 pm
Location: Vault 13

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by Vincent » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:47 pm

Scrying can be a very powerful tool depending on the situation in terms of IC gain: you may coincidentally witness someone reveal their entire evil plan, you may discover the hideout location of a notorious criminal or enemy of yours, you might learn all manner of things that could give you enormous leverage. I do not think it should be changed at all, I've personally never played a PC with ESF: Divination but I've plenty of friends that have, and we've managed to make impressive use of it before. I'd only ask for the related bugs to be fixed, but of course this is a matter of NWN's physical limitations rather than something that can be so casually resolved.

User avatar
triaddraykin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 735
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:32 am

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by triaddraykin » Sun May 05, 2019 10:32 pm

I'm resurrecting this thread since there's been a recent discussion of it between myself and a DM. Namely, that I must use my own name when scrying someone, I can't disguise.

Can there be any feedback given about the Player Name showing up in the Player List that people keep open while talking privately? Is this just a limitation of the engine, is it poor coding? People don't show up when they're nearby but invisible or Sanctuaried, or even Stealthed. Why should they show up when they aren't even physically there?
Alia: The uncanny knack of Angela Amana to make the otherwise perpetually well-mannered girl lose her temper and be HORRIBLY ASHAMED afterwards.

Who on the Team to PM and When
Public Tower Discord
Tower Library
Scroll, Wand, & Potion Costs

User avatar
CosmicOrderV
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 389
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:35 pm

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by CosmicOrderV » Mon May 06, 2019 4:14 am

That sounds like a very odd DM ruling. I'd bring it up with some others or an admin.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

User avatar
Queen Titania
Community Manager
Community Manager
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:44 pm
Location: The Seeliecourt singing with Tinkerbell

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by Queen Titania » Mon May 06, 2019 4:37 am

CosmicOrderV wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 4:14 am
That sounds like a very odd DM ruling. I'd bring it up with some others or an admin DM Atropos.
Actually it's not, and is in line with the current disguise rules and the text that comes up when you type -disguise. (Also ruling dispute should only go to DM Atropos, DO NOT DM Shop.)

Disguise requires an outfit change, a change of identity. I.E., you want to sneak into Cordor so you are putting on your favorite black dress, with a bit of make up and your carnevale Mask, and going by the name of Venezia.

When you are scrying you are merely observing someone from far away. You are not hiding your identity. You should not type -disguise Seer, for example, before you scry, and then remove it after the scry. (This is the context of said ruling). That's not what disguising is for. (Of course if you are scrying while in your favorite black dress sneaking into Cordor on a different identity, that is different, because you are not using it MERELY to scry, but this is a constant and active identity you are keeping up.


The reason probably is just how cutscene invisiblity works. If it's not fixable you should just have faith in your fellow players.
Please don't feed my sister.

User avatar
Party in the forest at midnight
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Mon May 06, 2019 4:44 am

I disagree with the ruling. The purpose of disguising for scrying is in-line with you not being in the area. Disguising before scrying is to prevent bugs that behave as though your character is in the area. Other players can't hit the playerlist and see your name in the area. Likewise, your character cannot get speedies while scrying, which is an even bigger issue IMO.

User avatar
Queen Titania
Community Manager
Community Manager
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:44 pm
Location: The Seeliecourt singing with Tinkerbell

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by Queen Titania » Mon May 06, 2019 4:47 am

These should be things addressed mechanically *if* possible, but you should definitely in general not get around a bugged mechanic by breaking a rule, unless DM A. says otherwise.

Instead the mechanic should be addressed and pointed out, and hopefully it gets fixed.

That said even if the player list part can't be fixed, people that metagame you scrying can be reported, and such has been dealt with in the past.
Please don't feed my sister.

User avatar
thief of light
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:48 am

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by thief of light » Mon May 06, 2019 4:50 am

I think meta-ing the player list, I.E, keeping the playerlist up to see who is your immediate area (and thus poor man tell who and when youre being scried) is 100% exploiting.

Which is to say cheating. Which is to say, not being a cool dude and should probably go to the rude baby jail.

Given that this is something that happens so frequently that scriers feel the need to disguise so that they are not meta'd when scrying, maybe the initial issue of cheaters should be addressed. Then it wouldnt functionally matter if someone is -disguised while scrying or not, because thats not information your character should know anyway.

So yeah maybe the answer is reporting cheaters and cheaters getting rude baby jail.* and not disbaring a means to avoid getting affected from someone cheating or a buggy base system.
DM Marduk: the -unrecommend button is !

User avatar
Queen Titania
Community Manager
Community Manager
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:44 pm
Location: The Seeliecourt singing with Tinkerbell

Re: Scry: Suggestions?

Post by Queen Titania » Mon May 06, 2019 4:54 am

The answer is definitely both:

1: Don't mis-use disguise. It doesn't mean you can't disguise and scry, just actively be disguising. Disguising with -1 bluff/perform and changing your name while looking exactly the same is misuse of the mechanic. Constantly disguised Sharran scrying on the other hand would be perfectly okay.

2: Report people who exploit, I.E. metagame the player list or perceive you are the mother of a hundred pet turtles without having ever heard or met of your person. That way we can talk to them and correct their behavior.

The last thing we want to see is rules broken because of rules broken. That means there hasn't been reporting for us to address in most cases, we need to have these things reported or we can't see it corrected.
Please don't feed my sister.

Post Reply