Scry: Suggestions?
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Scry: Suggestions?
In light of the recent fix to Scry where it does not take components if you fail to scry because you've already scried during the current rest, a request has been made for any suggestions or changes to be made to the command.
Disclaimer: This is not anything official, contributors are not required to comment or respond. Please be civil and if you must be lengthy, be concise.
Edited for clarity, see quote below.
Disclaimer: This is not anything official, contributors are not required to comment or respond. Please be civil and if you must be lengthy, be concise.
Edited for clarity, see quote below.
Last edited by QuestionGuy on Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
Scry needs a complete revamp. It's utterly ridiculous.
In PNP, scrying windows were a lot easier to spot. I want to see things like spot and spellcraft playing a factor, not three feats.
In PNP, scrying windows were a lot easier to spot. I want to see things like spot and spellcraft playing a factor, not three feats.
Re: Scry: Suggestions?
Spot and spellcraft are already very powerful mechanically and shouln't be buffed, nor should INT score be involved, as INT is already very highly incentivized on the server.
I don't think any changes need to happen at all atm as defeating it for important meetings and such is relatively simple, as is keeping off the radar for extended periods of time if you're willing to invest.
I don't think any changes need to happen at all atm as defeating it for important meetings and such is relatively simple, as is keeping off the radar for extended periods of time if you're willing to invest.
Re: Scry: Suggestions?
I hope that this isn't how it works. It implies that you can use one spell component and repeatedly scry with no further cost.QuestionGuy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:12 amIn light of the recent fix to Scry where it does not take components if you've already scried during the current rest, a request has been made for any suggestions or changes to be made to the command.
More directly, from the Arileth Update thread:
"No spell component loss when trying to scry twice without resting first."
To me this is saying that you can only scry once per rest and that (for example) if you log out and back in and you forgot that you haven't rested, it won't take your spell components again but will just warn you instead.
Is there anyone that has actually tested this?
Re: Scry: Suggestions?
The fix was:
Previously scrying when on cooldown / having not tested still consumed spell components as if you casted the spell. The new change will inform you that you still cannot cast scry without resting but won’t consume spell components.
Does not mean that a second scry is free. It’s just that if you can’t scry, you aren’t losing spell components if you forget.
Previously scrying when on cooldown / having not tested still consumed spell components as if you casted the spell. The new change will inform you that you still cannot cast scry without resting but won’t consume spell components.
Does not mean that a second scry is free. It’s just that if you can’t scry, you aren’t losing spell components if you forget.
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
I intended to make my character a scryer but I didn’t when I read about the bug of teleporting to where you’re scrying. It’s a fundamental flaw.
Re: Scry: Suggestions?
Bringing PnP into it is kind of pointless because of how different the game is. In PnP, Scry is a level 5 spell (or something like that) whereas on Arelith, Scrying is an -epic_spell requiring a 3 feat investment. As for scry being 'ridiculous', it isn't really. It only lasts a minute and is defeated by a wandable buff (even certain crafted/loot items have this buff, and it isn't as if they're prohibitively hard or expensive to get either). Adding even more ways to counter it as it is would make it pretty pointless, though if the duration were longer (if we're talking PnP, it's minutes/level), it'd be pretty fair if more counters existed.EnigmaticSpirit wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:47 pmScry needs a complete revamp. It's utterly ridiculous.
In PNP, scrying windows were a lot easier to spot. I want to see things like spot and spellcraft playing a factor, not three feats.
ESF Divination is already much less useful than most other spell foci simply because its application is almost purely for roleplay. There are very few spells with DCs that use Divination, so you're sacrificing a lot of mechanical power to take it, especially if you're a sorcerer. If anything, I feel Scry should be stronger to make it more worth the feats--or that dedicated Diviners should get some kind of other cookie that brings the school up with the other spell foci feats.
Re: Scry: Suggestions?
The bug happens every now and then. The code generates a clone of you and sends you to the player to follow them with cutscence invisibility. It is then that you jump back to your NPC clone where it sometimes has issues.
I am not necessarily certain there is a better way to handle it presently.
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
Actually, I'm not sure I'd agree with this anymore given the changes to Feeblemind and the Power Word line of spells. I'd say Divination feats are actually in a pretty great place right now between RP value and mechanical power.Lunargent wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:58 pmESF Divination is already much less useful than most other spell foci simply because its application is almost purely for roleplay. There are very few spells with DCs that use Divination, so you're sacrificing a lot of mechanical power to take it, especially if you're a sorcerer.
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
I've got a few suggestions:
Scrying length: Have scry be longer, anywhere from 3 minutes to maybe 5. You get perhaps 1 or two lines of dialogue in the (1 minute minus loading times so 40 seconds) that it presently is. BONUS: Adjustable minute times, via '-scry -2 Angela', for when you just want to make sure someone's okay, but not spend a while in it.
Scry Location: Could be a middle feat, and could tie into the Location Adventure XP, where you can tell if you've been there before. 'Your target is in Bramble Woods Trade Road' or 'You are not familiar with the area you target is in'
Bonus scry location (probably would be hard to code, but maybe it inspires) is scrying an actual area, getting a count of how many PCs are there, and maybe getting lucky and catching a snippet. Alternate version, have craftable ScryTowers(tm) that you can attune to, to scry directly on. You can only scry on one, and they're really obvious, like runic pillars or something
As for a way to fix the teleporting bug... Since you're creating an NPC and it's set to cinematic, would it be possible to set two NPCs, one that is spawned beside you when you start the scry, to record your current location, and use that as an anchor point?
Just off the top of my head.
Scrying length: Have scry be longer, anywhere from 3 minutes to maybe 5. You get perhaps 1 or two lines of dialogue in the (1 minute minus loading times so 40 seconds) that it presently is. BONUS: Adjustable minute times, via '-scry -2 Angela', for when you just want to make sure someone's okay, but not spend a while in it.
Scry Location: Could be a middle feat, and could tie into the Location Adventure XP, where you can tell if you've been there before. 'Your target is in Bramble Woods Trade Road' or 'You are not familiar with the area you target is in'
Bonus scry location (probably would be hard to code, but maybe it inspires) is scrying an actual area, getting a count of how many PCs are there, and maybe getting lucky and catching a snippet. Alternate version, have craftable ScryTowers(tm) that you can attune to, to scry directly on. You can only scry on one, and they're really obvious, like runic pillars or something
As for a way to fix the teleporting bug... Since you're creating an NPC and it's set to cinematic, would it be possible to set two NPCs, one that is spawned beside you when you start the scry, to record your current location, and use that as an anchor point?
Just off the top of my head.
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
How about make it create a familiar-like creature there and you auto possess the familiar?Spyre wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:06 pm
The bug happens every now and then. The code generates a clone of you and sends you to the player to follow them with cutscence invisibility. It is then that you jump back to your NPC clone where it sometimes has issues.
I am not necessarily certain there is a better way to handle it presently.
Re: Scry: Suggestions?
Given the HP totals of most characters, the PW spells aren't as good as other save or die spells of their comparative levels, really. Basically, if you wouldn't play a SF on a sorc (and most don't play div on a sorc) but you would a wiz because they have feats to spare, it needs a little work.Old Kentucky Shark wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:46 pmActually, I'm not sure I'd agree with this anymore given the changes to Feeblemind and the Power Word line of spells. I'd say Divination feats are actually in a pretty great place right now between RP value and mechanical power.Lunargent wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:58 pmESF Divination is already much less useful than most other spell foci simply because its application is almost purely for roleplay. There are very few spells with DCs that use Divination, so you're sacrificing a lot of mechanical power to take it, especially if you're a sorcerer.
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
Gonna resurrect this thread, I don't see a point in making another.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:22:44] Your pouch has 41 components left.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:22:44] Chase Camera Activated
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:23:17] Area Setting: [Magic] [State] [Teleport] [Transfer] [Death]
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:23:24] [One person speaks]
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:23:36] [Second person speaks]
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:23:53] Top Down Camera Activated
The :17 to :53 is the 'useable' time of the scry. 36 seconds, including fade in and fade out, by which I'm pretty sure there were a few more seconds after that timestamp that it was still loading. This is with a gaming VPN that dramatically increases the speed of my connection to Arelith. The scry was to Bendir, which took most of that time in loading.
Seriously, can we just get an extra minute on Scry or something here?
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:22:44] Your pouch has 41 components left.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:22:44] Chase Camera Activated
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:23:17] Area Setting: [Magic] [State] [Teleport] [Transfer] [Death]
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:23:24] [One person speaks]
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:23:36] [Second person speaks]
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Tue Oct 16 00:23:53] Top Down Camera Activated
The :17 to :53 is the 'useable' time of the scry. 36 seconds, including fade in and fade out, by which I'm pretty sure there were a few more seconds after that timestamp that it was still loading. This is with a gaming VPN that dramatically increases the speed of my connection to Arelith. The scry was to Bendir, which took most of that time in loading.
Seriously, can we just get an extra minute on Scry or something here?
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
Scry in D&D lasts 1 minute per level. Granted it does take 1 hour to cast.
I believe in 5e they changed the spell to last 10 minutes and the casting time being 10 minutes as well.
At any rate, it being an epic spell on Arelith, it really should last much longer. I wouldn't be opposed to it lasting 10 minutes as long as there was a 'stop scrying' command or button to end it prematurely. That would more than make up for both lag and the loading screens (which take quite a while to load, depending on the area).
I believe in 5e they changed the spell to last 10 minutes and the casting time being 10 minutes as well.
At any rate, it being an epic spell on Arelith, it really should last much longer. I wouldn't be opposed to it lasting 10 minutes as long as there was a 'stop scrying' command or button to end it prematurely. That would more than make up for both lag and the loading screens (which take quite a while to load, depending on the area).
Re: Scry: Suggestions?
I think that the issue with people being able to see the scrying character on the player list and consequently tuning into very slow typists all of a sudden is a bit more pressing than anything regarding duration as far as scrying is concerned.
Re: Scry: Suggestions?
The spell duration is to short in my opinion and the fact that peeps can use the P list makes me sad aswel.
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
I agree the length of the scry session isn't long enough. Most people type fairly slow. You rarely get to observe anything other than a location during a scry session. And now with the loading times taking so long, the actual scry session is even further reduced and fairly useless.
It would also be nice if you could get an option to end the scry session early.
It would also be nice if you could get an option to end the scry session early.
Re: Scry: Suggestions?
Scrying can be a very powerful tool depending on the situation in terms of IC gain: you may coincidentally witness someone reveal their entire evil plan, you may discover the hideout location of a notorious criminal or enemy of yours, you might learn all manner of things that could give you enormous leverage. I do not think it should be changed at all, I've personally never played a PC with ESF: Divination but I've plenty of friends that have, and we've managed to make impressive use of it before. I'd only ask for the related bugs to be fixed, but of course this is a matter of NWN's physical limitations rather than something that can be so casually resolved.
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
I'm resurrecting this thread since there's been a recent discussion of it between myself and a DM. Namely, that I must use my own name when scrying someone, I can't disguise.
Can there be any feedback given about the Player Name showing up in the Player List that people keep open while talking privately? Is this just a limitation of the engine, is it poor coding? People don't show up when they're nearby but invisible or Sanctuaried, or even Stealthed. Why should they show up when they aren't even physically there?
Can there be any feedback given about the Player Name showing up in the Player List that people keep open while talking privately? Is this just a limitation of the engine, is it poor coding? People don't show up when they're nearby but invisible or Sanctuaried, or even Stealthed. Why should they show up when they aren't even physically there?
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
That sounds like a very odd DM ruling. I'd bring it up with some others or an admin.
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
Actually it's not, and is in line with the current disguise rules and the text that comes up when you type -disguise. (Also ruling dispute should only go to DM Atropos, DO NOT DM Shop.)CosmicOrderV wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 4:14 amThat sounds like a very odd DM ruling. I'd bring it up with some others or an admin DM Atropos.
Disguise requires an outfit change, a change of identity. I.E., you want to sneak into Cordor so you are putting on your favorite black dress, with a bit of make up and your carnevale Mask, and going by the name of Venezia.
When you are scrying you are merely observing someone from far away. You are not hiding your identity. You should not type -disguise Seer, for example, before you scry, and then remove it after the scry. (This is the context of said ruling). That's not what disguising is for. (Of course if you are scrying while in your favorite black dress sneaking into Cordor on a different identity, that is different, because you are not using it MERELY to scry, but this is a constant and active identity you are keeping up.
The reason probably is just how cutscene invisiblity works. If it's not fixable you should just have faith in your fellow players.
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
I disagree with the ruling. The purpose of disguising for scrying is in-line with you not being in the area. Disguising before scrying is to prevent bugs that behave as though your character is in the area. Other players can't hit the playerlist and see your name in the area. Likewise, your character cannot get speedies while scrying, which is an even bigger issue IMO.
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
These should be things addressed mechanically *if* possible, but you should definitely in general not get around a bugged mechanic by breaking a rule, unless DM A. says otherwise.
Instead the mechanic should be addressed and pointed out, and hopefully it gets fixed.
That said even if the player list part can't be fixed, people that metagame you scrying can be reported, and such has been dealt with in the past.
Instead the mechanic should be addressed and pointed out, and hopefully it gets fixed.
That said even if the player list part can't be fixed, people that metagame you scrying can be reported, and such has been dealt with in the past.
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
I think meta-ing the player list, I.E, keeping the playerlist up to see who is your immediate area (and thus poor man tell who and when youre being scried) is 100% exploiting.
Which is to say cheating. Which is to say, not being a cool dude and should probably go to the rude baby jail.
Given that this is something that happens so frequently that scriers feel the need to disguise so that they are not meta'd when scrying, maybe the initial issue of cheaters should be addressed. Then it wouldnt functionally matter if someone is -disguised while scrying or not, because thats not information your character should know anyway.
So yeah maybe the answer is reporting cheaters and cheaters getting rude baby jail.* and not disbaring a means to avoid getting affected from someone cheating or a buggy base system.
Which is to say cheating. Which is to say, not being a cool dude and should probably go to the rude baby jail.
Given that this is something that happens so frequently that scriers feel the need to disguise so that they are not meta'd when scrying, maybe the initial issue of cheaters should be addressed. Then it wouldnt functionally matter if someone is -disguised while scrying or not, because thats not information your character should know anyway.
So yeah maybe the answer is reporting cheaters and cheaters getting rude baby jail.* and not disbaring a means to avoid getting affected from someone cheating or a buggy base system.
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Re: Scry: Suggestions?
The answer is definitely both:
1: Don't mis-use disguise. It doesn't mean you can't disguise and scry, just actively be disguising. Disguising with -1 bluff/perform and changing your name while looking exactly the same is misuse of the mechanic. Constantly disguised Sharran scrying on the other hand would be perfectly okay.
2: Report people who exploit, I.E. metagame the player list or perceive you are the mother of a hundred pet turtles without having ever heard or met of your person. That way we can talk to them and correct their behavior.
The last thing we want to see is rules broken because of rules broken. That means there hasn't been reporting for us to address in most cases, we need to have these things reported or we can't see it corrected.
1: Don't mis-use disguise. It doesn't mean you can't disguise and scry, just actively be disguising. Disguising with -1 bluff/perform and changing your name while looking exactly the same is misuse of the mechanic. Constantly disguised Sharran scrying on the other hand would be perfectly okay.
2: Report people who exploit, I.E. metagame the player list or perceive you are the mother of a hundred pet turtles without having ever heard or met of your person. That way we can talk to them and correct their behavior.
The last thing we want to see is rules broken because of rules broken. That means there hasn't been reporting for us to address in most cases, we need to have these things reported or we can't see it corrected.
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