Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

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TheShadowdove
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Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by TheShadowdove » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:21 pm

Hey Arelithians,

I was looking at monk, especially with the beamdog changes, and in comparison to the great things Arelith has done for other classes and I feel that the class is kind of in a weird place.

When paired with the other already Arelith adjusted classes it makes their abilities potentially much better. However, for most d&d editions on top of NWN, monk has had a tough time competing (with exceptions) despite being an iconic class.

I feel defensively DEXTERITY monks have the potential to be outstanding. But then they sacrifice so much of their already struggling offensive ability that they offer very little. This is even more so for Unarmed monks who already give up an item slot to compete at a mediocre level compared to their Kama or quarterstaff wielding counterparts.

Strength monks suffer less offensively, despite having low base attack bonus, but are no longer as defensively capable as the Dexterity focused monks.

Then the changes to the base monk abilities that came with the beamdog enhanced editions changes are a common discussion amongst us these days. They really hammered an already injured class into the ground.

Other classes have received a great deal of attention to help in making them more appropriate for the Arelith standards of balance. Fighter for example was already a much more competent class than monk, but was tastefully improved with class appropriate benefits that scale well as you progress. Paladin and other classes with unique abilities had them changed from daily uses to cooldowns, which has done a lot for them.

Perhaps monk is in need of some of this careful attention that other classes have seen to bring it up to the appropriate standards?

The class as a whole does not necessarily require adjustments to it's prime defensive abilities.

Maybe addressing the offensive abilities and lack of utility could be the proper way of addressing the issue?

Some classes receive things such as attack bonus boosts, feats, or strength / dexterity boosts at appropriate level investments. These might be a similar way to making the class less laughable when invested heavily into?

Maybe I'm wrong, but something like having Dexterity monks instead or DEX get strength at certain intervals, and having strength monks receive dexterity bonuses to counteract the fact that going one over the other causes the class to flounder so far in certain areas?

Does anyone believe that an unarmed attack bonus increase via new item recipes or Arelith style level investment bonuses (like fighter,rogue,assassin, or ranger) could be beneficial without overstepping?

Is there a way to make essences which only work on gauntlets/gloves, or to add recipes new recipes with specific class/class level requirements?

Perhaps some of you with a better mind for balance wouldn't mind sharing your thoughts?

It is rarely an issue, and disagreements are perfectly normal, but please be civil with each other. We are all here because we love the game and Arelith.

I look forward to hearing your opinions and ideas on the matter.

-Dove

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:28 pm

I think monks could do with a subclass or two focusing on non-defensive abilities. Or just something to reward going deep into monk levels instead of taking just enough for high APR rogue shenanigans.

Also, uncanny dodge. Every other class that needs it gets it free now, except for monks, which seems silly.

Edit: And either un-nerf stunning fist or trade it out for something different entirely. Maybe a damage or AB boost that draws off of stunning fist charges.

Double edit: We've got cooldowns and infinicasters, how 'bout popping wholeness of body and empty body onto cooldowns? Eh? Eh?
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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by TheShadowdove » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:36 pm

Now that you mention it, rangers having uncanny dodge but not monk is somewhat strange. Ranger definitely deserves it, but monk doesn't thematically nor mechanically have any less use for it.

Also, the monk lvl 20 capstone "Perfect Self" is basically useless on Arelith by that level.

It could use a looking at as well.

Edit: the damage reduction part of the capstone is what I'm referring to.

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:44 pm

Some quick and dirty monk changes that may or may not be overpowered, don't @ me:

Ki Strike <-> Stunning Fist toggle.
A -command or something that switches you between two options: One, the default stunning fist (is it possible to un-nerf it or is it hardcoded?), or two: A short duration AB/Damage boost equal to your ki strike level. Fist only.

Cooldown on wholeness, empty.

Boost wholeness of body healing to do half monk times wis mod, or the default, whichever is higher. (Change numbers as you like, you get the picture)

Path that trades defensive abilities (Monk-level-AC, wholeness, empty, possibly wis AC?) for offensive abilities.

Perfect Self 20/+1 DR changes to be 20/+X, with the X being your ki strike level. (+3 for most monks, +4 or +5 for wis based monks. Trade off is wis-based monks can't hit.)

Edit: Paths off the top of my head. Also give monks uncanny dodge
Four Elements, all alignments: Trade Qpalm, stunfist, empty, wholeness. They become activatables that do fun elemental things depending on which you attune yourself to of earth, fire, water, air. Attunement toggleable but on an RL cooldown like rogue grenades?

Order of the Long Death, LE, LN?: Trade qpalm, stunfist, empty, wholeness. Gain some tankiness/resistances, your toggles become vampiric strikes and gaining buffs from fallen enemies. Some palemaster impersonation maybe.

Order of the Crescent Moon, LE: Trade abilities. Gain poison use, invisibility casts, weakening strikes, and some weird monk weapons. Whip, sickle, etc.

Drunken Master, any align: Trade abilities. Gain buffs-on-drunkenness, and some defensive boosts for wobbling around fake-drunk.

Open Hand, any align: Lose wholeness of body, Empty body, and wisdom to AC. Gain accuracy boosts, an extra attack at 21 monk, and wisdom to damage. (Capped by monk level somehow.)

Sun Soul, LG, LN: Trade abilities. Gain anti-undead and positive energy abilities.
Edit while editing: Now that I think about it, scaling wis-to-ac by monk level would probably open up the space to buff them more.
Last edited by One Two Three Five on Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sad_zav
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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by sad_zav » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:23 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again--a way to sacrifice bonus movement speed for AB.
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One Two Three Five
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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:26 pm

That's a good one yea. Maybe stances IG that you can learn at various monasteries and from other monks of sufficient level that know them? Easier than paths probably. You can have one stance at a time, and it changes your monk stuff?

So like.

Rhun Mountain Stance: Lose x% of monk speed, gain +x to AB. (Divine Power-like, so you get extra attacks at a certain point?) Found at, well, you know where.

Killing Viper Stance: Lose defense stuff, gain damage bonus and use poison until toggled. Have to kill viper grandmaster to learn.

Aasimar Stance: Gain some light-based boosts. Have to kill [DATA EXPUNGED]

so on so forth.
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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by TheShadowdove » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:28 pm

I like the idea of perfect self scaling with ki strike level. That's actually a very elegant way to make it improve alongside investment so that it can not be abused by class dipping.

The idea of toggling stunning fist as something else is good too, assuming they never reverse the nerf. Trading it for a stacking magical enhancement bonus like arcane Archer's might be a fine replacement for a pretty much expendable ability. However, I also see stunning fist as a classic monk ability that I regret to see in it's current state. It was a thematic ability that made monk feel special in older d&d editions.

Cooldowns are also proven to be a great alternative to uses per day. Especially with Arelith's mechanics discouraging rest spammers, while also making per day abilities in a much more significant hole to climb out of to be used.

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by kainshots » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:58 pm

I would like to see monks get insightful strike where they use there wisdom modifier instead of dex/str for there attack bonus if it's higher, but limit it to only be for unarmed. That way monk is still fine and not buffed for those kama/quaterstaff dips, but also makes it viable to go the wis unarmed route aiming for that ki +5. And then make there activatable abilities cd based rather then uses.

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by Dirac » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:18 pm

How is Perfect Self useless? It's immunity to all mind-affecting spells and effects. I'm hearing a lot of weird stuff out of the OP. Rogues fighters, and barbarians were buffed because they were pretty much junk.

On the other hand, I think we can all agree that defensively monks are in one of the greatest positions which grows as you take more monk levels.

In my opinion, the monk damage output needs to be offset with these many defensive capabilities in mind. Also, it's vary hard to quantify the benefit of movement speed (in PvP mostly) which in my opinion is one of the most powerful feats they have. It's that capability to retreat and advance from enemies which allows them to control the flow of battle.

Also in terms of damage output, I have not seen one chart or model illustrating this disparity. I mean, how low is the damage output relative to another cookie cutter build like those F/R/WMs? I think what you will find given the number of attacks per round is that monks are very competitive vs. low AC but get worse as AC increase (rightly so). Then big question then becomes, why should they have equivalent damage output to say... a rogue?

I think that if monks need an increase in damage output this should be reflected in weapons accessible thru crafting. It's the easiest most quantifiable solution. If the damage output is low, add +1 AB, etc etc etc. Also, Kama vs. unarmed damage outputs should be reflected that way as well. It's easy to do the math here, guys like Kenji et al love this stuff.

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by Regionals » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:05 pm

Maybe Ki Strike could add to AB and/or damage when wearing gloves instead of doing the very little it does now?

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by TheShadowdove » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:20 pm

Thanks for your posts folks.

@Dirac we were speaking of the damage reduction part of perfect self. I get why you think we'd be nuts not to think mind effect immunity is awesome though haha!

About the lack of damage offsetting their defensive capabilities. I agree that it is a difficult balance.

The more monk you take, the better your defense scales but the more mediocre your commitment makes you damage wise. Monk shines more as a multiclass unless your goal is only to be a minimum of average damage while surviving most encounters.

I don't believe they absolutely need and integrated damage boosts, even though a small one would be welcome without tipping the glass. However, I do agree that a way to boost their attack bonus would help bring the monk class out of the strange place then are offensively.

Strength monks suffer a lot to be half decent at dealing damage despite low returns by investing heavily into offense. I wouldn't say they should be as good at surviving as a dexterity based monk, but some sort of str focused boost to defense might be decent.

This is again why I believe scaling ab increases based upon monk investment is a great idea.

I also believe still that giving Dex monks some strength and strength monks some Dex, not a lot, might be helpful. Like +1 every 8 or 10 levels or monk.

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by TheShadowdove » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:23 pm

Regionals wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:05 pm
Maybe Ki Strike could add to AB and/or damage when wearing gloves instead of doing the very little it does now?
That'd be a decent offensive bonus to unarmed monks.

Perhaps giving the class a wisdom boost to their gloves like fighter gains to shields armor and helmets.

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by TheShadowdove » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:23 pm

Regionals wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:05 pm
Maybe Ki Strike could add to AB and/or damage when wearing gloves instead of doing the very little it does now?
That'd be a decent offensive bonus to unarmed monks.

Perhaps giving the class a wisdom boost to their gloves like fighter gains AC to shields armor and helmets.

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:01 am

Maybe give level 28 Monks the Overwhelming Critical (Unarmed Strike) feat? I think that going full monk should grant some benefits, just like it does with Fighters.


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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by Twily » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:08 am

I've played many unarmed monks, and I don't really feel like the typical builds for such are in that bad of a place.

That said:
Pure Monks do need a lot of love, they're significantly weaker than 20-25monk builds in almost every way(aside from a minimal speed difference and spell resistance difference).
Things such as KiStrike4 for free, no wis requirement on KiStrike5 if Monk28+, and/or being able to take EpicDodge without the other pre-reqs beyond the dex requirement if Monk28+ come to mind as some ideas.

On top of that, it would be nice to see monk paths offered for all monk heavy builds, ones that offer optional alterations to the usual playstyle of the class without forcing it on every player. (Much like how wizards can either be a plain wizard, spellsword or wildmage)

The biggest change I do feel all monks should get, is Uncanny Dodge I for free in the first couple levels. Not only does it make logical sense for a monk to have such, basicaly every other class designed to be melee and dex based has it, and even some beyond that such as Barbarian and effectively DwarvenDefender.
Arelith's heavy reliance on bandages makes lacking Uncanny Dodge brutal for monks, especially in the early to mid levels.

Beyond that, I can only think of two other things: Making two nearly useless abilities useful; Quivering Palm and Wholeness of body.
The suggestion to make Wholeness of Body be on a cooldown I quite like, it's a small enough change that'd be a quality of life thing more than anything else.
In regards to Quivering Palm.. Even if it is fun when it does work, it's rather dreadful(If your QPalm works, 99% of the time it was something you would shread apart in seconds without it). I'm not sure how I'd change it in a way that wouldn't get silly though.
Perspective: Arrow of Death people say isn't great.
QPalm is a real attack instead of touch attack, can't target objects(no insta-kill phylacteries), is a melee attack instead of a ranged attack, doesn't work on crit-immune, and can only be used on people of lower level; it's worse in basically every way
Last edited by Twily on Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by Dirac » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:17 pm

Why does it make sense that they get uncanny dodge? Monks don't get uncanny dodge because they maintain their AC from wisdom when caught flat footed. This is because monks are supposed to be Wisdom based.

So with uncanny dodge, not only would they have some of the highest AC in the game but they now maintain ALL types of it when flat footed. There is a class balance perspective that need to be looked at as well, not just giving out game changing feats carelessly.

In addition, i'm not sure how giving them uncanny dodge would make them respond to sneak attacks. Last thing we want is high level monks immune to sneak attacks, oh dear.

In regards to their wisdom based attacks like Quivering Palm and Stunning, I think that these particular attacks are less used because Arileth players need to spread 3 stats (either Wis/Str/Con or Wis/Dex/Con). Which in my mind is part of a trade-off system. I mean, from a PvP standpoint, giving them tankiness and the capability to one-shot very effectively would cause an imbalance (not so much PvE).
Last edited by Dirac on Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by One Two Three Five » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:25 pm

That's not what would happen. Anyway, uncanny dodge is a necessary feat on anyone with even a little dex because of how completely broken the combat pathfinding is. EE made it worse by having characters take random 15 foot backsteps and drop out of combat every two rounds. It's more a safeguard against NWN's bad engine than anything else.
s a class balance perspective that need to be looked at as well, not just giving out game changing feats carelessly
Warlock suggests you're wrong. Right now, monk is the only class with a dex interest that doesn't pick it up for free. It's also, not coincidentally, the only one of those classes that hasn't gotten buffed/modified/path'd by the dev team. Quarterstaff barely counts because it's more a rogue buff than a monk one. It's no coincidence that the best 'monk' build has 19 rogue levels.
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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by Dirac » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:48 pm

That's amusing... Why not give out uncanny dodge to all classes since NwN is so broke? That and, technically you can go dex based with all classes so they have a dex "interest" as well?

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by Nitro » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:54 pm

Dirac wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:48 pm
That and, technically you can go dex based with all classes so they have a dex "interest" as well?
Saying that wizards and sorcerers have a DEX interest just because they 'can' invest in dexterity is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by Opustus » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:56 pm

I like the idea of monastic orders showing mechanically a lot to promote monk RP. My simple balancing suggestions are:

-Give monk Ki strike 4 and 5 for free at epic levels.

-Unlock Devastating critical for Unarmed if possible. (And witness the doom of Dev-critting totem druids?)

-Give Uncanny dodge I. (Even warlock gets it!)

-If natural DEX is higher than STR, give +2 soft STR every five levels starting at level 15. If natural STR is higher than DEX, give +2 soft DEX every five levels starting at level 15. (I have no clue what happens if natural STR and DEX are even!)

-Make Wholeness of body, Empty body, and Quivering palm work on cooldowns.

-Monastic order gloves (tied to alignment LG, LN, LE, with UMD40 restrictions).
Good: +4AB, +1d4 physical and 1d4 positive damage, on-hit: daze DC14, 25%, 3 rounds
Neutral: +4AB, +2d4 physical damage, on-hit: slow DC20, 50%, 2 rounds
Evil: +4AB, +1d4 physical and 1d4 negative damage, on-hit: blindness DC14, 25%, 3 rounds
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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by TheShadowdove » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:28 pm

Opustus wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:56 pm
I like the idea of monastic orders showing mechanically a lot to promote monk RP. My simple balancing suggestions are:

-Give monk Ki strike 4 and 5 for free at epic levels.

-Unlock Devastating critical for Unarmed if possible.

-Give Uncanny dodge I. (Even warlock gets it!)

-If natural DEX is higher than STR, give +2 soft STR every five levels starting at level 15. If natural STR is higher than DEX, give +2 soft DEX every five levels starting at level 15. (I have no clue what happens if natural STR and DEX are even!)

-Make Wholeness of body, Empty body, and Quivering palm work on cooldowns.

-Monastic order gloves (tied to alignment LG, LN, LE, with UMD40 restrictions).
Good: +4AB, +physical and positive damage, on-hit: daze DC20, 25%, 1 round
Neutral: +4AB, +physical damage, on-hit: slow DC20, 50%, 1 round
Evil: +4AB, +physical and negative damage, on-hit: blindness DC20, 25%, 1 round
This is rare, but I actually REALLY like all of these suggestions. As in, if they were all implemented together I don't believe it would cause imbalance, but it would make monk 30 incredibly viable as opposed to a gimmick, while supporting previous rp choices to single class.

As far monks and uncanny dodge. I'd have to say that it suits the class very much. The original monk which was one of the core classes in first ed. d&d and later editions, which obviously nwn is based upon, was created due to an author's interest in a character in a book series. The character in that series undergoes training which is very heavily physical, so much that he has to change his daily life eating habits and indulgences eventually to progress. The belief being that he was to be trained to the lengths of becoming a supernatural ability bearing assassin.

The abilities he gains are very much what monk as a d&d class comes to acquire, and even then it was considered weak compared to other classes. It uses mediation and zen influences as a large part of the concept, but it is very much intended to be an unworldly dexterous and physical pugilist class. Even the character in the novels forgoes all weapons eventually, choosing instead to become the weapon.

In the Forgotten realms, in which Arelith is currently set, it is very much the same. There are other monastic tradition in the setting, many which are not as physical and are instead more innate or even psionic, but most are physical. Some of the most prominent characters who are monks such Master Kane, Afrafrenfere, and Danica Maupoissant are all physically inclined and incredibly dexterous. I have the pleasure of speaking with R.A. Salvatore from time to time, and he actually loves monks. I asked him about the origins of Master Kane a while back actually and this is what he replied.

"Well met again! Kane, Gareth and the gang first appeared in a series of Modules for D&D - the high-level Bloodstone Series, by Doug Niles. I got to flesh them out some more in "The Bloodstone Lands" resource guide (2nd Edition D&D). And then of course, we see them in the Sellswords Trilogy.

And again, I might add, in Companions Codex.

My love of monks is right there, believe me. The Cleric Quintet was supposed to be the Monk Quintet, but monks had been reduced/removed from 2nd Edition. Broke my heart - though I got to put in Danica, at least!

Monks are also the focus of, and the reason I wrote, DemonWars. They're also the dominant, by far, class in the DemonWars: Reformation RPG that I created via kickstarter.

If you haven't checked out those books and that game, you really should!

http://rasalvastore.com/#!/DemonWars-Re ... ry=5393282

Heck ya, monks FTW!"


Strength and Dexterity are very traditionally monk abilities, and the practice of training both mind and body is hugely done in order to manipulate the mystical energy known as Ki to augment their physical abilities alongside others.

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by Diablo3Monk » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:29 pm

Devastating critical on an unarmed monk sounds pretty dope, tbh. I just imagine the five point palm exploding heart technique [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrigaQbUvZQ]. Since most of the other class and racials are getting cooldowns over uses per day, it's about time for monks to receive the same kind of love as well!

Edit: Despite my name, I'm not playing any monk characters!

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by Dirac » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:17 pm

Nitro wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:54 pm
Dirac wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:48 pm
That and, technically you can go dex based with all classes so they have a dex "interest" as well?
Saying that wizards and sorcerers have a DEX interest just because they 'can' invest in dexterity is just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Yeah, that was the point. But I guess valid arguments are in the eye of the beholder. No matter, I will move out of the way and allow for arguments that satisfy the particular audience. Sorry for that.

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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:20 pm

Twily wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:08 am
Pure Monks do need a lot of love
If you play pure Anything-Except-Warlock, you'll find it sub-par and might get the impression it needs buffs.

Pureclass builds are bad (generally).
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Re: Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

Post by TheShadowdove » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:10 pm

I'd be happy to see quivering palm made to work on up to same level creatures. It basically becomes useless in at level PvP.

In pve it may have some more uses against lower level monsters, but it is still only use per day.

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