Monk(especially unarmed) in a weird place?

[TheShadowdove]

I'd be happy to see quivering palm made to work on up to same level creatures. It basically becomes useless in same level PvP.

In pve it may have some more uses against lower level monsters, but it is still only use per day.

[Nevrus]

In pnp it's a week long remote activation bomb and incredibly fun. That would be an epic level 28 monk feature, make it 24 rl hours with a set and an activate console command and a boosted DC and ignore death immunity.

[TheShadowdove]

In pnp it's a week long remote activation bomb and incredibly fun. That would be an epic level 28 monk feature, make it 24 rl hours with a set and an activate console command and a boosted DC and ignore death immunity.

It was pretty intense when Master Kane used it on Artemis Entreri. Probably one of the coolest clashes of forgotten realms Characters, albeit intentionally brief.

[TheShadowdove]

How about making 30 monk gain kensai monk bonuses?

It basically is already forced to have of the negatives that kensai had.

It gives it some offense, some defense, and doesn't change much.

I'd still say cooldowns on abilities on top of this would make monks pretty viable.

Also, the strength or Dex increasing opposite of what your higher stat still seems like a great idea. Basically the opposite of how fighter's bonuses work.

[I_Am_King_Midas]

What If you gave monk gloves receive automatic bonuses without them having to craft them. Similar to fighters and their armor, helmet etc.

Then you could have a menu where they could pick damage type bonuses.

Or what if you let monks add some Dex or WIS to damage?

I like the idea of AB buffs as well. They get lots of attacks. It doesn’t matter a ton if they always miss though.

5e has some good ideas for monks too.

[Wings of Peace]

How about making 30 monk gain kensai monk bonuses?

It basically is already forced to have of the negatives that kensai had.

I like this idea but think the levels should be adjusted. Let characters with 27 monk levels have the option to be Kensai and give Defensive Roll at 25 Monk levels

[TheShadowdove]

How about making 30 monk gain kensai monk bonuses?

It basically is already forced to have of the negatives that kensai had.

I like this idea but think the levels should be adjusted. Let characters with 27 monk levels have the option to be Kensai and give Defensive Roll at 25 Monk levels

That would be a great way to handle it!

[Ork]

I like the idea of adding things to the Monk's feats & damage.

It might be useful to actually give +4 and +5 fist for free at levels 19 and 22 respectively and each + also adds to overall AB. Add Improved Evasion at 23 and Defensive roll at 26. Bonus to damage similar to the Barbarian but rooted in wisdom modifier.

[strong yeet]

High level (20+) fist monks are so ludicrously powerful in a PVP environment. With enough time, patience and spent gold on UMD supplies they can beat anyone. I don't mean this as hyperbole or as a boogeyman, it's just a simple fact and it always has been.

On paper they have mediocre or even poor stats, but the speed bonus means that, at the hands of a skilled player and properly built, they are borderline undefeatable.

I don't think buffing monks is really a feasible thing to do until Beamdog un-hardcodes the stuff they said they were going to (in this case, monk speed) and then you can take a more objective look at the class's whole. Until then I seriously doubt the health of changing the monk class in any way simply because the speed makes them far too powerful, if probably less than fun for everyone involved.

[I_Am_King_Midas]

High level (20+) fist monks are so ludicrously powerful in a PVP environment. With enough time, patience and spent gold on UMD supplies they can beat anyone. I don't mean this as hyperbole or as a boogeyman, it's just a simple fact and it always has been.

On paper they have mediocre or even poor stats, but the speed bonus means that, at the hands of a skilled player and properly built, they are borderline undefeatable.

I don't think buffing monks is really a feasible thing to do until Beamdog un-hardcodes the stuff they said they were going to (in this case, monk speed) and then you can take a more objective look at the class's whole. Until then I seriously doubt the health of changing the monk class in any way simply because the speed makes them far too powerful, if probably less than fun for everyone involved.

Naaa.. You can make builds they cant hit unless they get a 20 and that have super high damage reduction.

[TheShadowdove]

So monks are strong because they can run away, effectively giving both parties time to heal and possibly replace buffs?

I appreciate the argument but I don't see the overpowered aspect of classic monk speed. It makes them tougher to kill, but pretty much mediocre at poking and nothing else due to low attack bonus.

When a monk pops out to hit you, you hit them. They run away or stand their ground. Standing their ground you basically play tag and they tend to lose due to low ab. If they run you both have the same amount of time to heal because it doesn't take any less time to heal kit, potion up, or read a scroll as a monk.

I get being a bit envious of the ability to run faster. I don't play a monk and I get the speed envy whenever a high level monk runs by. I don't envy their lack of offensive ability, which is what I have as a result of not being a monk.

[Wings of Peace]

High level (20+) fist monks are so ludicrously powerful in a PVP environment. With enough time, patience and spent gold on UMD supplies they can beat anyone. I don't mean this as hyperbole or as a boogeyman, it's just a simple fact and it always has been.

On paper they have mediocre or even poor stats, but the speed bonus means that, at the hands of a skilled player and properly built, they are borderline undefeatable.

Being Borderline undefeatable is a lot different from being able to win every fight. If you're disengaging that much it means you don't have the offensive power to kill your opponent. You might be able to antagonize people in a guerilla fashion or win 1v1 duels but you're not going to be contributing much to a group fight in time to help your team if your battle plan is to stall for high rolls.

[strong yeet]

Monks are strong because they dictate the terms of the fight and nobody can do anything about that unless the monk messes up. They have little offensive power. Thus the line about "less than fun." Because it's very slow, and very frustrating to be slowly whittled down by something you have often little hope of having a tangible effect on.

[Hunter548]

There's a few people saying "But monk AB Is so low he needs a 20 to hit you!" Which is true. The problem is monks:

A) Can turn any fight into "let's see who rolls more 20s" because their AC is usually solid, and if they turn it into that sort of fight, they'll probably win: Monks have five attacks base, plus one for haste, plus one for flurry of blows; Unless you're dual wielding, the monk has more attacks than you. If you're dual wielding, the monk probably can hit you very easily without IE on.

B) Stunning fist helps a lot with that AB issue, as does their move speed, because they can more or less flatfoot you whenever they want. Flatfooting knocks a lot of AC off.


Edit: They also have epic dodge and you probably don't, so turning it into a battle of 20s is even more in their favor.

[Wings of Peace]

There's a few people saying "But monk AB Is so low he needs a 20 to hit you!" Which is true. The problem is monks:

A) Can turn any fight into "let's see who rolls more 20s" because their AC is usually solid, and if they turn it into that sort of fight, they'll probably win: Monks have five attacks base, plus one for haste, plus one for flurry of blows; Unless you're dual wielding, the monk has more attacks than you. If you're dual wielding, the monk probably can hit you very easily without IE on.

B) Stunning fist helps a lot with that AB issue, as does their move speed, because they can more or less flatfoot you whenever they want. Flatfooting knocks a lot of AC off.


Edit: They also have epic dodge and you probably don't, so turning it into a battle of 20s is even more in their favor.

None of that really matters outside 1v1 duels though. I don't care if the monk runs fast if I can just heal while they're gone. Even more to the point, if they can only hit me on 20s then I can ignore them and kill their friends in group fights which is where a lot of pvp happens. And if they're trying to stop me from entering an area because they're guarding it then running away isn't a very effective option.

[TheShadowdove]

Hunter is right in that is very possibly the case for the monk. Many do multiclass in an attempt to gain the most from more attacks per round. Definitely because investing too heavily into monk alone makes you less capable offensively the further you go.

However not all monks are invested so heavily into multiclassing. Not all monks have full ab class levels for an extra attack, not all monks are always hasted, not all monks have epic dodge.

The do tend to have high ac, if they build Dexterity and forwent damage. The ones who go strength have mediocre ac and average damage unless they multiclass build purely offensive. In which case they have alright damage and crummy defense.

Some builds definitely have this or that in order to make up for what pureclass monks lack. Not all monks are built that way. The ones who do make a gimmicky class less of a laughable noodle swinger.

[Ork]

I can see what Yeet & Hunter are saying. The movement speed impedes on correctly balancing the class. I've played a Monk into epics and the PvE experience is unequivocal hell. It'd be nice if it weren't so. However, the movement speed is ludicrous and probably needs to be capped at 50% (with an additional +50% on haste)

[Baron Saturday]

I certinaly wouldn't object to a monk path that sacrificed monk speed in exchange for increased damage or some of the other ideas here.

[Hunter548]

The problem is you can't touch monk speed right now. It's completely hardcoded into having monk levels.

[Baron Saturday]

Oh, I'm aware! It's just on a long-term wish list, right alongside haks.

[Ork]

Hit 'em with a permanent -naturewalk or whatever.

[Dr_Hazard89]

I'd be happy to see monks movespeed nerfed and capped.

[TheShadowdove]

I have never felt monkspeed was problematic. It's always been a part of the nwn experience that has been amusing really.

Kind of a reminiscent thing that translated over from PNP that the underpowered monks got as a fun gimmick.

The only powerful monk builds that were a concern took less levels in order to multiclass, causing them to be more manageably fast, and the pure Monks you could basically ignore in teamfights because they lost so much in exchange for movement and spell resistance.

I've had speed envy before because I often played against monks as opposed to as one. But I've never felt the innate feature threatening to the point of needing a nerf for balance sake alone.

If they ran away and healed after you whacked at each other, usually with them beating it once they were in danger and needing to heal/buff back up after a despell, you'd just heal at the same time and go about your business until they reemerged for round two. They can't heal or potion any quicker than another Character might, so you have the same amount of time in between engagements to refresh no matter how quickly they can get away.

I don't dislike the idea of giving them a toggle or path that exchanges movements peed for something like attack bonus or damage, and the roleplay reason being that they slow down when doing so to focus on X ability.

No, I have never felt monk increased movement speed made my builds obsolete, nor threatened my playstyle, or my ability to have fun. And I clocked thousands of hours of PvP time on roleplay servers. The fastest monks were never enough of a problem and were easy to shrug off until you killed all of their allies.

It's also a part of the forgotten realms universe that was always fun to read about. Master Kane running past dragons so quickly that they killed each other with their breath weapons? Beautiful.

[garrbear758]

- Make ki strike +4 and +5 free feats in epic levels

- Make empty body and wholeness of body on cooldown

- Change perfect self to 10/+x and scale +x up to +4 at level 27, +5 at level 30

- Add +1 ab every 5 levels starting at 10 while unarmed, for a total of +5 ab

- Add half of wisdom bonus to damage while unarmed if pure monk.

-Free uncanny dodge

-Defensive roll at level 24

-Get rid of stunning fist and quivering palm. They're useless anyways.

-Can't do anything with monk speed since it is currently hardcoded

I think this would put them in a good spot. It's a lot, but they are currently the weakest class in the game (Except possibly shifter)

[Scurvy Cur]

I can see what Yeet & Hunter are saying. The movement speed impedes on correctly balancing the class. I've played a Monk into epics and the PvE experience is unequivocal hell. It'd be nice if it weren't so. However, the movement speed is ludicrous and probably needs to be capped at 50% (with an additional +50% on haste)

Not even that is sufficient. They need to respect the 150% hard cap on move speed that all other classes have. My favored solution would be to set their bonus to 5% per 5 levels or 10% per 10, plus respecting the cap. Level 30 monks would then always move at hastespeed, but for everyone else the speed formula would look like: Non-hasted non monks < Non-hasted monks < hasted monks = hasted non monks.

Re: actual suggested buffs, they need to wait for the hardcoded move speed features to become not hardcoded. Hunter's touched on this somewhat, but it's worth elaboration.

Monk is garbage right now, in just about every respect save one:

Properly played, they force a fight into this weird space where everyone is rolling 2, maybe 3 attacks every 6 or 12 seconds, depending on whether the monk needs to flat foot the opponent. If they don't, they just back off a couple of seconds, and re-engage. If they do, they run around in circles until the end of the round after (at which point, NWN decides that, since nobody's rolled an attack in the last 6 seconds, the combat must be over). They then re-engage, probably win initiative, and get 1 round of attacks on a flat footed target.

Because they do this with high AC and epic dodge and their opponent probably doesn't have those features, the fight turns into a 30 minute ordeal where the monk has 3 1-in-20 chances of doing baby monk hit damage (more if they're fishing for sneak attacks with initiative rerolling). The opponent has a single 1 in 400 chance of doing anything in return.

Being Borderline undefeatable is a lot different from being able to win every fight. If you're disengaging that much it means you don't have the offensive power to kill your opponent.

None of that really matters outside 1v1 duels though. I don't care if the monk runs fast if I can just heal while they're gone.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand what happens. You never disengage for a significant period of time. You keep constant, steady pressure, and there's really not a limit to how long you can keep it going. The other guy carrying 1k healing kits just makes the win take longer. We're not talking about slow but sensible fights here. We're talking about 30 minute marathon fights where the correct play is to probably get behind a locked door.

Granted, they're basically non-contributors in largescale engagements, but people that play monks this way aren't really interested in contributing to a group.

On a final note, I see some people advancing the "but not everyone plays the class this way, and less cheesy playstyles really feel awful right now". I don't contest either point. They're both correct. Unfortunately, you can't buff the class without also buffing the cheese play and buffing the cheese play is an unconscionably bad idea. The class needs a rework from the ground up. It is, unfortunately, not something that can be done until the most problematic class feature gets unhardcoded.