Pseudodragons

[Richørd]

Hey , you there! Reader ... got something hot and spicy for you ...

*leans closer and whispers*
Pseudodragons should not have True Sight and it's legit broken.
*covers and hides for the upcoming assault of angry mages with pitchforks and torches*


Now how dare this incompetent human speak about our dear pseudodragons that way and for what reason should we weaken our dear little, red skykittens?
Well, I already have answers for that one. But let's establish some small facts, shall we?


You see, this server has implemented A TON of good balance changes. One of those is the way it handles the spell True Seeing.
True Seeing , as it works in the base game , is legit broken. I think we can all agree on that. It basically disables stealth based characters in a lot of ways and also eases the pressure in some areas of PvE content.
So it's basically fact that True Sight is a powerfull tool. One so powerfull that the team of Arelith decided that it was necessary to nerf the spell True Seeing into the ground ... and it's still extremely usefull.

Now let's ask ourselves again. Why nerf the little, red cluster of polygons that we know as the Pseudodragon and take away their True Sight?
1. It's a very disruptive feat. A mage with a pseudodragon as his chosen familiar could pull it out at any given time and waggle it in the face of any stealth based character like the giant middlefinger it actually is.
2. They never had True Sight in DnD. Unless I missed some official quote or article about them getting True Sight under specific conditions ... but I doubt that to be the case.

Now there are other reasons, but these play into the whole topic of "Familiar Inequality" and that is a topic for a whole different day.

[Nevrus]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/pseudodragon.htm

I agree with you on balance grounds, but they DO have 60 feet of Blindsense:
Blindsense (Ex)
A pseudodragon can locate creatures within 60 feet by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibration and other environmental clues). Opponents the pseudodragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the pseudodragon.

A level 1 wizard/sorceror class benefit should probably not be a better option than a level 5-7 spell which requires ESF: Divination to give a whole 24 seconds of the ability.

[One Two Three Five]

Non-Arelith arguments should be secondary. 1 wizard level giving, essentially, perma-ts, has always been pretty silly.

[Richørd]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/pseudodragon.htm

I agree with you on balance grounds, but they DO have 60 feet of Blindsense:
Blindsense (Ex)
A pseudodragon can locate creatures within 60 feet by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibration and other environmental clues). Opponents the pseudodragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the pseudodragon.

A level 1 wizard/sorceror class benefit should probably not be a better option than a level 5-7 spell which requires ESF: Divination to give a whole 24 seconds of the ability.

1. According to all the wikis I could find, the Pseudodragon was never a standard familiar to begin with. I found no articles about it being a familiar in 3e. In 3.5e they were obtainable as familiars through the feat "Improved Familiar" which required you to be a neutral good character and have the 7th arcane caster level. In 5e you literally had to befriend a Pseudodragon to be your familiar and then it had special rules added on top of it since it was not a standard familiar.

2. The Pseudodragon does not have "Blindsense" in 3e. It has "See Invisibility" instead, which refers to magical invisibility, not stealth.

3. Even if we went with the rules of 5e the Pseudodragon would not have True Sight. Instead it has "Keen Senses: The pseudodragon has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight, hearing, or smell."

Non-Arelith arguments should be secondary. 1 wizard level giving, essentially, perma-ts, has always been pretty silly.

Yes, non-arelith arguments are secondary. So let's just go with your Arelith argument of "perma-ts, has always been pretty silly."

[Noromical]

As a mage player, I might not have an issue so long as a few other changes are met
A: Disable stealth when knocking on doors
B: Disable stealth when stepping through certain transitions, such as into player owned quarters, and the owner of whom is literally staring at the door, because someone knocked and snuck in so they could eavesdrop into someone else's conversation.

[monkeywithstick]

I don't understand why you would not keep a true sight or two slotted if it worries you that much; it's a situation it is ludicrously good for.

[Hannibal]

did you get spotted
and then make this thread

[ltlukoziuz]

Also, if you're talking about OP familiars and not mentioning Pixie, it's a bit selective, no? I myself would like them to make more powerful familiars across the board, not just 2-3 picks.

I wouldn't mind if pseudodragons were slightly nerfed though, like -1hp/level and moving TS to 10th-15th level.

[monkeywithstick]

It's not a post about familiars, it's a post about.

1 wizard level giving, essentially, perma-ts, has always been pretty silly.

I mean, it's not a huge nerf, not really. You can get pretty long lasting TS by polymorphing into an umber hulk with 7 wizard levels. But that at least costs a spell slot and turning into an insectoid monstrosity for a bit, which isn't always practical.

Or you can cast true sight when you see suspicious door openings. Or after closing your quarter door to make sure you don't have any uninvited guests.

Stealth is easy enough to play round without a permanent no-stick on a level 1 class ability.

(I will concede Pixies warrant their own thread perhaps )

[Richørd]

did you get spotted
and then make this thread

I like how some people are trying to sneak personal attacks in here even though I try to stick to forum rules and keep this as professional as possible.

Yes, I wrote this thread after being spotted by a Pseudodragon.
No, I was not angered.
It was more a product of me being curious and sending a /tell to the owner of that Pseudodragon, asking if it was really that Pseudodragon that spotted me and asking about that familiar's spot and listen skills. They informed me about the True Sight feat that Pseudodragons get for free.

Also, if you're talking about OP familiars and not mentioning Pixie, it's a bit selective, no? I myself would like them to make more powerful familiars across the board, not just 2-3 picks.

I wouldn't mind if pseudodragons were slightly nerfed though, like -1hp/level and moving TS to 10th-15th level.

As I mentioned already : The balance of familiars is a topic for a whole different day. And while I think that balance between all familiars is an issue, I felt more inclinded to bring attention to Pseudodragons getting one of the strongest feats available in the game completely for free. A balance oversight that I could not find any extended discussions about and that is easier to fix for the wonderful Arelith team.

[Dirac]

Level 1 familiar negates 30 levels of character skills... From a balance point of view, this is a glaringly obvious imbalance.

[Baron Saturday]

Considering that perma-TS was recently removed from bat totem druids, removing it from pseudodragons would certainly seem to be in line with dev intentions.

[Hannibal]

welp
here's another personal attack?

pseudodragons are balanced imo
kill them, or don't sneak when they're summoned or the target has more than one friendly near their side (likely when they're at their most vulnerable)

rogues are supposed to be smart, not nerfing the world around them

[Richørd]

welp
here's another personal attack?

pseudodragons are balanced imo
kill them, or don't sneak when they're summoned or the target has more than one friendly near their side (likely when they're at their most vulnerable)

rogues are supposed to be smart, not nerfing the world around them

The intention is not to "nerf the world around them" , but rather to bring things in line with other changes on Arelith. I would like to see one good argument for why exactly Pseudodragons should have True Sight.

That would add more to the discussion than saying that you need to openly kill a mage's pet in the middle of a settlement while you are trying to be sneaky. Would not be the smartest thing to do, would it?

[One Two Three Five]

Considering that perma-TS was recently removed from bat totem druids, removing it from pseudodragons would certainly seem to be in line with dev intentions.

Bat totem lost perma-TS, dragonshape lost perma-ts, and the spell itself got nerfed. I'm guessing this was an oversight.

[Hannibal]

That wouldn't be the smartest thing to do, no. The allure of sneaking into someone's home (or safe area) should be kept, in my opinion. The whole enjoyment that comes from sneaking in the first place is the careful boundary that you're pushing, "Will I be caught?".

Mages are weak, fragile things to rogues. Taking away the true sight of the pseudodragons would just be taking away their counters furthermore. I personally believe that the Umber Hulk workaround is cheesy and that needs removal in some way. Because it can come in wand form and sold for a VERY CHEAP price.

Pseudodragons, on the other hand, are weak and easy to counter. When they are not summoned, your opportunity is nigh. When they are, well, go get a scrier. Sometimes opportunities are not always available. It's seizing those opportunities that creates the top-tier roleplay experience that Arelith provides.

[Lunargent]

Everyone picks pixie, the single most useful familiar there is.

If someone wants to gimp themselves out of a pocket rogue to pick something else, more power to them. They're not picked often enough to merit nerfing, really. This is a very niche situation and you just got unlucky.

But yes, let's remove another reason to pick anything but pixie for your familiar.

[One Two Three Five]

Trade out a pocket rogue for a pocket infinite anti-rogue.
Make familiar balance it's own thread, maybe? Assuming there's an actual problem with pixie, and it's not just a 'well this other thing is broken so our hands are tied' argument.

[Richørd]

That wouldn't be the smartest thing to do, no. The allure of sneaking into someone's home (or safe area) should be kept, in my opinion. The whole enjoyment that comes from sneaking in the first place is the careful boundary that you're pushing, "Will I be caught?".

Exactly.

Mages are weak, fragile things to rogues. Taking away the true sight of the pseudodragons would just be taking away their counters furthermore. I personally believe that the Umber Hulk workaround is cheesy and that needs removal in some way. Because it can come in wand form and sold for a VERY CHEAP price.

As someone hinted at above ... it is not a real counter. So let's say you see are aware of an agressive sneak nearby and you spot the stealther with your Pseudodragon that you currently control. So what? You get back out of your familiar and realize that you lost True Sight. Nearly useless for combat. And the Pseudodragons themselves do not deal enough damage to be a threat to force someone out of stealth, unless they are at a very low level compared to you and your familiar. Only thing they would enable you to do is to throw spells at where your little dragon is pecking at something, hoping to hit that sneaking character.

Them having True Sight from lvl 1 and onward is just very disruptive for any sneak related RP.

Pseudodragons, on the other hand, are weak and easy to counter. When they are not summoned, your opportunity is nigh. When they are, well, go get a scrier. Sometimes opportunities are not always available. It's seizing those opportunities that creates the top-tier roleplay experience that Arelith provides.

I basically answered to this part already.

[Lunargent]

Trade out a pocket rogue for a pocket infinite anti-rogue.
Make familiar balance it's own thread, maybe? Assuming there's an actual problem with pixie, and it's not just a 'well this other thing is broken so our hands are tied' argument.

The pseudodragon thing was a pretty popular tactic on old Arelith, mostly among necromancy school wizards who were forbidden divination. It is pathetically easy to avoid with corner sneaking, especially now that rogue has all kinds of buffs to sneak speed. We used to have to do it the old way, slowboating it unless we were monks! And we did it well! Darn kids! *shakes fist quite boomerishly*

It's relevant enough here because, until the pixie is nerfed or other familiars are brought up to snuff, pseudo should remain how it is. There would be utterly zero reasons to go non pixie, otherwise.

[Hannibal]

And it's that variation that we need as well. The familiars don't have unique skills enough to pick away from pixie as much as Pseudodragon.

[One Two Three Five]

Well, roleplay, for one. Saveless confusion bolts for two

Also I can remember maybe two dudes that did that pseudodragon thing regularly and I'm pretty sure they both got banned. For unrelated reasons, of course. I also remember all of one, maybe two characters being, ah-hem, specialized enough to take necromancy specialization.

All that said: Familiars aren't supposed to be animal companions anyway. That's why they got re-nerfed from the buckwild alterations of a few years ago in the first place. They shouldn't offer utility on par with having a permanent spell or an entire party member. You're right, there. But delaying any change because 'well, but this' would be like saying 'Wizards shouldn't get a bunch of custom epic spells until several of the other classes that need work get something or else no one will play anything but mages.'

A statement that is True, but not how Arelith has worked historically.

[Lunargent]

Also a pseudodragon's true seeing doesn't even reveal stealth in the same way true seeing on a player does (which is why TS on bat totem/dragonshape was removed). When you unpossess, the stealther does not remain revealed, so you have plenty of time to hide again or flee while they find you and cast TS on themselves.. which, if they have a pseudo in the first place, they may or may not have (necromancy school). It is really not that strong.

'Wizards shouldn't get a bunch of custom epic spells until several of the other classes that need work get something or else no one will play anything but mages.'

But this was true until the other classes received buffs to make them also interesting.

[One Two Three Five]

A statement that is True, but not how Arelith has worked historically

Yea dog. We aren't necessarily disagreeing (I am disagreeing that any significant number of people have spec'd necro, actually, but that's another argument), but I am of the opinion that waiting for other stuff to change before even discussing a different change entirely isn't a realistic way to have a discussion. It's a moot point. If the pixie needs changed? Make a thread titled 'Pixies' or 'Familiars,' instead of derailing from a fairly simplistic thread suggesting one thing be brought in line with others.

[WinkinBlinkin]

The debate isn't just about rogues vs mages in PvP. Spying generates lots of rp. No-one should have an effort free, permanent duration option that makes them immune to being spied upon.