Good and bad deeds - a mini-game for paladin and BG peity gain?

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strong yeet
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Re: Good and bad deeds - a mini-game for paladin and BG peity gain?

Post by strong yeet » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:09 pm

Opustus wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:56 am
our characters being cognisant of the fact that death is rarely permanent and how it might affect their courses of action.
NO!!!

They aren't. Do you also RP every monster, bandit or animal NPC you slay as an impermanent solution?

Of course not. Because that's ridiculous and silly.

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Opustus
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Re: Good and bad deeds - a mini-game for paladin and BG peity gain?

Post by Opustus » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:24 pm

Thanks Ork for bringing the thread back on track, but I don't personally mind digressions at all -- would've said if I had minded it.

And, strong yeet, I think there is a clear difference between NPCs and PCs which is perfectly understandable to take into account in some manner. NPCs are the thousands and the PCs are the hundreds who stand out from the mass as some exceptional individuals or otherwise persons of interest. That is how I've roleplayed the significance of PCs over NPCs at least. I don't think the comparison here holds water.
Characters: all poor babies suffering from neglect

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Ork
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Re: Good and bad deeds - a mini-game for paladin and BG peity gain?

Post by Ork » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:12 am

Opustus wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:24 pm
Thanks Ork for bringing the thread back on track, but I don't personally mind digressions at all -- would've said if I had minded it.
Yeah but like, go make a thread about that then too.
strong yeet wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:09 pm
Opustus wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:56 am
our characters being cognisant of the fact that death is rarely permanent and how it might affect their courses of action.
NO!!!

They aren't. Do you also RP every monster, bandit or animal NPC you slay as an impermanent solution?

Of course not. Because that's ridiculous and silly.
Also 100% this. There is a suspension of disbelief we as players have to figure in when playing with the "impermanent death" issue. If you're character thinks "I won't kill this guy because it won't solve anything" something is dreadfully wrong.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Good and bad deeds - a mini-game for paladin and BG peity gain?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:42 pm

Opustus wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:47 pm
Paladins and blackguards have to go through a lot of piety often due to using their divine feats. This can make things especially painful to non-war paladins/blackguards or lead to a chore of spamming Yarrow leaves if Hearth and home paladin/blackguards etc.

A way for paladins/blackguards to raise piety could be a mini-game that has them doing good and bad deeds for which they're rewarded in divine juice. This is a thread for thinking of features to this game! This is of course purely fictional if the devs aren't looking to make this kind of a change, but I thought it'd be fun to see what we could come up with. The mini-game would have the classes questing for good and evil deeds with other players on their journeys.

I'll start:

Smiter: For paladin, every smitten evil target grants piety. For blackguard, any smitten target grants piety, regardless of alignment.

Redeemer/Punisher: For paladin, using lay on hands on a wounded ally or against an undead grants piety. For blackguard, using inflict pain against an enemy or on your summon grants piety.

Cure/Poison: For paladin, recovering ability point loss from an ally grants piety. For blackguard, applying poison to a blade grants piety.
Whilst this is an interesting idea, I think one of my main concerns would be how to balence it?

The problem is that (in general terms!) Evil is Active, Agressive and Inclusive, but good is Passive, Reactive, and Exclusive.

In short Evil is 'Do what you want and start things.' But good is 'Thou Shalt Not.'

This is only of course a very rough guideline, there's lots of counter examples I'm sure, and I'm certainly not claiming that anyone not following the above modles is Doing it Wrong- but I'm speaking in very rough, steryotypical strokes here.

To use some of the examples you put down.


Smiter: The problem with this is what you're saying is that Paladins have a 50(ish?)% chance of getting peity from smiting something. Blackguards always have a 100% chance. To put it another way - whilst it's entirely reasonable that a Paladin would get Peity for smiting devils, why should a blackguard? If Devils are evil, and killing devils is good, then isn't a Blackguard commiting a Good act by killing them?
So let's say 'Blackguards only get peity if smiting good. But that's not fair either - as whilst there are 'good' npc monsters in the module, they're pretty rare and not always very obvious. That leaves the Blackguard at a huge disadvantage.
This touches on the 'exclusive/inclusiveness'. Evil characters are free to do evil things, yes. But they're also generally free to do 'good' things. I can't remember off hand a time where people have gone 'I don't think that Blackguard is evil enough'. But lots of times when Paladins have been scrutinised.
Now this isn't some sort of RP comment - I'm mostly looking at this from a mechanics perspective. Which is to say- if this were balenced we need to find things that are not only definatly 'good' actions for a Paladin, but also definatly 'evil' for a Blackguard.

Redeemer/Punisher: Ok - this is actually fairly good and balenced. People getting injured is roughly as common as monsters needing to be hurt. Especialy if the 'redeemer' aspect works on yourself. I think it still has some of the flaws of the other two points, but in a much milder fashion, so it's probably basicaly workable.

Cure/Poison: This touches on the whole Active/Reactive issue. Again Paladins are at a disadvantage, because they can only get their peity dependent on if someone has lowered ability points. So unless they themselves are somehow doing this, they've absolutly no control over how much peity they get. But the Blackguard can go and buy as much poison as he/she likes, and then just apply it on their blade over and over again for peity (price nonewithstanding). A blackguard has a lot more control over their ability to -do- something than a Paladin has over their ability to -react- to something, as a general rule.

Again, these comments are not to be taken as 'this is how you do alignment right!' far from it! Indeed the other concern I have about this suggestion is it would lead to just these sort of judgements.

This comment is more a concern of the mechanical aspects of the matter, to make sure that they (at least roughly) fit the alignment scale, whilst also being relitivly fair.
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Dr. B
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Re: Good and bad deeds - a mini-game for paladin and BG peity gain?

Post by Dr. B » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:33 am

In short Evil is 'Do what you want and start things.' But good is 'Thou Shalt Not.'
:o

I don't agree with this at all, even as a "rough guideline". It just plain doesn't capture the distinction between good and evil. Good characters (and good people RL) often recognize an imperative to devote themselves to active pursuits and projects that improve the world, not just to constrain their behavior. Evil characters, meanwhile, are happy to impose restrictions on others (and on themselves!) if it helps them get their way, or if it helps realize their twisted view of what the world should be like.

Nitro
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Re: Good and bad deeds - a mini-game for paladin and BG peity gain?

Post by Nitro » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:57 am

From a balance perspective, the amount of evil mobs on the server vastly outnumber the amount of good mobs. If a BG had to smite good to get piety they'd pretty much have to PvP for it.

Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Good and bad deeds - a mini-game for paladin and BG peity gain?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:21 am

Might be tangential, but I don't like the "on/off" switch of piety currently. It's kinda static and uninspiring.

Would be neat if it was gradient, and paladins/BGs would constantly require a high piety (above X) or suffer deleterious effects. High piety = good boi. Low piety = what kind of paladin are you. Exacerbates all the problems with the piety system, but it should have a greater effect.

Mechanical consequence fosters narrative consequence.

Also ascribe to the belief paladins are hardcore and its the weight of the in-game "hardcore-ness" that leads to this constant stress and poor mental health paladins can suffer.

Would love for a smite of paladin on a non-evil target to result in extreme piety loss. I also have no idea if the whole "CN masquerading as Evil" is still a problem on the server, but DMs can always get ban-happy about alignment folly.

The whole cycle of a paladin is

the stress of doing good - doing good - being Snuggle a Bugbear righteous (and right about it) - breaking under the stress of righteous - failing to uphold the creed/committing a wrong act - falling - despair - perseverance - the stress of doing good.
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