Skaldjard Conversation

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Ork
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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Ork » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:48 pm

Pakito wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:25 pm
Phew I'm getting confused reading this post. Are you talking about Faerun when you're referring to the mainland? Or do you mean Arelith? Because Arelith is not a mainland, it's an archipelago.
I think inferencing is a skill that allows a reader to distinguish that answer pretty easily. Let's not get nitpicky on semantics.

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:15 pm

AFAIK, Skal is very, very far away from the region (archipelago as Pakito put it) of Arelith. I believe Skal is closer to Luskan than it is to Arelith.

Correct me if I'm wrong though~!

According to Irongron in this post
Irongron wrote:It takes a long time because Skal is a VERY long way from the Arelith archipelago.


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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by monkeywithstick » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:18 pm

Is there a relevant point in there?

If you must, archipelagos vary in size. And the map has Arelith a long way from anywhere. Skal is not as far as I can tell shown.
Skal can be a long way from Arelith and still in the same archipelago whilst also being nowhere near Luskan.

This has no impact on anything that has been discussed.

As has been pointed out; it should be clear from context (i.e. that there is no Arelith server covering the continent of Faerun proper) what was meant. Attempting to derail the thread with geography debates is not really very helpful to anyone.
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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Pakito » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:28 pm

Sorry about that, mate. That cleared the confusion. Carry on.

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Kenji » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:08 am

I can agree with the sentiments regarding Skal that it isn't designed well for a place that is supposed to be for new players. It doesn't teach them how to use the portals, it doesn't teach them about the server rules, nor does it teach them about the courtesy or expectations that are different on Arelith. A lot of these have to be taught ICly (or tells) through conversations between PCs who have been to the mainland and the new players' PCs.

But then, Skal was never meant to be the same as Arelith, to begin with.

I must also chip in on the sentiments that Skal being different from the Arelith archipelago is what makes the experience unique. I am not saying I dislike the numerous on-going, neverending intrigues and faction/settlement conflict that are on Arelith right now. I just personally prefer Skaljard to be this disconnected place that caters to the lite RP rather than a full-blown storyline or always a place of heavy RP campaigns. (Still happens during the Summer times on Skal)

If I wanted to participate in all the heavy RP and complex interaction that is on Arelith, I would occasionally have my PCs visit there for a few heavily invested RP sessions. But if I simply wanted a mundane existence on the Arelith, I find it a lot easier to do so on Skal (during winter seasons anyway).

The predicament here is similar to what Icewind Dale is to Baldur's Gate when compared by folks who care only about the epicness and grandeur of a certain line of RP and storytelling as opposed to simple dungeon crawling experience or enjoying the light RP in an atmospheric environment. Each has their own merit and draws different players in for different reasons, there is nothing wrong with having access to both on the same PW!

Skal is a great place for new PCs, but maybe not for new players. Cordor should be advertised as a place for new players IMO. I'd rather see Skal become a place with a charm of its own than seeing it being condescended as a place for new players as if new folks joining in on the PW is a plague to avoid.

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Peppermint » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:53 am

I love Skal's aesthetic. It's downright gorgeous. And the quality of writing there is top notch.

But I'm going to be blunt. Sorry guys. But here it is.

Skal is a terrible starter destination.

I gave it a go pretty recently. Ran into several hurdles right away.

1. No introduction to more advanced systems. No messengers, nothing settlement-based, no portals. It's all very elementary. While I understand the desire to 'keep it simple' for beginners, these aren't the aspects that tend to confuse new players. It simply leads to a strange learning curve when transferring to Cordor (and less fun while on Skal, to boot).
2. Conversely, it's really difficult to find a lot of basic necessities on Skal. Try as I might, I couldn't so much as find a bastard sword for my character. When you're pitching your server to new players, it seems remarkably odd to force them to craft their weapons!
3. The areas are huge and sprawling--and not in a good way. There's tons of backtracking and empty space here. It makes for a really dull experience when traveling.
4. Speaking of empty, a lot of areas really are empty. I found myself killing deer just to finish writs, because there weren't any actual, you know, enemies.
5. Areas seem barely playtested, if at all. Weirdness abounds. Goblin camps spawn pairs of worgs and nothing but worgs (so, no goblins, I guess?) Bosses tend to waste their time casting useless spells (e.g. clarity at level 3?) only to promptly kill themselves with an inflict wounds spell.
6. Most creatures have way more hit points here than on the mainland. Targets I'd one shot in Cordor would take three to four hits to die in Skal. Makes for a very tedious combat experience.
7. Transferring to Guldorand when all is said and done is far from ideal. When a new player embarks to the main server, the last thing you want is for them to get stranded in a ghost town, probably with no idea where they're supposed to go. How depressing!

My laundry list of things to do for Skal?:

1. Trim down areas. Like, a lot. So much of them is wasted space.
2. Please remove all those locked gates. It's not clever. Fighting goblins one moment, and then zero-xp bats for ten minutes the next just to get to our destination is not fun. It's tedious.
3. Rebalance encounters. The whole island needs a pass. We can start by removing unnecessary spells and toning down some hit points totals.
4. Addspeedies, portals, etc. These are great learning systems.
5. Add a greater variety of items to starter merchants. This is a necessity for players starting out.
6. Transfer characters fresh off of Skal to Cordor, not Guldorand.

I wanted to like Skal, but I found it pretty miserable. I'm sorry. :(

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Conversations With Your Car Alarm » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:23 pm

My experience was not far off yours, above. I grew frustrated. The long walks, and back tracking were the mechanical or design ones. Though, I too, find it really f-ing pretty. But, the big one for me was the "rp-light" vibe that felt pervasive. When I came to Arelith I was schooled by players who were into story, and rp, and so forth. I felt like I was picking up on the style of the server, and learning it from cool and skilled people who cared about the server in some form or another. I feel like the best way for folks to get introduced to Arelith is to throw them into the deep end. People are smart and can handle it. I think that it's best to keep the servers connected, something I feel was a bad thing looking back at FL (as much as I loved it when it was popping). And not to split the player base into camps that are either into stories on Arelith or into adventure on Skal. I would prefer a more integrated interaction between Skal and the other servers, in the same way that the UD and the Surface have cross over.

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Elaetheus » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:39 pm

Skal's city is resource heavy and the village music theme becomes too repetitive and intrusive during intense RP.

That is about my only regret of Skal, in retrospective. Everything else is wonderful.

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Kenji » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:40 am

Hi there Peppermint, I am glad you gave Skal a shot! It is far from a great experience for players who aren't used to the island, and I agree with some of your suggestions, but some of the points you listed might need more time or player knowledge of the place before rushing to a certain conclusion.
Peppermint wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:53 am
1. No introduction to more advanced systems. No messengers, nothing settlement-based, no portals. It's all very elementary. While I understand the desire to 'keep it simple' for beginners, these aren't the aspects that tend to confuse new players. It simply leads to a strange learning curve when transferring to Cordor (and less fun while on Skal, to boot).
Messengers: It would be great if this could be added on Skal. Maybe make it only available to send those to whom are physically on Skal, and nowhere else. Speedy Hawk Messengers would be great, similar to Speedy Hins on the surface, Darrowdale Heralds from the keep, and Goblins in Andunor. Skal gets to have its own messaging services all the while it is not convenient enough to send them off the island. (That's where Master Illusionists are important here)

Portals: Like others have suggested, keep a few Skal-only portals for ease of travel, this should relieve some of the repetitive traveling nuances. Any travels in between mainlands and Skal will still require boats/-yoinks/attunement memes.

Settlement stuffs: I am half and half on this. On the one hand, I want Skaljard to be recognized as a place of somewhat importance, at the same time, on the other hand, I understand the need to push folks off of Skal and encourage them to set roots elsewhere, seeing that Skal is treated as a place for new players and PCs. I'm not sure how things will work out if Skaljard were treated as a full-blown settlement like Bendir, Brog, Myon, Cordor, and what not.
Peppermint wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:53 am
2. Conversely, it's really difficult to find a lot of basic necessities on Skal. Try as I might, I couldn't so much as find a bastard sword for my character. When you're pitching your server to new players, it seems remarkably odd to force them to craft their weapons!
I can give you a list of things missing on Skal, either from the merchants or the resources, mods can feel free to edit out any part or all parts that they may not like seeing as it may be considered FOIG material, but this is to show that Skal offers way more as a starter island in terms of items and resources.
1. Bastard Swords (craft/loot only)
2. Dwarven Waraxe (Craft only)
3. Adamantine nodes (Unavailable? Possible from "Rich Veins", but never saw that happen)
4. Emerald/Ruby nodes (loot/drop only, cut or uncut)
5. Eukelian Clay (Unavailable)
6. Thieves' Tools (loot/drop/craft only)
7. Edit: Scythe, Shuriken, Trident, and Whip (loot/craft only)

I might have missed a few more, but these are the ones that can't be bought/mined/gathered and must be either crafted or found in the loot chests on Skal. Mithril Dust (loot/drop only), Rogue Stone (loot/drop only), Star Sapphire (loot/drop only), Beljuril Gem (loot/drop only), Arjale (mined only), Mithril(mined/rewarded only), and even Dragon Hides (loot only) are available on Skal if a player knows where to look or ask ICly.

Barkskin/Zoo Potions (FOIG from a relatively hidden NPC on Skal), Greater Magic Weapon scrolls, basic bags, can all be purchased on Skal.
Peppermint wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:53 am
5. Areas seem barely playtested, if at all. Weirdness abounds. Goblin camps spawn pairs of worgs and nothing but worgs (so, no goblins, I guess?) Bosses tend to waste their time casting useless spells (e.g. clarity at level 3?) only to promptly kill themselves with an inflict wounds spell.
I believe the spawns are dynamic and relative to the level your PC is in. From your description, it seems the PC that was in the area is around lvl3 because I remember attempting to do the same thing while strolling around at lvl3. Things started spawning once I reach lvl4 (or was it 5?) on some of my PCs, though, so maybe give it more time. Otherwise, some of the points here are quite valid, it can be frustrating for folks who are planning on soloing the contents early on. Bosses casting Turn Undead and useless spells are kind of funny and weird at the same time.
Peppermint wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:53 am
5. Add a greater variety of items to starter merchants. This is a necessity for players starting out.
Just bastard sword, dwarven war axe, and tridents IMO, maybe even basic assembly templates, too. Everything else is covered.

Edit: I guess there are scythe, shuriken, and whips that are missing, too, but Skaljard's not a farming town or of Kara-Turan origins!
Conversations With Your Car Alarm wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:23 pm
But, the big one for me was the "rp-light" vibe that felt pervasive... I feel like the best way for folks to get introduced to Arelith is to throw them into the deep end... I think that it's best to keep the servers connected... And not to split the player base into camps that are either into stories on Arelith or into adventure on Skal. I would prefer a more integrated interaction between Skal and the other servers, in the same way that the UD and the Surface have crossed over.
I can not agree more on most of these, this is why I believe Cordor should really be advertised as a place for new players to start, and not Skaljard. Over time I passively give out emotes and remarks about how newcomers should sheathe their weapons or take off their wards and summons and what not (save for animal companions or anything nature-themed, it's Skaljard, not a bustling city where folks don't have wolves or hawks or horses around the place)

The interaction in between Skal and other servers are definitely still there, it may not be as obvious, but plenty of Arcane Tower mages have come to Skal for "research purposes" as well as major factions come to the island every summer for recruitment drives. I enjoy these occasional events only because it's not "in my face" all the time.

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by msterswrdsmn » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:53 am

Alright, my feedback on things to improve?

Setting
:arrow: Add a few signs around the outskirts advising people of putting away weapons and summons/etc. Cordor has this, and getting into the habit of putting these away while on Skal will help when transitioning to the mainland.

:arrow: Exit Portals: Put 'em at the end of some of the dungeons with a destiation-only portal near the town. It helps introduce players to the portal system and reduces strain on players. I've run into a lot of people who clear a dungeon, only to die traveling on the way back because they ran out of supplies.

This will also help with the travel times through the giant, sprawling areas.

:arrow: Maps: Something I learned when doing mapping for other games. Giant, sprawling areas sparse in detail are your enemy. Consider making the areas a little smaller or a little more detailed. I like the concept, but some of these maps are HUGE.

:arrow: Shop Screwiness
-There are a few missing weapons. Bastard Sword, whips, etc that were already mentioned.
-Healing kits! A single +1 healing kit is 37 gold. A stack of 10 is something like 475. If you're faced with a money crunch, your either buying one kit at a time, or buying them in bulk and buying less overall.

:arrow: Lack of Tutorial Npcs
If Skal is designed for newer players, it might be a good idea to have more of these. I honestly don't recall seeing any on Skal.

Spawns
Oh boy, theres a lot here.

:arrow: Fewer Onhit attacks
As soon as the granary and founders cave, you run into enemies with onhit attacks. And it never. Ends. Poison, disease, stat drain, level drain and paralysis are all thrown at you with onhit attacks from enemies before you even hit level 5. At best, these are inconvinent. If you're new to Nwn and/or Arelith? This is an absolute nightmare and a massive drain on your gold/healing supplies. There are actually more onhit enemies at low levels on Skal than Cordor.

:arrow: Beetles and Spiders
Easily the worst spawns not just on Skal, but Arelith in general. They don't drop gold. With one exception, they don't drop any materials. They have onhit disease or poison. They typically have a higher AB. Theres no reward besides XP, and the healing supplies you use keeping healthy cannot be refunded/replaced by looting things after they die. And they're all over the low level scene on Skal. Some of them are even stealthspawns, which i'm about to hit next.

:arrow: Too many stealthspawns
I feel like stealthspawns got abused when designing Skal. New players to NWN might not know how to build for detecting these, or straight up are unable to (mages, fighters, etc). And yet, like onhit enemies, these are everywhere. Hairy spiders, crag cats, Saytar archers, etc. This is a big issue for lower levels, as something attacking out of stealth gets a bonus to their AB, AND you get a flatfoot penalty (no dex and/or no dodge AC). Combined with things like the hairy spiders onhit poison, this seriously screws with you.

Seriously, They're all over. And the earliest stealthspawn I see on the mainland are the Wharftown Swashbucklers, which have a fairly low AB and are disarm bait with NO onhit poison/stat drain.

:arrow: Saytars
These got a special slot on my list. The archers are stealth spawns, have a higher AB, can/will shoot you from across the map, and tend to spawn in groups in areas that are only accessable with ranged attacks. The damage is also harder to mitigate reliably as their attacks have acid damage attached to them. Getting hit with double spawns of archers from different points of the map made this area extremely aggrevating,and I found the difficulty/payout vs resources expended just wasn't worth it.

:arrow: Kugen Crypts
These need to be toned down. Seriously. Theres what, 3 chests, 2 weapon racks, 1 armor rack and 2 sapphire deposits in there. The critters aren't terribly tough, and they reliably drop jewelery, gems, and scrolls. This area is so disproptionate with the lower risk/high payout it beats out even higher, supposedly "more rewarding" areas. I didn't find an area that even came close to the payout of this area on Skal. Not one. And I know i'm not the only one who noticed this, as i've seen characters with higher elemental summons were farming it for easy money.

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by monkeywithstick » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:49 am

One thing we noted that was missing from the merchants there was bracers, basic bracers. It's not a huge deal per se as you can get gloves BUT the enchantment options are different between gloves and bracers.
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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:19 am

From viewtopic.php?p=166116#p166116
Eters wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:44 pm
Skaljard is supposed to be a starting Isle for those new to the server, to have a secluded place where to get used to the way the server works, and how RP is properly conducted, a way to prepare them for what they will face in Arelith without being overwhelmed, but of late, that overwhelmness has been going to them.

Skal as a place is supposed to be secluded from the rest of the Isle during Winter, yet one summoner is all it takes to bring masses and masses of epics into Skal at everytime of the year, this made it now become like a resort, where people go spend "vacations" bullying around lowbies without any roleplay value all the year long. The fact that Skaljard can't be sailed to in winter presents literally nothing to players since it really doesn't stop them from going there, merely a small hindrance.

What I wish to propose is that since Skal as a whole place has 0 portals , and people don't really make use of portal lenses in the Island other than go to portals to Arelith, that the ENTIRE island becomes warded against portal lenses and yoinking.

I would also wish to propose reducing the time needed for players to sail from Arelith to Skal to be FURTHER reduced to 3 or 2 months only per IG year, rather than an entire 5-6 months.

Skal is supposed to be a secluded ice land in the far north of the isle, a small village and nothing more, rather than a battlefield for large numbers of epics to dance around, causing the new players / lowbies to be railroaded into RP they find nor interesting, impressive or enjoyable.
I really like the idea behind this suggestion. I, too, find it odd that a bunch of epics wage their personal wars in the small settlement of Skaljard. You know, that place where 90% of the players are lowbies.
Recruitment advertisements are fine, especially since it can give new characters something to do when they get to Arelith. But to see two factions battle over a town neither faction has any authority over is a bit silly, imho.


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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by marine436 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:01 pm

I also Agree with this and was apart of my original suggestions !

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by McDuck » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:25 am

I really like the idea behind this suggestion. I, too, find it odd that a bunch of epics wage their personal wars in the small settlement of Skaljard. You know, that place where 90% of the players are lowbies.
Recruitment advertisements are fine, especially since it can give new characters something to do when they get to Arelith. But to see two factions battle over a town neither faction has any authority over is a bit silly, imho.
[/quote]

This happends more often then you might know. I got booted by DM for Being ther as an EPIC, wile all i did was help the new players out on a day to day base, Tons of questions awnserd and confusion lift up (example player buys up all the housing so he can give it to those whe wher longer ther, Loved the intention behind it but was actualy wrong) Skal has been in my Experience. A joke, The new player flock nice. But i noticed IG, That they are still moostly unaware of what the rules are or even aware that it was a roll play server.
But EPIC's That came after me me abuse the place for the PVP Urges, That is the feeling i got now. And what i hear IC makes me worry some times. And when i see certain posts on the forum here *whistles* I am shocked realy. I think its also up to US PLAYERS, to feel the new players welcome here. And not some boddy bag they can hit. (wichs sorry to say boy's and girls, sinds i am back i only here a month on the server i hear That these kind of thing happening on skall A LOT and people afraid IC AND OOC to do somthing about it)

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Nitro » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:49 am

Making skal more isolated won't stop those looking for an easy place to kick around lowbies stop going there. If anything it'll make them more tempted to go there because it'll be harder for opposing epics to come stop their power-trip.

Either make it completely closed to the outside world so epics can't get in at all, or open it up entirely so people can travel to/from it like the rest of the isle. There's no real reason to have the proposed "New player" area cut off from the rest of the playerbase, that just leads to a culture clash when they move on to the rest of the isle, or an odd trend where they just stay there without progression instead of going on to the rest of the isle.

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:52 am

I feel my point was glossed over.

Skal is not fun for some new players. I recently was able to encourage someone to give Arelith another try after they quit due to the Skal experience. They started a new character in Cordor and are having a really good time. Please, don't force new players to start there. It isolates them from their friends, and for people coming to this server for its rich politics/intrigue and player-run atmosphere, it is the exact opposite of what we want. I straight up do not care if high levels are there or not, that isn't a problem for me. I do not like the RP there.

I find it upsetting seeing all of these comments suggesting to force all new players to the server there, and to make it so you can only leave 2 months of the year, and prevent anyone from ever coming in there. That is really unfun sounding. Please, no. Maybe you enjoy the experience, but it's not what I'm on this server for.

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by monkeywithstick » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:58 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:52 am
Skal is not fun for some new players. I recently was able to encourage someone to give Arelith another try after they quit due to the Skal experience. They started a new character in Cordor and are having a really good time. Please, don't force new players to start there. It isolates them from their friends, and for people coming to this server for its rich politics/intrigue and player-run atmosphere, it is the exact opposite of what we want. I straight up do not care if high levels are there or not, that isn't a problem for me. I do not like the RP there.
In fairness they are not forced to start there it is a recommendation. Removing the recommendation would be a short dialogue edit. Changing the recommendation to imply the area is "RP-lite" would be just as easy.

I think in many respects the fundamental question is what is wanted from Skal? As I see it...

If it's wanted as a new player area then:
1) It doesn't prepare folks for the mainland RP style or a number of mechanics (Settlement leadership, speedies, assassin's guild contracts etc.)
2) It in some cases is putting off people who start there and would have preferred the mainland. (See culture shock)
3) Cutting it off behind the ice traps people there for a long while OOC if they hit the level cap at the wrong time (hit level 17 just after the ice closed for example).
4) There are some odd holes in the local merchants inventories.

If it's wanted as a settlement within the server's larger game world then:
1) The low level cap on writs (and no access to epic content) is quite limiting to players who choose to remain there
2) The cutting off behind the ice and missing supply options is an interesting mechanic that serves to make it more isolated.
3) The difference in RP style makes it a bit of a fish out of water compared to the rest of the server
4) The lack of politics etc. makes it easier and less time consuming to get invested in.

If the stated intent is for the former, then the implementation at present misses the target in my opinion.
And for the latter it's not bang on either.
It feels a bit like we're trying to do both and as a result we are failing at each of them in turn.

I see a number of options:
-We can remove the level caps. This makes it an awful starter area (at least insofar as a starter area implies progression to the non-starter area)
A lot of Dev work to add in content.

-We can increase isolation. This results in a situation whereby whoever gets in with a high level faction first has a large advantage in controlling the Skal narrative. Not a huge problem at present because low level nature means the resources gained aren't really worth it. But is worth bearing in mind for the combination with other options.
Minimal Dev work (I think) just lower the number of months where shipping in is possible and maybe add yoink wards etc.

-We can add in the political angle. This loses the low investment RP angle somewhat, but probably makes it more of a preparation for Arelith as a whole.
Dev work to add in speedies, a voting system etc.

-We can decrease isolation. This increases exposure to the mainland RP style, makes it easier for new players to integrate but also will quite firmly destroy the RP-lite atmosphere. It essentially also removes the level caps by allowing players to go train in baator/the abyss/lowerdark like everyone else.
Minimal Dev work to remove the timer on the boats, maybe add boats returning the other way. More work if we want to add Skal to the portal network.

-Just remove the "recommended" text from the starter area. This will possibly lower overall Skal population with time as more new players/characters roll up on the main server, but allows the flavour of the settlement to last unless it becomes badly depopulated.
Dev work = a dialogue change.

In short we cannot have our cake and eat it. Before we "fix" Skal. We need to work out what Skal is supposed to be, not all of these options are a good idea in concert. And in my opinion the big issue we have thus far is we've tried to do too many partially conflicting things with the locale. It also means that no matter which way the decision falls it is potentially going to marginalise some folks invested in a different aspect of Skal; that sucks, but hopefully it's a lesson learned about clear design goals for next time...
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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:04 pm

I'm all for better clarity for new characters and players when they get to the starter area dialogue.

That's about as much change I am interested in. It's not up to me or us, through, it's up to the devs.

However, the last thing we want is for Skal to turn into Cordor 2.0. I don't know, I can't speak for everyone, but if that's what you want, why not just stay in Cordor in the first place?

As an above post mentioned, no one is forced to be in Skal.
But for those who enjoy Skal for what it is, why would you try and take that away from them?


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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Nitro » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:14 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:04 pm
But for those who enjoy Skal for what it is, why would you try and take that away from them?
The same argument could be made for anything that isn't working as intended but one or more people enjoy. They might lose entertainment from the bug they're exploiting being fixed, but ultimately it's for the betterment of the server at large.

That said, I don't think I've seen any suggestions to turn Skaljard into Cordor 2.0, so hyperbole aside I don't think you need to worry overly much.

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by monkeywithstick » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:53 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:04 pm
I'm all for better clarity for new characters and players when they get to the starter area dialogue.

That's about as much change I am interested in. It's not up to me or us, through, it's up to the devs.

However, the last thing we want is for Skal to turn into Cordor 2.0. I don't know, I can't speak for everyone, but if that's what you want, why not just stay in Cordor in the first place?

As an above post mentioned, no one is forced to be in Skal.
But for those who enjoy Skal for what it is, why would you try and take that away from them?
It's not about making Cordor 2.0.

I tried to outline a number of issues with either case. As I already stated, I think whatever outcome occurs there will be a little bit of disenfranchisement. That is regrettable.

As for it being a decision for the Devs, of course it is. 'We' I used to refer to the community, who, in my experience the Dev's listen to as best they can.
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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Drexciyian » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:30 pm

Hi there, I've been playing on Arelith for the first time this week and I'm a newish player to nwn, I've only played half of the OC and none of the expansions and played years ago for a very short time on a NWN PW.

While I enjoyed the short time I played here I don't think Skaldjard is new player friendly at all and had to spend a lot of time digging on these forums and asking questions on discord but I would rather have been able to discovered this basic stuff in-game. From what I have read Cordor seems to be more of a place for newer players to nwn.

O yeah and the bastard sword thing, I weapon focused for them only to discover there were none for sale so I had to de-level(after much digging on the forums) to switch my focus :lol:

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Irongron » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:44 pm

This has been one of my favourite topics lately, with a lot of worthwhile insight and helpful suggestions.

First a bit of background for those that don't know:

- This server was created to offer our players a new experience to go with the EE purchase. At the time I felt that the lack of new content was a severe shortcoming of EE, and for our community at least, I wanted to rectify that.

- Skal was made at a time of having a 96 player cap on both the servers. I could only guess at how many people would buy EE and play Arelith, and needed to create something that could take the extra strain. Hundreds of new players (who were also new to Arelith RP and systems) running around Cordor could have caused a great many problems, especially for DMs.

- Arelith (Main) was created over 15 years, Skal was made in around 8 weeks. I still consider that we even got it ready a huge acheivement.

- At the time of creating Skal (see old forum posts) I foresaw a time when it may no longer be required; when player numbers would drop again. I discussed then what I thought we may do with it down the road.


So...

All of that being said I found this to be a great success. I had some great times playing there in the months after EE release. There were dozens of players in the village at any one time, and large parties would get together for RP and exploration before sailing to the mainland. I saw so much fantastic RP and stories, and time and again got told by some players that they didn't just like it, but much prefered it over the politics and epic playground of the main server, with some telling me they would never leave.

But that was then, and this is now. Skaljard and its surrounding dungeons was a great location for large parties, and for those new to NWN to meet before diving into the main server, but for near solo play the dungeons are often overwhelming, and the isolation oppressive.

Removing it as a recommended option makes sense, instead advising people that the Skal start is suited chiefly for party play, with a focus on action.

I'm unhappy about the epic holidaymakers really, and curtailing them furher could make sense.

I haven't decided on its fate, but will do so soon. In the meantime here are a few of my own thoughts.

First, I absolutely do not want to tie it into the main political landscape of the main server, with portals/elections etc. Its not designed for that, and for many can be a welcome retreat from that world. Numbers on Arelith have not continued to climb, and to spread the players out yet further at this stage would be unwise.

Skal is essentially an npc base + dungeons, still great for starter play, but also equally suited to epic levels if the spawns were adjusted.

For a while we were seeing 50+ people there at any one time, recently its less than half that number (as players have naturally migrated to the 'main' server). Short of a surge in EE sales I don't see that trend being reversed, so something should definitely be changed. Otherwise we will see a few years of 'what do do about Skal?' threads.

People do enjoy playing there, and a significant amount still choose it as their prefered starting location, but if you can't get into a party its likely to feel pretty barren at times.

With the player cap removed it and Sibayad also no longer need to be on their own server, but it does help with performance, and I will likely leave it is where it is for now in case we see another surge.

I find I have to put aside my feelings somewhat when considering game design, for I really do love Skal for what it is, nevertheless it does come down to numbers. They haven't fallen so much, but the proportion of new characters has, and I don't think it is a good design choice to separate them (meeting chracters of the same level can be demanding). I haven't made any decisions, but I do suspect there are only 3 viable options.

1. Retool Skal to be entirely epic.

There can be a lack of epic content on Arelith and this would have the effect of lessening epic presence on the main server, which may be a good thing, especially if it targets those more interested in the grind than faction RP.

2. Retool Cordor & Brog to be mid level

Everyone starts in Skal. They can then make their way to the mainland whenever they're ready to hit the big cities. This would really allow low levels to meet up easily, and begin an association with each other than can continue as they migrate to the mainland. I think this would offer a great deal of cohesion and also allow players and DMs to take off the 'kid gloves' when operating in the cities.

3. Leave it as it is, but no longer recommend Skal to new players.

I'm not sure this really solves the problem of spreading out new players, but its also true that changing it now could be jumping the gun. EE is still in early days really, and we'll likely see new content and perhaps modules that see numbers rise again. Having in Skal in place really does allow us the space to have 500 people playing Arelith, and I do still think that's a viable goal.


Of the above 3 I think all could be good options really, as they all offer something.

Definitely interested to hear more insight on this thread.

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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Ebonstar » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:46 pm

even though still on vacation, I would love to offer something

Skal seems imo to be the old west while arelith main is the civilized east

people drove the small towns when land was massive territories and travel/communication took days

when the western wildness met the ever moving civilization, you would get stares and off flavor comments of the western folk being savage and primitives compared to the large eastern cities and their denizens of pomp and circumstance

those of the west simply adapt and learn when facing a new challenge, whether it be finding huge stone cities like Cordor.

Skal is the more laid back, noone trying to control anyone simply because the wilderness you live by survival. But this comes in many ways.
You dont take your pet wolf into town because city people see a wild animal not your long time friend.

Just like you shouldnt try to go and buy up the whole territory just because you can in your fancy suit and tophat, because the small town people will see you as a threat to their way of life


I like the idea of Skal staying wilderness with some portals just on Skal and cancelling yoinks and lensing in. Everyone needs a time to live in the wild west, and some always stayed or moved when civilization came calling.

Skal is Areliths wild west, and those who wish too can always buy a new set of clothes and set off the big city
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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Basementfellow » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:23 pm

2. Retool Cordor & Brog to be mid level

Everyone starts in Skal. They can then make their way to the mainland whenever they're ready to hit the big cities. This would really allow low levels to meet up easily, and begin an association with each other than can continue as they migrate to the mainland. I think this would offer a great deal of cohesion and also allow players and DMs to take off the 'kid gloves' when operating in the cities.
I'm all for it, personally.
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Re: Skaldjard Conversation

Post by Nitro » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:42 pm

Don't much care about the rest, but this:
2. Retool Cordor & Brog to be mid level

Everyone starts in Skal. They can then make their way to the mainland whenever they're ready to hit the big cities. This would really allow low levels to meet up easily, and begin an association with each other than can continue as they migrate to the mainland. I think this would offer a great deal of cohesion and also allow players and DMs to take off the 'kid gloves' when operating in the cities.
Strikes me as a profoundly bad idea. Skaljard is a very unpopular starting location among veteran players. The XP to difficulty ratio is worse than any other starting location on the server. There's a lack of vendors selling goods, there's no high level players to provide essential services like enchanting, mundane crafting, magical crafting and long-term plots/factions to get involved with right off the boat. Not to mention that once you start there you might be stuck for several IC months which if it coincides with you reaching the level cap of the isle, sucks some major snugglewuggle.

If Skaljard was to be a unified starting area for all surface characters, it would pretty much have to be reworked to be Cordor 2.0.

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