Exile should be time limited

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Alox
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:23 pm

Exile should be time limited

Post by Alox » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:04 pm

Exile seems to mostly be used to assert your political victory over your opponents.

In lieu with PvP rules I think it should be a time limited thing. If the political battle resumes after the time limit is up, well hello new exile period. If it doesn't, play nice and don't exile them straight away again.

Enemy of the state declarations should NOT be a mechanical "no entry to area" thing. Goblins are not welcome in Cordor, they are permanently enemies of state, but they are not mechanically hindered from doing so---the RP can happen.

Permanent bans should be to disruptive players, or players that are unable to keep the conflict IC---and then by DM discretion only.

Seven Sons of Sin
Posts: 2184
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:40 am

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:50 pm

Exile should have scaling costs and time limits.

Settlements should have "three zones" (the borderlands, the town/city, the "throne room"). To take Cordor for example, the Northern Farmlands could would be the "borderlands", the Government District/Cultural District would be the "town/city", and the Council Building could be the "throne room" (or whatever is considered the seat of political power).

Settlement leaders can designate the zones a person is exiled from. Obviously, the Big Bad Evil Vippin gets all 3, but maybe the first time necromancer gets just the "borderlands." Costs and time limits can scale differently, but there's also a middle-ground where Devs can implement "secret paths" that allow those who are exiled to skirt around their exiled zones.

Or something.

You're in that exiles are too much of a blanket problem. Time limits are a good idea. There needs to be extremes, but the problem is that exiles are mostly an on-off-switch whereas they need to be an on---------------------------------------------------off switch.
Previous:
Oskarr of Procampur, Ro Irokon, Nahal Azyen, Nelehein Afsana (of Impiltur), Vencenti Medici, Nizram ali Balazdam, (Roznik) Naethandreil

User avatar
Blood on my Lips
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by Blood on my Lips » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:59 pm

I have always felt that exiles should expire with the term of the Mayor/Chancellor that issued the exile. I've seen exiles that existed for so long that the leadership didn't even know why people on the exile list were exiled.

User avatar
Queen Titania
Community Manager
Community Manager
Posts: 3370
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:44 pm
Location: The Seeliecourt singing with Tinkerbell

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by Queen Titania » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:03 pm

Rather than putting in time limits, place more things in the world that share the cost of resources, that a settlement leader can do. Force them to pick and choose: Do they focus on keeping their political enemies, troublemakers, or criminals out? Do they focus on making their citizens happy? Are they stingy with their economy instead? We already added storage, and likely more things are to come.

The stinginess of the max exiles each place could have could also be stricter if it gets out of hand.

I don't think three zones work very well for other settlements. An alternative is to have exile costs increase after the first and second year. This way long term exiles have a greater bearing cost, and are kept to use for the worst of the worst.

A second alternative is to have two tiers, unwelcome and exile, in which the unwelcome is removed from an area after six minutes per game day, allowing them to visit briefly, but then be forced to leave.
Please don't feed my sister.

User avatar
flower
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:16 am

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by flower » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:07 pm

Cancel exile, give leaders to put persons into jail from day up to seven days.

I can hear you crying now.


The exile is the only restrictive measure leader of settlement can také to protect itself or fixtures or citizens from troublemakers and people who believe because they can kill others in pvp are untouchable (and yes, doing all under rules at the same time).

Yes, abuse can go both ways. First advice if you dont like being exiled: dont make troubles in the streets, it is IC consequences.

If settlement leader could put person into a jail for a time or into a mining colony and guy would be free after mining out X resources, then yes lets get rid of exile fully.

User avatar
Wytchee
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by Wytchee » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:11 pm

Cordor has characters constantly trying to circumvent (read: cheese) their exiles, by various means. It's not uncommon for PC exiles to linger about the farmlands/outskirts looking for a fight with PC guards.

The exile system already has a cap and an effective expiration date given that new threats are constantly arising and settlements have to make decisions on who to keep exiled and who to drop when new, bigger threats arise.

Cordor's exile list is filled with murderers, and it already has to choose between exiling its literal enemies or letting murderers, etc. roam the streets freely. The exile system is a way to utilize the NPC guards when no PC guards are around, which is often.
Current character: Abigail Duskwood

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6565
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:26 pm

I wouldn't be against a time limit on exiles. Maybe after one or two IG years?

I am VERY glad there is a cap on exiles. It might be worth considering making that even smaller? I'm unsure. I'm mostly with Titania though I'm not so fond of the 'unwelcome' option as she describes it. But that's my tastes.

Whatever the decion on exiles, as with everything else, there has to be a balence.

Between giving settlment leaders some power to remove the worst of The Worst out of their settlments , and yet discouraging exile to be used for anything BUT the worst of the worst.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by BegoneThoth » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:03 pm

Some exiles are perma. I would not be surprised to learn some people have been banished for real life years.

Is this intended? Fair?
\

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by Cortex » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:10 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:03 pm
Some exiles are perma. I would not be surprised to learn some people have been banished for real life years.

Is this intended? Fair?
That first requires a character to exist for real life years, which isn't a good sign most of the time.
:)

Sab1
Posts: 1269
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:44 pm

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by Sab1 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:10 pm

Make exiles cost monthly resources instead of every year.

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by BegoneThoth » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:12 pm

Cortex wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:10 pm
BegoneThoth wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:03 pm
Some exiles are perma. I would not be surprised to learn some people have been banished for real life years.

Is this intended? Fair?
That first requires a character to exist for real life years, which isn't a good sign most of the time.
If people roll because of an Exile, that's no good. It's worse when you have no avenue to contest it. Remember we have some settlements that go months and months without a change in leader, exiles as well.

Is this good? Healthy? The only recourse of a banished toon is to wait for the next elected leader? Which may never come?
\

TimeAdept
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:18 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:03 pm
Some exiles are perma. I would not be surprised to learn some people have been banished for real life years.

Is this intended? Fair?
Yes. I see no issues with it.

If your character has been so heinous as to get banned from literally every single settlement in the server with no chance of change regardless of regime or ruler, your character likely deserves it, or has had such a campaign waged against them that your opponents deserve the victory. And even if this happens to your character, somehow banned from literally every single place in the entire server, if you're an Outcast you can still utilize the Hubs and if you're not an Outcast you can use Sencliff and the Crow's Nest.

There's nothing wrong with exiles. The most "difficult" ones to get around, Cordor and Andunor, can 1: be easily bypassed and 2: requires you to be banned from two separate settlements and even then you still have the hub, port, and all neutral grounds.

This doesn't even count that Bluff gets you around city exiles with absolute and complete impunity, whenever you want. A bit harder now that the NWNX names is busted so you can't truly disguise yourself, but the skill itself does beat mechanical exiles.
Rather than putting in time limits, place more things in the world that share the cost of resources, that a settlement leader can do.
This should be the takeaway here. Give settlements way more that they can do. Let them expand warehouse storages for a cost. Let them up NPC sale prices for a cost. Attract rotating randomized merchants to their city a la Andunor's Hub for a resource/gold cost. Give them ways to interact with each other that utilize resources/gold with each other. The recent changes are great, and encourage the expenditure of the hundreds and hundreds of thousands, and millions of resources that some cities have.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by Cortex » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:24 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:12 pm
Cortex wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:10 pm
BegoneThoth wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:03 pm
Some exiles are perma. I would not be surprised to learn some people have been banished for real life years.

Is this intended? Fair?
That first requires a character to exist for real life years, which isn't a good sign most of the time.
If people roll because of an Exile, that's no good. It's worse when you have no avenue to contest it. Remember we have some settlements that go months and months without a change in leader, exiles as well.

Is this good? Healthy? The only recourse of a banished toon is to wait for the next elected leader? Which may never come?
It was an implication that for an exile to last for over a year, the character needs to be really old and has likely been recyled half a dozen times and/or has become a fixture.

I can't think of any character whose exile lasted for that long that didn't deserve it for that matter.
:)

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by BegoneThoth » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:30 pm

I was using it as an example. Not saying it wasn't warranted.

The question I have is how much good rp is generated when someone is on a list for months or years with absolutely no effect on the settlement aside from one banishment slot taken up?

We need some kind of system here to allow interaction because a name on a list is nothing.
\

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by BegoneThoth » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:40 pm

I also fully admit I do not know what should be instituted to encourage.... Some interaction. Wiping all exiles on election would be real horrorshow, but not what a logical society would do.

I like the idea of "timed" bans, where they get overturned, but feel that one ig year is too short, 3 years would be long enough for characters/situations to change and evolve.

I also like the idea of banishments draining city resources. Half the total number of exiles, and allow additional banishments at an increasing amount of weekly resources drained from the treasury.

Just my thoughts.
\

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by Nitro » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:19 pm

"Why is ogrush babyeater the serial child-murderer walking our streets again?"
"Oops, forgot to exile him again after his paperwork got lost for the fourth time"

User avatar
flower
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:16 am

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by flower » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:30 pm

From the posts here it is like people trying to imply everyone got exiled in unjust manner and never deserved it fully.

I wish we could live in an ideal world, where PC guards would be active 24hrs a day and could interact with criminals, where criminas would not ignore guard npcs when causing riots (as i remember a guy murdering like 10 PC guards before my character put him down right in front of guards).

Where people who play exiled characters would have a sense and once many PC guards took effort to kick them out of city, they would not just wait out till people go offline to return and cause mess and havoc, so they never needed to be exiled in first place...

...but such is an ideal world not real life Arelith we play daily, sadly.

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:47 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:50 pm
Exile should have scaling costs and time limits.
Exile should absolutely have costs. NPCs have to look out and ensure exiled persons don't enter the city. This should cost directly from the city coffers. The longer the exile, the higher the cost.


User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by BegoneThoth » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:37 pm

Nitro wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:19 pm
"Why is ogrush babyeater the serial child-murderer walking our streets again?"
"Oops, forgot to exile him again after his paperwork got lost for the fourth time"
DM's have demonstrated they are more then willing to intervene and 'resolve' consistent bad behavior. Awful conduct is not something to be 'handled' exclusively by the exile system.

The situation you mention is a non-issue.
\

TimeAdept
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:48 pm

Being a consistent villain/antagonist is different than 'awful conduct', one warrants an exile the other warants a ban.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by Cortex » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:06 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:40 pm
I also fully admit I do not know what should be instituted to encourage.... Some interaction. Wiping all exiles on election would be real horrorshow, but not what a logical society would do.

I like the idea of "timed" bans, where they get overturned, but feel that one ig year is too short, 3 years would be long enough for characters/situations to change and evolve.

I also like the idea of banishments draining city resources. Half the total number of exiles, and allow additional banishments at an increasing amount of weekly resources drained from the treasury.

Just my thoughts.
Without dropping any name but using a "real" character as an example...

Xyz the Character is exiled from 123 The Settlement. He has been so for a long long time and still is.

His crimes include (if they are true or not is irrelevant): Sedition, mass murder, treason, manslaughter, tax evasion, and slander. He opposes the current rule to this day, even if nonviolently, and theorically he could be accepted as a respectable member of society. But he won't be, because he's done a lot of things that would warrant him being executed, except you can respawn, so life time exile is the next best thing.

With the above example out of the way, you can also permanently exile people whose crime was saying he did unspeakable things to the leader's mom, on top of running against them in elections. Settlement dependant, to say that can be a severe crime, and theoretically speaking warrant life time exile. It is where it begins to become a case by case basis, the current leader may know something about his opposition, such as being a cyricist (because everyone you don't like is a cyricist), barking it to other people will only do so much if they truly believe in that person's innocence. You will not lift the exile of someone you know is a vile individual with evil ambitions for leadership. Now, if that person is someone you just don't like and really wish was a cyricist so you could justify your loathing for him (other than insulting your mother), a life time exile can be boring and just a simple shut down, but it can also be something justifiable if the leader is an evil tyrant.

Now, with all of that said, making exile limited won't matter. At all. Even if it's limited to a 3 in game year period, what's stopping anybody from refreshing said exile to make it permanent? Adding an OOC rule for it seems incredibly silly, and otherwise it just makes people have to do that thing nobody likes to do, delivering "exile messages", because you cannot exile someone without first seeing them (which is a fair ruling OOC but dumb IC). It won't encourage interaction, these exchanges will be short with a "you are still exiled or whatever" followed by apathy, angry rants or PvP.
:)

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by BegoneThoth » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:25 pm

If they want to renew it they can, but it would require the current leaders to actually review the case rather then not bothering. We have had some recent leaders not wanting to mess with the exile list at all despite not knowing why anyone was on it. It stops someones arbitrary/tyrannical decision from standing for eternity.
\

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by Nitro » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:28 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:37 pm
Nitro wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:19 pm
"Why is ogrush babyeater the serial child-murderer walking our streets again?"
"Oops, forgot to exile him again after his paperwork got lost for the fourth time"
DM's have demonstrated they are more then willing to intervene and 'resolve' consistent bad behavior. Awful conduct is not something to be 'handled' exclusively by the exile system.

The situation you mention is a non-issue.
Why does Ogrush Babyeater have to demonstrate poor conduct? What if he's an OOC swell guy who follows all the rules but plays an unapologetically evil character and demonstrates that he can and will do evil things over and over?

Doesn't really sound like a non-issue.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by Cortex » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:01 am

BegoneThoth wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:25 pm
If they want to renew it they can, but it would require the current leaders to actually review the case rather then not bothering. We have had some recent leaders not wanting to mess with the exile list at all despite not knowing why anyone was on it. It stops someones arbitrary/tyrannical decision from standing for eternity.
No, it doesn't require the leaders to do anything, I've had exiled characters brushed off because "I must have been exiled for a reason", which they didn't even know about.

Mind, this was when exile lists didn't exist and you could exile the entire server if you wanted, but the point stands.
:)

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Exile should be time limited

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:46 am

Nitro wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:28 pm
BegoneThoth wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:37 pm
Nitro wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:19 pm
"Why is ogrush babyeater the serial child-murderer walking our streets again?"
"Oops, forgot to exile him again after his paperwork got lost for the fourth time"
DM's have demonstrated they are more then willing to intervene and 'resolve' consistent bad behavior. Awful conduct is not something to be 'handled' exclusively by the exile system.

The situation you mention is a non-issue.
Why does Ogrush Babyeater have to demonstrate poor conduct? What if he's an OOC swell guy who follows all the rules but plays an unapologetically evil character and demonstrates that he can and will do evil things over and over?

Doesn't really sound like a non-issue.
If someone constantly causes trouble, the same trouble, over and over, the DM's do get involved. That's what I meant. Even if it's an 'unapologetically evil character.'
Cortex wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:01 am
BegoneThoth wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:25 pm
If they want to renew it they can, but it would require the current leaders to actually review the case rather then not bothering. We have had some recent leaders not wanting to mess with the exile list at all despite not knowing why anyone was on it. It stops someones arbitrary/tyrannical decision from standing for eternity.
No, it doesn't require the leaders to do anything, I've had exiled characters brushed off because "I must have been exiled for a reason", which they didn't even know about.

Mind, this was when exile lists didn't exist and you could exile the entire server if you wanted, but the point stands.
Well yeah, that's why a timer would be good. So the current administration would have to do something.
\

Post Reply