Cordor Elections & Assassinations

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by -XXX- » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:57 pm

Despite understanding the reasoning and at the risk of digressing from the actual point: I do no believe that any properly roleplayed paladin would take part or condone the hiring of assasins for whatever reason. The FR cannon pretty much dictates them to be rigid and impractical like that. That being said, this would suggest taking one of (or both of) the following ideas into consideration:
  • An alternative way of dealing with suddenly undesirable political power for strongly lawful characters
  • An overhaul of what is perceived as "paladinhood" on Arelith as opposed to FR cannon

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Wytchee » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:45 pm

On that note, I have always felt LN paladins should be allowed.

We allow for lawful bards, so I know it's possible.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Cortex » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:50 am

edited out cus other msg was deleted
Last edited by Cortex on Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:28 am

Holy crap. How far have we gone?

There is nothing more "ach waily waily" sounding than trying to conjure up a mechanical way for lawful characters/paladins to dispose of political leadership that they don't agree with.

Antagonists (and villains) should have an entirely different toolbox than protagonists (and heroes). Just because non-good gets Assassinations, doesn't mean Team Good needs something of mechanical equivalency. That's awful. Throw Smite Evil out the door if that's your line of thinking.

It's like they didn't care about the entire leadership challenge cycle. Or, like, politics.

@DMGrumpyCat, if that Lollipop Faction turned to be a ruse for Cyricists, then shame on Team Good for being so stupid for not knowing otherwise. There's a whole host of resistance roleplay that can be undertaken by paladins.

And paladins should not be allowed to be anything but LG (maybe CG if we ever get to the Paladin of Freedom path). Any excuse to dilute the complexity of paladin roleplay so people can play edgy "greater good" LNers can just play edgy "greater good" LNers that aren't paladins.

The whole conflict of a paladin is to reconcile rigid codes of virtue, with a world full of ambiguity and morally grey scenarios, in a backdrop of cosmic superpowers aligned to fundamental and unequivocal "good" and "evil."
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Memelord » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:03 am

For the record, for people who want to play non-LG holy warriors with paladin-esque powers, there are two Prestige Class options available to you: Champion of Torm/Deity and Harper Paragon. Neither requires LG, both give a variety of divine-focused powers normally available only to Paladins, and both can easily be used to represent a holy warrior who isn't a paladin.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:25 am

I think people are missing my point for the details. I just used the example as an alternative to make typically good or neutral pcs see the other side of the issue. Even if assassination is typically a tool used by evil or neutral characters that does not invalidate it as a good tool. Removing it removes a tool for player agency. That might seem fine to some of you right now but you should ask yourselves if you will always be alright with this.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Sab1 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:36 pm

It's been a theme for a bit ig now of some paladins who have been saying anything is fine as long as the end result is their idea of good. So with that mindset they could justify assassinating someone they felt was a evil menace and good needed to be restored. Many Arelith paladins mentality has always been a bit off cannon imo.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by clanogrady » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:40 pm

Even had a paladin say, "I spit on your laws. Laws are for the weak" Or something along those lines.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:00 pm

Sab1 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:36 pm
It's been a theme for a bit ig now of some paladins who have been saying anything is fine as long as the end result is their idea of good. So with that mindset they could justify assassinating someone they felt was a evil menace and good needed to be restored. Many Arelith paladins mentality has always been a bit off cannon imo.
When paladin becomes just a tool to achieve the perfect power build, unfortunately that's what you get.


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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Cortex » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:06 pm

Paladins are outshined by Harper Paragon hard as far as builds go, not to mention less flexible from a RP stand point.

If there are paladins that are not playing the lawful part and are acting chaotic, they probably need a DM talking.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Queen Titania » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:42 pm

Sab1 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:36 pm
It's been a theme for a bit ig now of some paladins who have been saying anything is fine as long as the end result is their idea of good. So with that mindset they could justify assassinating someone they felt was a evil menace and good needed to be restored. Many Arelith paladins mentality has always been a bit off cannon imo.
clanogrady wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:40 pm
Even had a paladin say, "I spit on your laws. Laws are for the weak" Or something along those lines.
This is a little off-topic, but I want to lay into this a bit.

1: The latter part that I struck out did not happen, according to the book of Logs, but the former can be believable, and requires context. If the laws were wicked, it certainly does not go against LG to decry them.

2: If there are concerns about LG Paladins not being LG, please report it. I have not received any reports of paladins acting non-paladin like. We have in the past adjusted alignment if warnings of adjusting behavior were ignored, removed the class, or if it was something against the Radiant, removed them from the Radiant order. Please note the following though before sending in:

3: A Lawful Good character is going to respect laws that are Lawful Good. If a law runs contrary to their alignment, not so much. Scenario A: A settlement allows open brawls and duels within its walls. This could be legally sanctioned by well meaning individuals as harmless, but another lawful good character could determine that open violence is not in the interest of public reception or safety in society, and would seek its end. Or perhaps in scenario B: A Waukeener legalizes gambling and allows betting in the Cordor Arena. Again, some characters might think it is okay and harmless, but a paladin may see it as causing poverty and despair. The government in both examples to these LG people are guilty of promoting a lawless and wicked act. If the government is really heinous with its laws, the paladin may even take direct action.

4: No two paladins are alike. Your interpretation of paladin may be correct, but so may theirs. You might complain they are too violent, but Lawful Good does not mean nice. Or you might complain they are too soft, but that may fit their LG philosophy to be more naive. So before you send it in, try to be certain. My greater concern is when paladin bashing leaks OOC into IC, particularly from non-paladin characters. Does your character really have a need to say they shouldn't be a paladin, given they don't really know what it is about?

Personally, it doesn't normally make sense for a Paladin to use the assassins guild, but I would have no problem with a CG character doing this.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Wytchee » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:11 pm

Gotta echo, more or less, what Titania said (even if, alas, I contribute to this wild tangent).

Lawful does not mean "adherence to the law" in any measure. Lawful means one has a code. That code can be, and usually is, adherence to just laws; but in no way is a lawful character, let alone a paladin, obligated to adhere to clearly unjust or evil laws.

There are plenty of lawful anarchists in action right now.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Sab1 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:33 pm

I didn't mean to imply I felt paladins were doing it wrong, just what may be rule book cookie cutter canon paladin I don't think you see a lot here which is a good thing since it means no two paladins are alike. My only concern is the end justify the means mentality for a paladin. The I may commit some evil acts as long as in the end things fit my image of good just seems more CG to me and is how I imagined a Harper to be. But that's just my interpretation of paladins. When i first played one here it seemed paladins had a very strict this good that evil mindset. Paladins now seem to dwell more in the grey areas, which I think adds personality to them but can be a slippery slope.. A paladin hiring an assassin could simply be they have the power to stop this evil person so they need to take drastic measures for the greater good to stop the fiend. Sorry if the thread turned into a paladin discussion.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Queen Titania » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:40 pm

If you are seeing "ends justify the means stuff", you can share it with the team, but you may just come to find out they are not a paladin at all and are CG/Harper Paragon, they made a mistake and made amends for it after the fact, or context suggests it did not happen as described to you by another person, who was lying/giving hearsay/gave miscommunication about a detail. But we cannot investigate something not shared to see if it is a valid concern.

Personally, for the most part of my own observations, I'm seeing paladins mostly in line as they should be while still being unique from each other. I've also not seen any paladins use the assassination system.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Lunargent » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:07 pm

I'm just going to lay this to rest once and for all.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by The_Queen~s_Rebuke » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:25 pm

Okay, everyone. I feel that this topic has veered quite a bit from what it should have been focused on. Get back on track, the forums are not the place to air your grievances about others' IC conduct.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:41 pm

Image
UilliamNebel wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:24 pm
You're right. Participating in the forums was a mistake. Won't do this again.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Wytchee » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:55 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:41 pm
Image
This is cool and good though.

edit: but yeeah back on track.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:11 pm

tl;dr political climate should always teeter on somewhere being a shitshow and a thing of raw Machiavellian beauty (for Cordor)

tl;dr don't take player agency away for the sake of some subjective definition on "stability" or "consistency needed for fun"

tl;dr PvP is valid method of achieving political power or disrupting political norms. Play smart if PvP freaks you out

tl;dr Assassinations are cool, paladins are LG, there always is a back and forth in apathy, modern-day out-of-place ideology, and people trying to create too much mechanical bloat

tl;dr the fact someone has to post their character alignment on the forums to dispel player commentary means a lot of people are pretty whack and lame
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by sad_zav » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:12 pm

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:31 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:11 pm
tl;dr political climate should always teeter on somewhere being a shitshow and a thing of raw Machiavellian beauty (for Cordor)

tl;dr don't take player agency away for the sake of some subjective definition on "stability" or "consistency needed for fun"

tl;dr PvP is valid method of achieving political power or disrupting political norms. Play smart if PvP freaks you out

tl;dr Assassinations are cool, paladins are LG, there always is a back and forth in apathy, modern-day out-of-place ideology, and people trying to create too much mechanical bloat

tl;dr the fact someone has to post their character alignment on the forums to dispel player commentary means a lot of people are pretty whack and lame
While you're right, in all seriousness the assassin system does need some more back and forth in it. As it's set up right now, if your character isn't willing to buy off the contract (Which is a very justifiable and defensible position to have), there's no way to interact with the system other than just accepting that occasionally assassins are going to pop out and try to kill you for the rest of the character's life span. The contract never times out as long as you're playing the character, and nothing stops all the assassins on the server from having a crack at it in sequence (Or multiple cracks). There's also no way to find out who placed the contract or otherwise continue the conflict with them (Presumably existing before the contract is placed).

It's a nice system, but needs a few touchings-up to be better in my opinion. Some sort of one and done on attempts on the contract, and maybe a way to bribe the administrator to give up a description of who placed the contract or w/e, if you kill an assassin.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Wytchee » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:45 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:31 pm
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:11 pm
tl;dr political climate should always teeter on somewhere being a shitshow and a thing of raw Machiavellian beauty (for Cordor)

tl;dr don't take player agency away for the sake of some subjective definition on "stability" or "consistency needed for fun"

tl;dr PvP is valid method of achieving political power or disrupting political norms. Play smart if PvP freaks you out

tl;dr Assassinations are cool, paladins are LG, there always is a back and forth in apathy, modern-day out-of-place ideology, and people trying to create too much mechanical bloat

tl;dr the fact someone has to post their character alignment on the forums to dispel player commentary means a lot of people are pretty whack and lame
While you're right, in all seriousness the assassin system does need some more back and forth in it. As it's set up right now, if your character isn't willing to buy off the contract (Which is a very justifiable and defensible position to have), there's no way to interact with the system other than just accepting that occasionally assassins are going to pop out and try to kill you for the rest of the character's life span. The contract never times out as long as you're playing the character, and nothing stops all the assassins on the server from having a crack at it in sequence (Or multiple cracks). There's also no way to find out who placed the contract or otherwise continue the conflict with them (Presumably existing before the contract is placed).

It's a nice system, but needs a few touchings-up to be better in my opinion. Some sort of one and done on attempts on the contract, and maybe a way to bribe the administrator to give up a description of who placed the contract or w/e, if you kill an assassin.
Hunter voiced my concerns to the letter. Thanks.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:27 pm

Working out the 'who placed the contract' thing would have to be done carefully, if only because the main benefit of the system is really the anonymity. Remove that and there's not much reason to use the Guild. Not saying it'd be an entirely bad call, mark you, merely that if done it should be done carefully.

Contracts timing out makes 100% sense though and really should happen. I'd say after one IG year. If for no other reason than to get rid of the ungodly amounts of clutter on the Assassin contract board.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by The Kriv » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:20 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:27 pm
Working out the 'who placed the contract' thing would have to be done carefully, if only because the main benefit of the system is really the anonymity. Remove that and there's not much reason to use the Guild. Not saying it'd be an entirely bad call, mark you, merely that if done it should be done carefully.
Maybe then an answer would be an added layer to the contract to ensure silence... when a contract is taken out, a random # is generated, and that number is multiplied by the contracting character's intimidate score or persuasion score (whichever is higher) Then that number is stored in a separate variable (nSilence) If the person who the contract is out on BUYS out the contract, they can pay an additional amount = ContractAmount * nSilence <-- if that amount is paid, then they have successfully Bribed someone at the Assassin's guild to cough up the name of who put the contract out.

This amount should be by design incredibly high.

If the person who takes out the contract wants to purchase silence, then they can pay extra at the time the contract is taken out to ensure silence.... for a price. And that price could be a similar formula... that the result would affect the above formula by increasing or decreasing it based on how relatively intimidating or persuasive they are compared to the person trying to buy out their own contract.


-So the application of the RP would be:

1) Purchaser takes out a contract on Victim, doesn't care if their identity is discovered, pays nothing extra.

Victim goes to buy out their own contract, wants to know who the Purchaser was... pays bribe.. gets the info.

2) Purchaser takes out a contract on Victim, but wants to ensure their identity is kept secret at all costs, so they pay the extra amount to buy the silence. The Purchaser's Persuasion or Intimidate score is recorded (whichever is higher)

Victim goes to buy out their own contract, wants to know who the Purchaser was... Attempts the Bribe to get the info... but... the Victim must now beat the persuasion or intimidate of the Purchaser in order for the bribe attempt to be successful.

-The Victim succeeds in beating the Purchaser's Intimidate or Persuade score.... Bribe is successful, they get the info
-The victim fails in beating the Purchaser's Intimidate or Persuade Score... Bribe unsuccessful... Money spent and lost and no info gained.

This would all happen of course AFTER the Victim buys out their own contract...

could even introduce epic-failure... where the victim attempts the bribe, and they fail so spectacularly that the guild is insulted... the guild keeps the money the Victim just paid to buy out their contract, and the contract is renewed, with NO chance of a buyout.... and raised by double... meaning the person who completes the kill, now gets the original contract amount AND the amount the Victim tried to pay the guild off with! -all things come with a price!!!
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Scurvy Cur » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:35 pm

DM Titania wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:36 pm
I don't think the system should change just because of this, we're not going to throw permanent death on them, and there is a big risk in cases of abuse in preventing the character from running again. I think how players respond IG should change to what happens to their characters or the world around them.

1: The Chancellor should protect themselves. Not protecting themselves leads to chaos. Even if they win again, it should form into a teaching moment to them, that they learn they can begin to lose people's faith if they are not taking security seriously and it happens again. On the other hand, they can also choose not to run as a player when this happens, letting the assassination have more effect. I would not blame anyone not wanting to do that though after such a short time of three days of leading, in fairness.
2: Assassins should probably not strike so fast. Striking so soon after the election is not going to see the Chancellor's voting base crumble. They in turn, should take this as a learning opportunity to take their time unless there are certain that the election was very close and the few problem voters have been dealt with, in bribes or other ways.
3: With constant threats to security, guards may wish to investigate suspicious targets, and throw eyes upon them, because letting suspicious people walk apathetically can lead to bad things happening, as they may learn.
4: Voters do not have to start an election when it is possible. If people want longer periods they can choose not to run until an agreed upon time limit. The other Surface settlements have in the past had election periods with greater spaces than one real life month.

If I was going to change the system in general:

1: No more than three terms per elected leader (Excluding Brogendenstein for cultural reasons). Terms are divided by election challenges. No election challenge, no interruption of term. There are only so many elected leaders possible, and turnover to new hands a good thing.
2: Any assassination in the first month prevents a Chancellor from using their powers for several days. In the second month, it calls an election. In a third, removes their ability to run and starts an election, regardless of if it is the first, second, or third term.
3: Another 15 days added to the election cycle. One month is too short, but two months too long. Maybe a month and a half is that sweet spot of getting things done.
I wanted to chime in on your observations 1-3.

1) Chancellors should protect themselves.

Agreed, generally. There comes a point though where security can get in the way of effective leadership. This is a good thing though. Winning an election should by no means result in a safe position of power, and I am glad to see elected governments become less secure.

2) Assassins Shouldn’t Strike so Soon

It depends. As a general matter, that’s probably true. If someone has just won an election, it’s not likely that immediately redoing the election will produce a different result. A lot of people seem to have forgotten that there are only two uses for an assassination: to force an election, and to impair the ability of a player government to do things (this latter requires some level of willingness to chain contracts such that the government spends a protracted amount of time in election mode). The former is the objective overwhelmingly pursued, but it’s largely pointless to bump someone out that has recently won an election, especially if you’re just going to run the same candidate against them.

As a result, generally, assassinations are most useful towards the back end of a leader’s term, when there is the greatest likelihood that apathy, dissatisfaction, and a shift in player population means that the election may turn out differently. There are two notable exceptions:

If the sitting leader has just done something outrageous and unexpected (say, for example, dissolving the entire government and suspending everyone), there’s a chance that enough people will be upset to materially change the election.

If new and coordinated party is ready to challenge one that’s been muddling along through sheer inertia for a while, then the new election may turn out differently.

One final note here: the first assassination event was a unique circumstance, and probably doesn’t follow the same rules. The chancellor was unelected, and had just done something fairly outrageous. Those of us watching things unfold guessed (correctly, it turns out) that moving immediately would deprive the target of time to fully cement his power base, and would leave him no time to do anything with his office beyond “give himself the chancellorship and immediately dissolve the government”. As a result, we were very conscious of the benefits of hitting hard and fast. With an elected opponent with a fresh crop of supporters, there’s no way we’d have viewed it as the correct play.

3) The guard should do more guarding

Yes.


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