Feylocks

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Rwby
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Feylocks

Post by Rwby » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:13 pm

So I'm pretty sad to see the already mechanically superior Warlock get a buff while Feylocks get left behind. Certainly, they're pretty horrific if you're not mind immune, but given almost all late game content is immune to spells/mine immune/has really high saves/is undead late game they're lackluster.

Already the suggestions are popping up about how to 'fix' Feylocks, so despite the fact I personally don't have many ideas, it seemed time to open a thread to pick everyone elses brains on the subject, or maybe for the contributors to weigh in on why they either felt Feylocks are fine, or to spoil us with their secret plan for Feylocks in the future.

[Or maybe they're going to be grandfathered...]

TimeAdept
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Re: Feylocks

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:08 pm

My personal darts to the dartboard for Feylock:

Eldritch Blast - Feywalk Binding: Gain Charisma modifier to blast damage while in stealth mode or Invisible: rewards the Feylock for being hidden, moving around, being annoying, vs the Fiendlock's very tanky hang out with summon approach.

Essence of Acid: Reduces the target's spell resistance for 4 rounds by 1/2/3/4 at level 4/12/20/28.

Essence of Lightning: Reduces the target's Reflex and Fortitude saves for 4 rounds by 1/2/3 at level 4/12/20. At level 28 this also applies to Will Saves. [This is done specifically to gate progression of will save reduction to avoid too much stacking with Mindfog, and reward pure feylocks who give up blackguard.)

Essence of Life-Burst: Affects Undead powerfully and can explode radiantly. Adds an extra 1d4 positive damage per 3 Warlock levels vs everyone, which radiates outward and affects all non-directly targetted undead within a small AoE as well.

These two above elemental abilities make Feylock a reducer of spell aligned statistics and Fiendlock a reducer of physical aligned statistics, again delineating them and giving them both roles. The Undead focused one serves as a polar opposite to the negative immune life stealing Fiend one, gives the Fey an option against mind immune undead, and gives them an AoE damage option that Feylocks lack outside Sound Burst

In miscellaneous non directly related changes - I think at some point the Shadow Conjuration summon should summon 3 shades not just two, and their AI tweaked a bit so that them running into Mindfog doesn't immediately make them run at you murderously. I think the spell list could also use some reviewing - unlike Fiendlock, they have redundant spells (hold monster vs hold person) that are retained on their list unlike Fiendlock.

Rwby
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Re: Feylocks

Post by Rwby » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:25 pm

Maybe three shadows at 21? That seems like a little cookie to offset it's medicority.

[Don't get me wrong, I love it, but it'd pretty much exclusively an RP tool and as such it'd be nice if it got better as you levelled up!]

I like the charisma damage mod, because A) I play a Feylock with lots of Charisma, but mostly B) Because it'd be nice for there to be some incentive to not have the utter bare minimum cha and dump everything into Con.

Tourmaline
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Re: Feylocks

Post by Tourmaline » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:55 pm

Some useful summons would be nice. Access to summon 1-6 for animals even.

I'd kinda like to see some unseelie fey-friendly tools for trickery RP. Access to wildshape or polymorph self, giving epic spell focus divination for scry at 30 if they have the other two focuses.. things like that.

I also think the curse and remove curse spells, even strengthened versions or custom curses could be part of their arsenal.

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Feylocks

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:44 am

Had this idea at work, but, a couple things I could think of to help them, from simple-ish to complete rework-y.
(Of course, if there's plans to do something for feylocks, this is all moot, so, hey, maybe someone in the know wants to chime in?) Taking some cues from assassin here, actually, as I really like the idea of dual-purpose spells. And also pnp warlocks.

Simple (comparatively):
1. Summon Shadow Bad, I hear it's still broken.
Replacement: Flee The Scene. Summons an illusory version of the warlock for one round, while simultaneously turning the warlock invisible. The illusory clone casts one flare spell at 1/4th of the warlock's blast damage. It casts two if the warlock has the extend spell feat. Maybe at higher levels it increases the warlock's speed, as well.

2. For the love of god just give them improved invisibility. Keep displacement, fine, whatever, but give'm II too. QoL on feylocks is bad.

3. Fiendlocks get bull's strength and cat's grace, the two physical buffs bards get, maybe give feylocks owl's wisdom and fox's cunning, to represent their more cerebral/mind-effecting theme. (And also to increase party utility.)

4. Give them a (working) summon earlier, or more AoE options than the incredibly piddly sound burst. Maybe since fiendlocks get blast essences, feylocks can get blast shapes.

5. it's 2018 give them chilling tentacles

Rework-y territory:
A couple of options here.
1. And probably the least-desired option: Their spell list is bad and smells an awful lot like they got the spells left over from trimming the fiendlock list. Sit down and, without restricting things because fiendlocks have them, figure out what fits the theme of tricky controller-type character.

2. Possibly simple but still a big ask, probably.. Allow a level 28 feylock to select an epic spell focus for one of the lines they have greater focus in. Maybe a second one at 30.

3. Barring QoL stuff (imp invis), this doesn't require much in the way of changing their list, but is maybe a bit strong as hell. Let feylocks punch through mind immunity. Restrict it to, say, creatures of half their level, plus charisma modifier- but restrict the charisma modifier to half the warlock's level. So to effect level 30 creatures, they have to have 15 cha mod and 30 levels. Which also gives them a niche other than 'conlock.'
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Purplemyst
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Re: Feylocks

Post by Purplemyst » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:51 am

I’ve already made my suggestions, but I really hope the feylocks get some changes. They used to be my favourite class until they were nerfed into the ground. I was gutted reading the updates regarding the fiendlocks as they are already more powerful than the fey.

Hopefully one of the admin/contributors have a chance to have a look at them and add something neat to make them fun to play again.

Rwby
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Re: Feylocks

Post by Rwby » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:11 pm

I suspect DM Titania's influence at work.
Down with the bloody Fey Queen! [That's an Alice in Wonderland reference.]

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Purplemyst
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Re: Feylocks

Post by Purplemyst » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:40 pm

I imagine DM Titania needs new feylocks to torment haha

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RainbowsAndLollipops
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Re: Feylocks

Post by RainbowsAndLollipops » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:04 pm

TimeAdept has some super solid ideas.

I really like the idea of concentrating something around Enchantment, Illusion, and Divination. Being able to Scry would be very thematic, and same with the ESF illusion powers. And yes, they should be evil only.

I was personally surprised that Fiendlocks got a boost over feylocks given that the changes could have just applied to both with a minor difference. In comparison, they are just too easy to counter.

The loss of cold damage, which is far superior for endgame dungeons, was a very serious nerf.

And, feylocks really should have see invisibility. They already do have one less spell than fiend locks and a lot of their spells are highly useless.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Feylocks

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:42 pm

Wanted to point out two things that I feel are being overlooked. Firstly, none of the warlock paths require an evil alignment - they're all simply non-good. Secondly, acid will make them finally able to use blasts to deal with trolls, which is pretty nice.
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RainbowsAndLollipops
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Re: Feylocks

Post by RainbowsAndLollipops » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:37 pm

Neither of those things are being overlooked.

Trolls are a mid-level issue that can be dealt with with a fireballs/acid spray/flamehands wands. You don't really need to worry too much after that. I just invis passed them if I was alone.

On the other hand, it is a large DPS drop for end game dungeons.

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Re: Feylocks

Post by yellowcateyes » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:12 pm

Feylocks weren't touched in this update for a couple big reasons.

1) Time and labor constraints. This was primarily an update about summoning / animation systems and the classes dependent on those systems. Doing too much at once leads to problems.

2) Any adjustments to the Enchantment school will likely have a major effect on Feylocks. This leads to the potential of creating more work if Feylocks are changed now, Enchantment is changed later, and Feylocks have to be readjusted in light of Enchantment changes.

Feel free to continue to make suggestions on perks, spells, and adjustments you believe Feylocks would benefit from. There are currently no solid plans regarding the path.
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Tourmaline
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Re: Feylocks

Post by Tourmaline » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:02 am

What if feylocks were able to use Curse Song as if still a bard, but not the beneficial version?

Just a thought but it seems thematically appropriate. I like them as masters of trickery and hexes.

Two spells I do think they should receive are Bestow Curse and Dominate Animal.

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Re: Feylocks

Post by Purplemyst » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:04 pm

Tourmaline wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:02 am
What if feylocks were able to use Curse Song as if still a bard, but not the beneficial version?

Just a thought but it seems thematically appropriate. I like them as masters of trickery and hexes.

Two spells I do think they should receive are Bestow Curse and Dominate Animal.
I think this is a really good suggestion!

Old Kentucky Shark
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Re: Feylocks

Post by Old Kentucky Shark » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:17 pm

Not sure how that would work, since CS doesn't have its own uses per day, but rather draws from uses of bard song. Would be pretty darned neat if it could be managed though.

JediMindTrix
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Re: Feylocks

Post by JediMindTrix » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:37 pm

If it's code-able, you could just give bard song to feylocks and then change it's behavior to behave like curse song.

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Feylocks

Post by One Two Three Five » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:10 am

I'd leave bard powers to bards, considering. Also, gosh I wish we had those little click-to-expand spoiler tags because this is about to get large. Oh well. Threw this together over an afternoon or two. Not really satisfied with it, but might be a better setup than what we've got. Went more mage-y than 'summon + elemental archer tank' than fiendlock. There's some obvious weaknesses which I'll get to later.

So, for starters:
Level 10 Uncanny Dodge, 5/- DR Acid/Elec
Level 20 Quarter level + Cha capped by quarter level mind spell breaching, 10/- elemental dr
Level 30 Half level + Cha capped by half level mind spell breaching, 20/- elemental dr.
Bonus Feat: Select one epic spell focus for a line you have Greater Spell Focus with, FOIG location.
So, just to start: giving them acid resistance since they do acid damage now (although being resistant to fiendlocks is funny). Removing their damage immunity and trading it for the ability to mind-spell people through mind immunity (With an incentive to max out cha).

Also, reordered/subbed out spells some-
1: Flare, Light
2: Mage Armor, Sleep
3: Color Spray
4: Expeditious retreat
5: Cure Light Wounds, Ghostly Visage
6: Charm Person or Animal
7: Displacement
8: Dominate Animal
9: Invisibility
10: Clairvoyance
11: Cloud of Bewilderment, Hold Person
12: Slow, Haste
13: Mind Fog
14: Dispel Magic, Eagle's Splendor
15: Hold Monster
16: Energy Buffer
17: Improved Invisibility
18: Greater Shadow Conjuration
19: Dismissal, Dominate Person
20: Confusion
22: Greater Dispelling
25: Power Word Stun
28: Shadow Shield OR Mass Charm (does this spell work?)
So. Reasonings. Color spray early gives them a strong early AoE option that'll scale.. well, respectably, if not greatly, and since it's the GSF: Illu spell, we already know having it infinite wont break anything.

Ghostly Visage earlier is mainly a QoL change, and to make their leveling easier since, you know. No summon.

Charm person or animal: Just, it's a slightly better version of a bad spell. They could use it.

Dominate Animal: A very specific domination spell, but an early peek into the feylock's ongoing 'naturety-enchantery-trickster' theme, and a way to grab a tank in some areas.

Clairvoyance: Mirror ability. Fiendlock can see through magical stealth, so feylock gets a way past mundane stealth (with skill investment). Also, divination being part of their skill set interests the heck out of me.

Improved Invisibility: Summon shadow is bad and so is displacement save very specific circumstances. QoL (and broken ability removal) change.

Greater Shadow Conjuration:
I know what I just said, listen. Greater shadow conj gives them access to a small set of interesting little spells, none of which are terribly strong, but serve a (I think) cool purpose: Adding versatility to the spell list, and making it a little bit harder to identify warlocks by blurring the difference between them and normal mages.

Dismissal:
Fiendlocks get see invis, countering one of the feylocks major defenses, so, it's only fair.

Power Word Stun: fun spell. Follows the divination vibe.

And, final abilities:
Depending on which focus they select at 30 (Ench, Div, Illu) they'll also get Dominate Monster, Power Word: Kill, or Shades, on a, say, 6 minute cooldown
I'm not satisfied with it, mostly due to the lack of defense compared to a traditional mage (no premo), but idk how to fix that without inflating the spell list by an extreme. But the idea is to make them a 'mage' and not a '600 hp EDR 3 elemental archer,' and I think this or similar tweaks would do that.
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Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

Tourmaline
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Re: Feylocks

Post by Tourmaline » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:28 am

Reworking Feylocks could actually be an opportunity to delve into some of the unused spells in the game (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Non-class_spells)

I really like the idea of them having curses, so "Evil Blight" could be a great spell to have (lowers all enemies' stats by 3)

"Rogue's Cunning" would also be good, giving them some extra stealth and disable trap/open lock abilities while it's up

"Create Shadowfiend" summoning a stock NWN shadow (like the cleric's Death Domain shadow) with a 20% chance of being hostile could be an alternative to the broken shadow summon they have now.

"Haste-Slow", "Aura of Glory (Cursed)" and "Tide of Battle" could also be some good, though weird spells that have a chance of adverse effect on the caster, as any good Unseelie pacted warlock should expect.

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Re: Feylocks

Post by RedGiant » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:43 am

I think fey warlock needs a full rework. A long time ago we were promised shadow pact warlocks....and many also asked for star pacts. The last update to fey seemed to deliver on the shadow pact not by adding a new pact, but by weirdly merging shadow powers into the fey pact.

I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing a complete reimagining of these pacts as two separate classes per the original idea. Fey could concentrate on crowd control and mind effects (please bring back dominate monster as a 28 perk), while the Shadow could take all the shadowy things it already does (maybe moving shadow shield down a few rungs and make the 28 perk be the epic illusion shadow clone).
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Re: Feylocks

Post by yellowcateyes » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:24 pm

RedGiant wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:43 am
A long time ago we were promised shadow pact warlocks.
Out of curiosity, who made this promise? And can you link it?
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Re: Feylocks

Post by Nitro » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:46 pm

A quick forum search gives a rejected suggestion topic from Redgiant as the only topic mentioning shadow pact warlocks. So if there was ever any "promise" it was in the old forums.

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Re: Feylocks

Post by RedGiant » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:57 am

Yeah...and perhaps "promise" is a strong word. It was a looong time ago, probably on the old forums old as Nitro said. Maybe Mithreas can help us out here, but I recall him saying there was plans for a development of a future shadow pact. I don't think there was any such statement on star pacts, but all the Cthulhu-heads immediately began begging for it. Not that we would want a direct import of Lovecraft, but there are plenty of canon elder evils about in DnD, and starpacts were suppoerted in 3.5.

Though, this begs the question if a shadow pact is warranted at all, since this was before shadow mage implementation. We admittedly have quite a few shadowy classes at the moment.

Still wouldn't mind one final Fey Warlock rework as above...and if not a Shadow Pact Warlock...maybe its time to hasten the harbingers of the apocalypse and their dark radiance!
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One Two Three Five
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Re: Feylocks

Post by One Two Three Five » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:05 am

I remember mithreas mentioning shadow pact warlocks way back in the day but I don't think anything ever came of it.

And not to keep grinding this axe, but, perhaps, given that fiendlocks can:

Drop almost all of their worthwhile spells with no damage loss, have a heavy hitter/tank summon to level and pvp with, can now debuff via -command damage cycling, and keep their pet healed while adding extra damage (15d6+15 + 10d4, twice a round! Average of, what, 160 damage per round now?)...

Can feylocks have their damage-on-disable spells boosted? The haste restriction removed?
Any buffs whatsoever? It's almost comical, and I know I've said this before, how absolutely screwed over Feylocks keep getting compared to fiendlocks.
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Re: Feylocks

Post by Wytchee » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:29 am

Not to mention feylocks are neutered by two of the most common UMD items (heck, one of them isn't even UMD) in the game.
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Re: Feylocks

Post by MissEvelyn » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:24 pm

Not a build expert by any means, but aren't Feylocks meant to be multi-classed to be powerful?


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