Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

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strong yeet
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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by strong yeet » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:53 am

Rwby wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:27 am
Is that to say the DM Team has a negative view of the situations in Myon and Brogenstine, who frequently have leaders for RL years?
What kind of question is that, come on dude it's not even related to the topic

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by Ebonstar » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:44 am

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:15 am
Just to put in a small thought-

Whilst some stability is nice, you probably don't want to build anything with -too- much stability. Shifts in power/influence are actually very good and healthy for a settlment/server. I don't think you want a situation, especialy in a underdark settlment, where Character X and his faction has been in controle for 2+ RL years, and it doesn't look like anything could ever possibly change. You want regular (monthly, bi monthly, tri monthly?) shifts in power and influence, so that things are kept interesting, and also so that different characters have a go at trying their hand at leadership.

In fact, the last point is one of the few good points about the three-leadership council. Though I'll admit that the negatives may outweigh it.
this sums up most of what causes the turmoil for that is what is happening now and needs to be fixed asap, because the part Durvayas mentioned about mechanics over RP
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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:52 am

DM GrumpyCat wrote: ↑
29 Jul 2018 10:15
Just to put in a small thought-

Whilst some stability is nice, you probably don't want to build anything with -too- much stability. Shifts in power/influence are actually very good and healthy for a settlment/server. I don't think you want a situation, especialy in a underdark settlment, where Character X and his faction has been in controle for 2+ RL years, and it doesn't look like anything could ever possibly change. You want regular (monthly, bi monthly, tri monthly?) shifts in power and influence, so that things are kept interesting, and also so that different characters have a go at trying their hand at leadership.

In fact, the last point is one of the few good points about the three-leadership council. Though I'll admit that the negatives may outweigh it.

Is that to say the DM Team has a negative view of the situations in Myon and Brogenstine, who frequently have leaders for RL years?
That is to say it is My Own Personal Opinion that whilst I accept such things happen, I am against putting in a system, especialy in a soceity where power grabbing is part of the background, which enables too much stability.

Myon, Brogendenstein, ect holds the same core system as Cordor which generally has a very quick turnover of leaders. Thus it stands to reason to me that the reason for the hightened stability there, is less due to the system and probably more due to the Will of The Playerbase - which is as it should be.

In short - if a One person councellor system was intorduced to DT, and it resulted in extreme stability? Well, so it goes. I will admit to some mild personal dissapointment in that, but that is all. But suggesting a system that might enhance stability to such an extent that it is proposteriously easy for one faction to take controle constnatly in a single settlment is something that I, and I think the rest of the DM Team, would be against.

However as said elsewhere, this is getting off topic.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by Ascheriit » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:02 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:15 am
Whilst some stability is nice, you probably don't want to build anything with -too- much stability. Shifts in power/influence are actually very good and healthy for a settlment/server. I don't think you want a situation, especialy in a underdark settlment, where Character X and his faction has been in controle for 2+ RL years, and it doesn't look like anything could ever possibly change. You want regular (monthly, bi monthly, tri monthly?) shifts in power and influence, so that things are kept interesting, and also so that different characters have a go at trying their hand at leadership.

In fact, the last point is one of the few good points about the three-leadership council. Though I'll admit that the negatives may outweigh it.
From the way I read that I think that Grumpycat is that stability on the extreme end may not be what players in Andunor want (At least I know I dont want the UD to become like such). From my personal view point, part of the appeal of Andunor is that there are many factions/races/groups within such a small area, and that the dynamics of power can change much more quickly than those on the surface. If one group entrenches themselves in the leadership of the district/settlement for too long it will make other players (especially newer players such as myself) feel that its never going to change, and that the situation is frankly hopeless to oppose (especially if you have a heavy difference in opinions on some matter of importance. As there is always the nuclear option of exile that they hold on their side.)

Personally I believe that the sweet spot for full elections in the district in question would be something close to every 1.5-2 months. As for actual options that could be taken given the situation, here are the ones I see.

1. Continue operating with one less council member
2. The election called after one leaves is ONLY for the empty council seat(s). Perhaps this could be done without changing the current election mechanics and dm help to take the top candidate(s) to place the top vote getters into the open council seats. This obviously might need some sort of disclaimer (indestructible sign placed in the district house at the time? perhaps with the seal of house Freth) that the election is only for the empty seat. With dev work eventually being done if this is the desired solution
3. Some sort of succession order for ministers to take open council seats. Though this may lead to power staying within one faction too much, and would require interim dm help to probably achieve. Whilst requiring dev work long term to maintain.
4. Make it like all other settlements, and have one leader.
5. No more leadership mechanics, like Skaljard. It would force the groups to interact, and maybe house Freth would intervene for serious situations. Although I believe this would be the wrong option to take with the situation at hand.

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by Ebonstar » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:48 pm

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by strong yeet » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:54 pm

It sounds like you're pretty angry about events that have happened in game and demonizing certain players as being part of some vague OOC "clique," merely using the topic at hand as an excuse to do so. I notice you post a lot of really outright hostile, rude posts and I wish you wouldn't.

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:57 pm

With all due respect, Ebonstar - whilst I understand and respect that you feel that no change in government system is needed in the Table, the purpose of this topic is for players to discuss and suggest ways to change the leadership system there, should the Devs decide it be needed.

If you do not have a constructive opinion reguarding how to change the system for the better, and want to sit on your own opinion that it should not be changed - that's fine, but there's really very little point on commenting on this thread.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by LongDongPingPong » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:41 pm

One of the things I'd prefer to go away is the use of power to exile characters just for preventing opponents from voting in elections. Other players were stating that it's the way to prevent griefers from taking place-able objects, but IMHO that is something that should be reported to DM's. From my experience, that power were used too many times for something completely else.
Elections in UD are actually never held properly. Rarely some candidates use message boards or town criers for telling other district citizens what is their goals and plans. This is why it is common for players to coordinate OOC and try to get as much votes as they can for the candidate they support. Maybe if a few days of election process were added so characters can actually have meetings with other citizens and talking about what they want to preserve or change in the district or have debates with other candidates. Maybe that would encourage more characters that otherwise don't usually vote change their mind.
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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by The1Kobra » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:05 pm

As I understand UD society...

There definitely is a lot of instability and power grabs. However, it's supposed to be kept in check enough so that it doesn't all come crashing down in a flurry of infighting that leaves only rubble left. It's definitely possible for that to happen, though it shouldn't be the norm.

Just the same, there usually is one that is at the top of the society, the most powerful. However, those who aren't at the top also constantly scheme to put themselves ahead, jealously eyeing that spot at the top.

Now, from my observations as a long time on and off player:

The 3 councilor system leads to a lot of chaos. Constant assassinations, infighting between councilors. Treasury being stolen repeatedly. If the system is too chaotic like that, then it becomes a thing that no one bothers with and just does their own thing. At that point, being in a council seat leaves one with less power, not more, because of all of the damage control they need to do to keep themselves in power. It definitely keeps things going and fluid, and it does become possible for a coalition or single faction to maintain their own power. The way the voting works though makes it difficult for a single faction to gain complete control. In order to get a majority, they would need 2/3 of the council seats, which means splitting votes.

The single councilor system (or Tyrant system, I'll call it), leaves it so that one faction is powerful above all. This does present unique challenges, as if they can unite everyone behind them, then it leaves less incentive for infighting. It does however, leave a single point of failure for any potential challengers. Still, based on what I've seen, it does seem to solidify a lot of the factionalism that otherwise would lead to infighting, and is overall a more stable system. If any challengers come into play they'd have to raise a lot of support on their own for it. It does leave any challengers to the current Tyrant entirely choked out, and in the case of Andunor, usually nowhere else to go.

Now, we probably do want there to be a system that encourages some infighting but not to a degree that completely renders the political landscape a constant warzone.

It might be best to have a system where there's one 'head' councilors and two support councilors, maybe with clearly defined rankings. First Councilor, Second Councilor, etc. And that leaves a chain of command, so the Second Councilor could override rulings of the Third, but the First could override the Second. I'm not entirely sure how that could be implemented, but it's something to consider.

It could also be made so that if a councilor resigns or is assassinated, it does not immediately spark an election (unless no councilors remain), but instead the councilors go ahead and take their place on the hierarchy. So that means the second councilor has incentive to bump off the first, and the third has incentive to bump off the second... and gives some incentive for cooperation if they know they're outmatched. It does give some 'opposition' factions some room to play as well, or might if they're not just killed out entirely.

It probably would take some investment, but it could provide a nice balance of stability/chaos that could foster continued play.

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:34 pm

I would suggest a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place system.

There should be three roles - Chancellor of the Treasury, Foreign Secretary and Housing Minister. Chancellor gets to control shops and set prices. Foreign Secretary gets to control war status and exiles. Housing Minister gets to control who owns property. The first place gets to assign the roles between the three winners as they see fit. If one of the victors is their enemy, then they have someone working against them within their government and will have to try to assassinate them to get rid of them or place them in the role where they can do least damage. Only the 1st place can access the bank account initially. Any ministerial position and responsibility can be sublet by its controlling minister. If the 1st place wants to have a cabinet reshuffle, they can at any time, and any sublet responsibilities are instantly rescinded.

An election is only triggered if two lesser councillors, or one main councillor is assassinated. If only one lesser minister is assassinated, then the roles can be redistributed between the other two. None of the councillors can be exiled.

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:37 pm

Oh, and get rid of vassaldom, or perhaps require a unanimous council to set it up, whilst permitting a single vote to cancel it.

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by reighbo » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:10 pm

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by Huschpfusch » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:30 pm

Whatever system - one-person or council - here is two ideas for turnover:

1) Candidature for settlement office/holding of office tied to CD Key so no player can have multiple characters in office accross server. People should be playing politics with their main character.
Also there should probably be a cooldown if they drop their main character out of political office and run any of their characters for office elsewhere. This cooldown would be to prevent a scenario where a person leaves the UD political scene and holds office on surface while their old player-associates are still running the UD show - because that intended or not, would look like ppl are ganging up to bully UD exiles from two angles.

2) Holding of office could be limited to 2 consecutive terms of office, each term lasting X period of RL time and then a cooldown for election of 1-2 terms. This would guarantee a new face in office for at least one term. So even the most popular character would have to try build up a successor for interim. And that interim when voted in could potentially become too popular resulting in infight in faction.

-----
Just as a footnote since it touches on the subject of election (to players): Please more campaign RP
Campaign events would be neat. Some gathering where candidates give speeches and have to answer questions. Oh and there should be free food and drink.. and rotten tomatoes probably.
Oh, and ppl should be running around more handing out political propaganda RP items (healing kits, posters, dolls, seeds and whatnot) and there should be posters and stuff on the message boards everywhere. Oh, and prankster should do their thing too of course.
Atm elections just feel very mechanical and boring. (But that´s probably also due to the fact that there are so many of them in short time.)
"Oh look, an unidentified magical wand - let`s just see what it does by randomly using it in battle!"

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by Skibbles » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:26 pm

I think we're missing one of the concepts that brought this topic up anyway, and that is the capability to compete with the other district.

Andunor has a lease office that is specifically designed for the two districts to fight over land. Currently the Sharps is about to control all four (if they don't already) plots of land outside the city. The outpost, silver mines, etc.

There needs to be an equal opportunity between both districts or it'll continue to run roughshod over the Table for ever and ever.

Maybe the lease office needs to be examined once more, or torn down completely, but it is just one example of a sign that something needs to change and I don't think doubling down on the same system is the right way to approach it.

Unless the Sharps is changed to whatever new system the Table moves to so everyone suffers equally.

Designing a new system that is made to fail with built-in infighting cannot compete with stability. Without tangible competition between both districts things stagnate.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by dominantdrowess » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:40 pm

^^ This is a very important point. ^^

And is something those not directly involved in administration (and paying attention to it while in office -- because of the long periods between bids) often miss. This is something I used to talk about with Anatida~ (I think IC? And I think once or twice OOC?)

There is NO WAY ... for a chaos system ... to be able to compete with a stability system. At all. It doesn't even come close. =/ Even if it was a 25% difference, it'd be the same effect ... but it isn't: It completely wipes out the treasury every time there is a regime change. And it's already well past the breaking point. And there becomes literally zero advantage to being Citizens of The Devil's Table once The Sharps completely eclipses it and takes over all city resources.

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by Anatida » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:28 pm

I am going to offer just a couple of points about how the current three councilor system works, because I've read a few posts that don't seem to understand it. (which is understandable, if you've never actually been a part of it).
  • 1) A single councilor, or even two resigning does not trigger an election. A PC actually has to go to the herald and "make a leadership challenge". Resignations do make this option possible, but the election is not automatic.

    2) The Sharps owns so much of the auctionable land at the moment because of IC actions, and IC inaction on the part of the PCs involved (not just the Devil's Table PCs). 1) Devil's Table did not have enough gold to make decent bids. 2) Two election terms passed where there was only a single councilor actually doing anything - and others were not interested in even bidding on those properties. [Reap what you sow]

    3) It is beyond my experience, but I am told that assassinating a councilor removes them from office. I do not know if that automatically triggers an election or if it reverts to #1.
I have read a lot of great points regarding moving to a single councilor system. However, while the three-councilor system does have issues, it also functions the way it does, and is chaotic due to IC actions of the PCs involved. Meaning - if it is the ROLEPLAY of those involved to keep the system unstable, or to use the system to keep the district in chaos and undergoing election after election - then why would we place a mechanical system in place that negates roleplay?

To stay on topic, perhaps a bit of mixing from some of the ideas here.

- What if people ran for a specific role? IE: Head Councilor, Treasury, Real Estate, etc.

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by reighbo » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:32 pm

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by Skibbles » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:47 pm

My point about dealing with the leasing office is that, due to the precarious nature of the Table's political structure, any leading characters will not be donating their own coin towards the leases simply because they can't be guaranteed they'll be a majority holder in two week's time.

The specific structure demands you have 66% of the power, because the last councilor is almost invariably shut out completely.

It's not the source of the gold I was talking about, but the initiative of the leadership to spend it and actually be the ones to benefit from the investment.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by reighbo » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:14 am

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by dominantdrowess » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:18 am

It isn't a circular debate. People are progressing it.

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by Skibbles » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:22 am

No worries. It is a debate! A friendly one, I hope.

I am talking about the mechanics and how it specifically relates to investment and return. The three councilor system is specifically designed to have a high turnover rate - whether through election, frustrating burnout, or gridlock.

This is mechanically not a system worth investing personal coin in via the leasing hall.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by reighbo » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:03 am

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by Skibbles » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:40 am

I've never seen the three party system work well unless all three councilors simply ceded all their power to a single representative with total control, and I strongly suspect that's why the rest of the server already enjoys this benefit - and again, you can see the results in action and it has a track record of being simply better in overall number of players involved and clearly being able to out compete more retrograde systems like the council. The facts are already here.

Your example is Grond, I think, so it sounds like this current system only works every handful of years which is not ideal in the slightest.

The last time I ran the Table, about four years ago now, was with a super majority and total power through this method. For better or worse the results still continue to this day, but if I had to deal with the council and gridlock and voting and all that goes along with it I wouldn't have given it a second glance because it is simply too frustrating and grating to deal with and leads to a very unrewarding experience for everyone involved whether they're the winners or the losers.

The council system, in theory, works like you say. I'm talking about practice, and track record. We can see the results.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by reighbo » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:15 am

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Re: Devil's Table Potential Goverment System Brainstorm

Post by Skibbles » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:33 am

I'm having trouble figuring out the points you're trying to make.

It is clear the server underwent a major overhaul for all settlements with the singular exception to the Table which clearly suffers from inaction and endless corruption.

I suggest this happened for a reason, and that there's a net benefit to every settlement that no longer has to deal with these mechanical hurtles which has been increasingly apparent for at least two years. I cannot rightly understand your counterpoint, nor the facts presented to support it.

Edited for clarity.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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