Devil's Table Councilor/Writ System

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Skibbles
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Re: Devil's Table Councilor/Writ System

Post by Skibbles » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:23 pm

The problem is that there's too many elections and not enough running the actual district, not that there's isn't enough elections.

The district should be ruled by whoever is willing to put in the work and time to run it (Drow or not), not by characters who happened to get a few leftover votes and then get powers they won't log in to use.

Typically at the head of every faction is a very active player surrounded by lots of RP, but the council system hamstrings that very player with the dead weight of a few hangers on which leads to stagnancy and ultimately very little governance and roleplay beyond snarky anonymous board messages.

Also it should be mentioned that the switch to a single party system in the Table has been communicated and roleplayed around for over a month now.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

WinkinBlinkin
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Re: Devil's Table Councilor/Writ System

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:26 pm

A month is nothing. A change is forever.

Old Soul
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Re: Devil's Table Councilor/Writ System

Post by Old Soul » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:27 pm

In my opinion, there are a lot of issues here mostly specific to the drow playerbase, that should be addressed but cannot be solved simply or solely by changing council mechanics. I think the underlying issue is a mindset that a stable settlement requires eliminating the opposition through exile.

I see some positives to the council system. I think the best political RP occurs when there are two dominant groups both with a sound chance of winning a council seat and both vying to be recognized as the top power. With 3 seats on the council, ideally imo, both groups have to encourage a third faction to not only grow enough to be capable of winning a seat but also to support their ideals. This leads to the intrigue/cooperation and inclusion/opposition RP that the underdark thrives on and that makes drow RP so special.

I agree there are also some major drawbacks to the council system. The system rarely works as described above and it is certainly more time consuming than having a single leader with complete settlement powers. The most glaring issues noted here involves the blatant meta that is often used to ‘control the district.’ There were some points made about using ooc coordination to combat presumed ooc tactics. I’m reading from others that OOC is required during the Devil's Table elections. That’s certainly an issue.

I don’t mean to point the finger or suggest anyone is currently doing anything wrong and I’m sure it wasn’t meant this way: but Im also concerned there is a potential to read a small part of this argument as, “My friends and I surely represent the majority, we're the loudest on discord. We don’t agree with X player and we can’t exile X player because they have enough support to win a seat, we don’t want to continue to RP with them, so change the mechanics to make it easy for us to exclude them.” Now I don’t know the IC background, it’s just as likely as not that X player deserves an exile and exiling X player would be best for the server. But it’s a slippery slope and I believe changing the system to unitary won’t decrease the amount of ooc being used but it will make it much easier to exclude others to the detriment of overall RP. Based on Spyres post it looks like the dm team is on top of things regarding unfair mechanical voting, that's really great. I’m skeptical however that the dm team can (or should have to) babysit the devils table every time there's a potential power shift.

My suggestion then, sorry I didn’t post this in the suggestion forum Rwby, would be to remove exiling from the underdark. The UD is small enough that an exile often leads to the player/faction giving up and moving on, rather than continuing to contribute to RP. Let people RP the way they want to without the fear and stress of being excluded. Opposition creates great RP and there are plenty of great ways to handle IC conflicts without mechanics. Let the dm team handle it when someone becomes a detriment.

I’ll also add a +1 to the ideas of a new district and incorporating nobility into the settlement system.

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dominantdrowess
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Re: Devil's Table Councilor/Writ System

Post by dominantdrowess » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:40 pm

I think removing exiling is a terrible idea that leaves PvP as the go-to for solving issues. The only time I exile people, is when other solutions don't solve the problem. Further, we're talking about what people do that damage the ability of the district to function BECAUSE they have exile immunity within the system, just by being a counselor... and nothing you said addresses that at all.

They steal signs, and you can't banish them, and they refuse to stop when confronted. So they get PvPed. Unless you are going to bar people from PvPing -- which will not assist the majority view of the Underdark, I might add, and add to the problem of having fewer problem solving tools -- then this issue keeps going.

We've literally put out hit-notices on third-party councilors who consider themselves above the law to steal district placeables and message boards before. These things are an ongoing problem with the three-party system.

My recommendation, if we're forced to keep the three-party system ... is to make it so that there isn't a new election unless two councilors resign (and hense nobody can sign writs). Allowing the third-party to continuously cause problems for the working government and forcing continuous elections (even if it's a different 3rd counselor every time doing it) is the problem.

Elections are happening so frequently, even though the majority of the council remains in place for each one: And that isn't okay.

It is expressly because these individuals perform acts that make them unpopular that they are pushed out of government, which makes including them in government because they managed to get 5 votes, is precisely what is likely to cause another government to lose popularity and power: I.E. Legitimacy.... because often times they were voted into power expressly to counter these of political catastrophies.

It is ALSO known that people will sometimes make characters expressly to fill gaps, or perceived gaps, and prop up ailing settlements that have fallen by the wayside-- as well as making characters and factions to counter trends voiced as undesirable by majorities: Because that is where political power comes from.
Last edited by dominantdrowess on Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.

JediMindTrix
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Re: Devil's Table Councilor/Writ System

Post by JediMindTrix » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:41 pm

Rwby wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:24 pm
and the fact it is currently run by drow.
I really can't think of a time it wasn't.

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Huschpfusch
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Re: Devil's Table Councilor/Writ System

Post by Huschpfusch » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:51 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:23 pm
The district should be ruled by whoever is willing to put in the work and time to run it (Drow or not), not by characters who happened to get a few leftover votes and then get powers they won't log in to use.
Link the 3-seats to the actual vote-turn-out to actually reflect support and strength of government-elected:
>66% of votes for all three seats
34-66% for top seat and one government job seat
34% for top seat

This way If they winner only manage a lousy 34% support from other players in that district/settlement the government will look poor like it deserves. If they manage a >66% they would get all the seats and power to do what they want because thats what a +66% of ppl actually want.
"Oh look, an unidentified magical wand - let`s just see what it does by randomly using it in battle!"

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dominantdrowess
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Re: Devil's Table Councilor/Writ System

Post by dominantdrowess » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:56 pm

That's a cool idea.

If you got a percentage of power based on a percentage of voter turn-out, that'd be cool~

So if one leader got 80% of the vote, they could override the council... and you'd need 51% of the power to get anything done -- likewise, it should not trigger a new election unless 51% of the council's power quits. And 51% is all that should be required for writs...

So if people -want- to elect a single ruler, they're capable... and if multiple large factions rise? They can have similar power without the meta-game vote-splitting.

We want other means for a government to exist that do not involve "compromising with what is both crazy and easily defeatable".
Last edited by dominantdrowess on Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WinkinBlinkin
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Re: Devil's Table Councilor/Writ System

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:58 pm

Let losing one councillor force a new election, just don't suspend powers of the remaining two whilst the election takes place.

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dominantdrowess
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Re: Devil's Table Councilor/Writ System

Post by dominantdrowess » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:01 pm

WinkinBlinkin wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:58 pm
Let losing one councillor force a new election, just don't suspend powers of the remaining two whilst the election takes place.
That's exactly the system we have, and it isn't acceptable. That's the point of this thread. It should not trigger a new election for the councilors who did not resign. Only for the chair that was opened.

It's completely obvious that the table district does not compete as a settlement. People defending the system either don't play down here, or simply see stagnancy as a viable strategy to keep themselves relevant. Meanwhile? People claiming 'the winner just exiles everyone' ... The board has fewer exiles on it than it had in the previous administrations. It is not the problem. Removing the ability to exile people just creates more PvP.

Exile is a proven method of protecting signs and district placeables against repeat theft, as the thefts tend to stop once you exile the person everyone and NPCs saw doing it. Removing that, or adding additional problems like making it so you can't exile anyone just allows a minority to prevent the ruling party from having a long-term impact on culture and change through placable statues, signs, and message-boards: The culture that other settlements enjoy.

The fifth time you replace a leadership statue, is certainly time you need to start banishing the faction you watched steal it.

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Re: Devil's Table Councilor/Writ System

Post by DM Chiliad » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:18 pm

What did I say?

Locked.

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