Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

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Opustus
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Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Opustus » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:56 pm

Unarmed monk is one of the classic D&D types, but I've noticed that it doesn't have much relevance on Arelith. I guess the dearth of unarmed monks pertains mostly to building, where DEX is considered the superior option for monks, thus favouring quarterstaff and kama builds over all else. Has this been a conscious design choice by the team, to aim for a lesser amount of unarmed monks in the world, or has this tendency happened over time and by accident?

I'm opening this thread to discuss the matter. Do other people think there are too few unarmed monks? Should unarmed monk be made more appealing by mechanical or stylistic solutions? To be clear, I am not driving a certain change to enable unarmed monks mechanically, but I am curious to hear what people think about the matter as such.
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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by msterswrdsmn » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:07 pm

To be honest, I haven't seen that many longer-lasting monks period, either armed or unarmed. It just doesn't seem to be that appealing of a class compared to weaponmasters or spellcasters.

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Alox » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:49 pm

The monk AC needs a boost.

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Peppermint » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:57 pm

Beamdog's bizarre monk nerf was the nail in the coffin.

They definitely do need help.

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Opustus » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:21 pm

What nerf is that?
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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Dalenger » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:30 pm

Monks have always been in a bad place. While they're a very survivable class (SR, speed, predisposed to go after E Dodge) they have really poor offense. 3/4 AB, poor weapon choices for unarmed (plus you have to give up a bracer slot), very few cookies, etc. With all their attacks/round monks have really cool graphics, but can't hit much. When they do hit they do a whopping 20 or 30 damage.

Monks need a complete rework. I was hoping beamdog would do something with this, but instead decides to throw one of the monk's semi-decent gimmicks into a shredder.
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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Miskol » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:50 pm

Perhaps some new monk equipment can be introduced for higher AB and AC on unarmed monks then? We've seen some very potent items created for assassins and shadow dancers, etc.

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by sad_zav » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:34 pm

As it stands, with a monk's survival capabilities, they shouldn't be strong offensively.

As such, I think a toggle of sorts would help them.

Maybe something like trading 10% move speed for 1 AB. The standard 20/10 monk/rogue could potentially sacrifice up to 60% movement speed for 6 more AB. I think this is a worthy sacrifice, but I don't know how feasible it is coding-wise
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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Rwby » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:43 pm

Can't some classes just be good at some things, while other classes are good at others? Monks are amazing scouts, and can forfill several other roles.

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Tarkus the dog » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:45 pm

the problem with the monks is that they are very boring to play despite of all the strengths of the class, unless you live solely to be a nuisance to someone then with a monk you're right at home. any direct buff to the class could make them a little bit too strong. a complete overhaul is instead likely in order, but If I'm to take a pick from all the classes in the game that could use some tinkering then I'd briefly direct the camera at the dwarven defender.

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Cortex » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:32 pm

Monk is a really weird class because the uncapped movement speed is one of the strongest features in the game, so giving them any buff is a big risk, at least until the movement speed is nerfed or removed.
:)

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:58 pm

Opustus wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:21 pm
What nerf is that?
Beamdog reduced the duration of Stun Fist from 3 rounds to 1.

In regard to your original post, there hasn't been a conscious decision to rein in unarmed monks. Monk class features remain hardcoded, making it a difficult class to work with.

And, as Cortex pointed out, simply having Monk levels on your character sheet uncaps the normal 150% move speed limitation on most characters. This limits what boons can be offered to monks, as matching those improvements with uncapped mobility is dangerous.
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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Opustus » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:03 pm

To emphasise, this thread is about balance insofar as it affects the prevalence of (unarmed) monks. I think monks are otherwise fairly well represented in Arelith, I see monastic types all the time. Mechanically speaking, monk has great synergy with a lot of classes, but scales fairly poorly on its own. I would not go so far as to clamour for a total overhaul of the class; suggestions like these are stated as obvious truths, which conveys a statement that all other considerations are moot or worse.

Yellowcateyes, class features such as monk speed and AC? A couple of mechanical suggestions, off the top of my head, could be to enable Devastating critical specifically with unarmed, making it a horse of its own. Or to give them free Improved ki strike 4 and 5 with epic monk levels to help their job against stoneskins and premonitions.
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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Umskiptar » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:16 pm

It's hard to buff unarmed monks at the spot they are in. They don't need AC buffs because they are already one of the best tanks in game. They could use some AB buffs but then there's a risk of them being too strong. After all, no other class gets as many attacks per round as monks and imagine dealing with those with all that AB?

It's not like the Beamdog nerf was a big hit to monks. They can still spam stunning fists while their target is flatfooted. In fact, killing someone with a single stunning fist was probably too much before the nerf hit.

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by RamblerTeo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:41 pm

Thank you, Opustus. Very cool!

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by msterswrdsmn » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:57 pm

Random ideas;

Make Q-Palm a skill that uses a cooldown, rather than once per rest. Give it a considerable cooldown, that gets slightly shorter with more monk levels.

Passively increase the number of stunning fist uses/DC with monk levels. Like a free imp. stunning fist feat every 7 monk levels

Both of these benefit unarmed monks, and only unarmed monks. It wouldn't be terribly overpowering, as they still need to actually hit the target for either of these to work.

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by ReverentBlade » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:05 pm

Going 20 unarmed monk feels pretty unrewarding. The gloves especially are really kinda sad compared to other end game gear. I only have a single character on Arelith and I devote all my play time to her story, but I've been close to giving up several times because mechanically they are just so lackluster.

When dumb trash spiders in the forest have +38 fort saves, I don't even bother having q-palm or stun fist on the quickbars. You just can't gear for wisdom enough to get your DCs to a useful place without sacrificing your already low AB into the dumpster. The stun fist duration nerf doesn't really make all that difference, because we never get the stupid ability to work in the first place.

More Stunning fist uses wouldn't help anyone because they don't work in the first place. 1 fishing is lame.

My biggest beef, however, is actually the lack of innate uncanny dodge. You can't drink potions, use class abilities, or heal yourself without immediately dying. You -must- multiclass in order to be viable, and with most builds saving the rogue dip until late in your leveling, its really, really painful.

Also, the 20/+1 damage reduction from Perfect Self is a joke. Might as well not exist, since you're not getting hit with mundane weapons at level 20.

My wish list:

* Better gloves that have some stats on them to make up for losing an entire equipment slot. Maybe something only monk tailors can make (that doesn't need ridiculously rare mats). Also, smooth out the curve of the crafted gloves. Literally only the adamantine ones are viable. Its all +1 trash that suddenly jumps up to +3.

* Uncanny Dodge at level 14.

* Rework Stunning Fists into mini-smites that maybe give one or two AB/damage to an attack.

* Rework Q-Palm into a powerful DOT effect instead of a save or die.

* Give all languages at level 17 to represent Tongue of the Sun and Moon. Might as well get some RP buffs for taking such a bad class this far.

* Up the base skill points a little for same reasons as above.

* Make the Perfect Self transformation more impactful. Maybe some 5/- or 10/- damage reduction that is indifferent to how magical the weapons are, and their food and water percents get locked in at 100% or something.

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Twily » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:08 pm

As someone who has played a variety of monks up to high-epics, I definitely think they do need a bit of love, although not much.
Their AC has the potential to be far higher than many other classes, epic dodge is amazing, and monk goes really nicely with a few levels in a variety of other classes. Fighter, Rogue, Shadowdancer, etc.

Unarmed damage isn't really that bad with the adamantine knuckles, once you get yourself the 1d20 base damage.(although I'm admittedly used to a damage boost from Fighter, Rogue or similar; damage for pures might need help)

There's only three huge weak spots I've seen, no uncanny dodge, low AB and extremely punishing to go pure.


A simple fix that I've seen many servers do:

Minor buff:
Give Uncanny Dodge (how is it barbarians have this and monks don't?)

A more major buff:
Making Ki Strike add to unarmed AB.

Additionally, to reward going pure, you could give KiStrike 4 at L24ish monk and KiStrike 5 (and maybe the pre-reqs for EpicDodge) at L28 monk
Last edited by Twily on Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:45 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:12 pm

Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm are both hardcoded. Until Beamdog opens up the code and / or Arelith goes hak, it is unlikely we will see changes to those abilities.
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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by ReverentBlade » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:16 pm

There are ways around that. Script that drains all uses from them to functionally kill the old ability, and then give the replacement ability through dash commands, or something like the wizard infini-casts. Code might be sloppy and ugly, but its a far cry from un-doable.

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Sockss » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:22 pm

Cortex wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:32 pm
Monk is a really weird class because the uncapped movement speed is one of the strongest features in the game, so giving them any buff is a big risk, at least until the movement speed is nerfed or removed.
+1
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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:28 pm

ReverentBlade wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:16 pm
There are ways around that. Script that drains all uses from them to functionally kill the old ability, and then give the replacement ability through dash commands, or something like the wizard infini-casts. Code might be sloppy and ugly, but its a far cry from un-doable.
Yes, it is possible to hack a solution that is clunky, un-intuitive, and results in an activated ability that is not incorporated into normal attack rolls. Possible does not equate to likely. Better solutions will be available when the code is un-hardcoded or Arelith is making use of a hak auto-downloader.
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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Twily » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:38 pm

Sockss wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:22 pm
Cortex wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:32 pm
Monk is a really weird class because the uncapped movement speed is one of the strongest features in the game, so giving them any buff is a big risk, at least until the movement speed is nerfed or removed.
+1
I do agree with this, Movement speed is one of the strongest(and versatile) features in the game, and doing any sort of notable buff could be a pretty big risk:
Although above all I definitely don't want to see the movement speed nerfed or removed.

It's the huge appeal to the class for a majority of the people who play it; it saves so much time and holds so many uses.
It is and has always been a key part of the class, like a fighters armor proficiency, rogue's sneak attacks, or a bards bardsong.


If a change that alters the speed is considered, I feel it'd be best added as a path for monks that is acquirable in-game at the monastery; so that it's optional.

PErhaps adding changes in the form of mechanically supported orders, allowing monks to choose from several; similarly to harpers.
IE: Stunning Fist has OnHitWounding for Disciples of the Long Death.
IE2: +con, 5/-dr, gain barb-like str boost while drunk, no stat reductions from being drunk, speed removal for disciples of Saint Dionysus

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Jack Oat » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:53 am

ReverentBlade wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:05 pm
My wish list:

* Better gloves that have some stats on them to make up for losing an entire equipment slot. Maybe something only monk tailors can make (that doesn't need ridiculously rare mats). Also, smooth out the curve of the crafted gloves. Literally only the adamantine ones are viable. Its all +1 trash that suddenly jumps up to +3.
Agreed. Losing an entire piece makes it more worthwile to go kama for anything under 16 Monk.
ReverentBlade wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:05 pm
* Uncanny Dodge at level 14.
I'd say earlier than 14. Give it at like 7, so there's a definite investment without it being so late.
ReverentBlade wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:05 pm
* Rework Stunning Fists into mini-smites that maybe give one or two AB/damage to an attack.
Even with Stunning Fist being hardcoded I would imagine it's possible to do some sort of "on-use" attachment for this. Could be wrong, I don't do coding. But I like the idea.
ReverentBlade wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:05 pm
* Rework Q-Palm into a powerful DOT effect instead of a save or die.
DOT?
ReverentBlade wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:05 pm
* Give all languages at level 17 to represent Tongue of the Sun and Moon. Might as well get some RP buffs for taking such a bad class this far.
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it needs THAT much of a boost.
ReverentBlade wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:05 pm
* Up the base skill points a little for same reasons as above.
They get 4 + INT, but don't have nearly the range of a Ranger or Assassin for skills they can take. I don't know if they need that sort of boon.
ReverentBlade wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:05 pm
* Make the Perfect Self transformation more impactful. Maybe some 5/- or 10/- damage reduction that is indifferent to how magical the weapons are, and their food and water percents get locked in at 100% or something.
Given how much of a level investment that is I agree.

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Re: Unarmed monk - a loveless child?

Post by Opustus » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:57 pm

Twily wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:38 pm
PErhaps adding changes in the form of mechanically supported orders, allowing monks to choose from several; similarly to harpers.
IE: Stunning Fist has OnHitWounding for Disciples of the Long Death.
IE2: +con, 5/-dr, gain barb-like str boost while drunk, no stat reductions from being drunk, speed removal for disciples of Saint Dionysus
Kewl!

Could use the few monk orders on Arelith to teach these ways. The techniques could be passed on as knowledge between player characters, even.
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