Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

[JediMindTrix]

I presented a pretty fair means to fairly have the cake and eat it too and also did you just post from two separate accounts in this thread lmao Dirza/flower. playing ball with you here a second, bob the weaponmaster can usually facetank a death spell without wards so uhm what's the issue with him having a weak saving throw?? Not sure I see your point. Did you ignore mine where I offered a best of both worlds alternative so you could just continue to argue for arguments sake?

[flower]

I presented a pretty fair means to fairly have the cake and eat it too and also did you just post from two separate accounts in this thread lmao Dirza/flower. playing ball with you here a second, bob the weaponmaster can usually facetank a death spell without wards so uhm what's the issue with him having a weak saving throw?? Not sure I see your point. Did you ignore mine where I offered a best of both worlds alternative so you could just continue to argue for arguments sake?

There is no issue with him having weak save.

There is issue with characters being able to kill others on one click. Aka casting disable spell. Why would you část a deathspell on meleer with constitution up to sky, when you can drop and get him disabled for three minutes almost? Clarity prevents that as much as death ward. Devastating critical forcing you to "save or die" is for example, disabled in the game entirely.


And my last reply was to Dr. Hazard.

[Rwby]

I presented a pretty fair means to fairly have the cake and eat it too and also did you just post from two separate accounts in this thread lmao Dirza/flower. playing ball with you here a second, bob the weaponmaster can usually facetank a death spell without wards so uhm what's the issue with him having a weak saving throw?? Not sure I see your point. Did you ignore mine where I offered a best of both worlds alternative so you could just continue to argue for arguments sake?

There is no issue with him having weak save.

There is issue with characters being able to kill others on one click. Aka casting disable spell. Why would you část a deathspell on meleer with constitution up to sky, when you can drop and get him disabled for three minutes almost? Clarity prevents that as much as death ward. Devastating critical forcing you to "save or die" is for example, disabled in the game entirely.


And my last reply was to Dr. Hazard.

To play Devil's advocate, the Weapon Master can kill a lot of characters by clicking improved knockdown, and then that's that. Many wizardly builds significantly have to heavily invest in Con [And discipline] specifically just to avoid exactly that. Even then, an unlucky knockdown roll, and you'll spend two rounds on the floor being pummled for upwards of 100hp a hit, from between 4-7 hits a round.

I'm not sure it's fair to go, 'Well we totally can't have wizards getting one click kills!' when fighters can do exactly the same. Clarity is 100% protection, and to a degree, so is Death ward. The only spell that poses a one-click kill comparable to that doable by a weapon master is an implosion.

And remember this is an unwarded, unbuffed, unitemised weapon master. They can be a lot scarier.

[flower]

There aren't only WMs.

And WM gets these saves only after proper gearing. Majority of characters will never hit these saves you talk about.

[Rwby]

If a weapon master can hit said saves after gearing, there's no reason any class in the game can't do the same.

[Shadowy Reality]

I'm not sure it's fair to go, 'Well we totally can't have wizards getting one click kills!' when fighters can do exactly the same. Clarity is 100% protection, and to a degree, so is Death ward. The only spell that poses a one-click kill comparable to that doable by a weapon master is an implosion.

And remember this is an unwarded, unbuffed, unitemised weapon master. They can be a lot scarier.

I have long advocated for the melee damage to be lowered and for disabling spells to have a reroll save in each round. The problem with both is that they are binary in the way they work (same with death spells). You get crit two times, probably dead. You fail that will save twice, probably dead.

Sure the meta would change but I argue that it is better than losing to two consecutive crits or a failed save.

[Cortex]

i LOVE weapon masters

[JediMindTrix]

There is issue with characters being able to kill others on one click. Aka casting disable spell. Why would you část a deathspell on meleer with constitution up to sky, when you can drop and get him disabled for three minutes almost? Clarity prevents that as much as death ward. Devastating critical forcing you to "save or die" is for example, disabled in the game entirely.

yea, and I recognized that when you posted under your dirza account and offered a pretty plain solution that addresses the binary 'it works or it doesn't' and 'you die or you don't' nature of it, which you are plainly ignoring to continue going off about saving throws and now somehow we're discussing weaponmasters.
thread evolution 1 oh fun

[Dr_Hazard89]

My WM can much more easily kill any mage in a single round, than any mage can kill the WM :/

[Hunter548]

My WM can much more easily kill any mage in a single round, than any mage can kill the WM :/

There's a reason anecdotal stuff like this isn't a good thing to base game balance off.

[Cortex]

My WM can much more easily kill any mage in a single round, than any mage can kill the WM :/

There's a reason anecdotal stuff like this isn't a good thing to base game balance off.

elsewise my mages would have multiple WM kills per round and theyd need nerfed right now

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

To those using the argument that clicking one button until kill is unfun therefore enchantment should remain locked forever behind immunity potions that anyone can drink, does this mean my next suggestion should be potions that grant immunity to knockdown for 7 or so rounds with a ten round cooldown and that I'll have your support?

Because it's the same thing, IMO.

Not addressing necromancy/death ward because it only targets a subset of spells of the school (horrid wilting still works just fine). Shadowshield is immunity to necromancy, but is breachable.

[Nitro]

I knockdown was ranged, lasted rounds (or even turns) per level and targeted saves instead of discipline, sure.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I knockdown was ranged, lasted rounds (or even turns) per level and targeted saves instead of discipline, sure.

I believe it is disingenuous to imply that after you KD the mage, they're not going to spend the entire rest of the fight (however long that is) on their back until they're dead - and KD can't be prayed out of. So duration doesn't really change the argument. Range is an interesting qualifier, except the mage has to stand still to cast (the breach that makes you vulnerable) at you.

[flower]

Well you can gear vs KD as much as you can gear versus spells.

30 sklil dip + epic focus 10 plus up to 20 from gear

That is 60 (plus bonuses from str mods) + d20 vs 50 +- +d20 (+16/17 from true strike)

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Well you can gear vs KD as much as you can gear versus spells.

30 sklil dip + epic focus 10 plus up to 20 from gear

That is 60 (plus bonuses from str mods) + d20 vs 50 +- +d20 (+16/17 from true strike)

I'm not debating that, but since you pointed this out, would you agree with me that taking all of those steps you mentioned to resist knockdown is a lot more effort than buying a potion anyone can use (and probably also much cheaper than putting +2 discipline on all your end-game gear)?

I'm not against immunity to mental effects existing. I'm a little against clarity being unbreachable, since it's a made up spell that only exists in NWN (the closest comparable actual spell in the history of D&D with the word clarity in it offers a +4 bonus against said saving throws), and happens to be a level 2/3 spell- low enough to be potioned so that everyone can drink them - at a higher caster level than the caster who sacrificed 3 levels for that discipline dip (because potions check the drinker's character level against dispels).

I will not wall of text about the dispel cap, I made myself a promise about this.

[Cortex]

Apples and oranges, discipline and will.

Any build can easily fit discipline, very few get enough will to warrant ignoring clarity.

[Hunter548]

There's a lot of classes reliant on clarity because they can't get their will save to a level that it's worth bothering to put the effort in, 95% of the time, without crippling themselves in other areas.

Mages, by contrast, can become KD-immune with expenditure of a feat and some space on gear, plus ranks; All easily sacrificable unless you're being a contrarian who goes pure wizard because you're worried about the size of your fireballs.


I mentioned like two pages ago: If you fight someone who's reliant on clarity (Basically any meleer without divine feats or barb rage), just get them to drink a clarity potion and then cast greater sanctuary. The spell lasts longer than a clarity potion's duration when extended, and it has a cooldown, so they can't just chain-drink it. Why is a little bit of clever counterplay like that too hard?

[Dr_Hazard89]

...unless you're being a contrarian who goes pure wizard because you're worried about the size of your fireballs.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Mages, by contrast, can become KD-immune with expenditure of a feat and some space on gear, plus ranks; All easily sacrificable unless you're being a contrarian who goes pure wizard because you're worried about the size of your fireballs.

Said contrarian might also be pure wizard to have better enchanting prowess with longer duration.

Even with the multi-class dip, there is still plenty of opportunity to be knocked down. 33+10 (while we're at it, if it's reasonable a mage has to take an epic feat to reach "immunity" to KD, why shouldn't a meleer have to take epic will?) +20 from gear (and while we're at it, why shouldn't you have to have bonuses to your will on gear? +1 vs will <you can actually do +2> costs not that much more than +2 to a skill). 63 +d20 discipline can definitely still get put on its butt. Calling that immunity is not an honest approach.

It seems to me like there is a whole lot of expectation that one side should have to spend feats and almost every gear slot ("easily sacrificable", to quote) to be immune to KD, and that's totally fine, but then in an inexplicable reversal of logic the same side of the argument follows with "Gear and feats for will? Why should I have to do that? I'll just take this potion of this made up spell."

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I mentioned like two pages ago: If you fight someone who's reliant on clarity (Basically any meleer without divine feats or barb rage), just get them to drink a clarity potion and then cast greater sanctuary. The spell lasts longer than a clarity potion's duration when extended, and it has a cooldown, so they can't just chain-drink it. Why is a little bit of clever counterplay like that too hard?

I'm not debating the viability of that tactic. I've religiously carried extended GSANC on my wizard forever, for more reasons than just this.

I will, however, debate the cleverness of forcing every enchantment focused mage to prepare one spell that they must use as soon as a potion is used to not automatically suck at their chosen school. I actually call that easy, not clever (although it was an improvement from just being able to chug a potion of clarity continually)!

Remember, I don't sit on the side of the fence that thinks enchantment is worthless- quite the opposite. I'm just attempting to address what I perceive as the mechanical flaws that seem to make other people feel that way. The simplest place to start seems to be the made up spell that is lower level than anything else that grants immunity (in a server environment that has modified other low level spells to remove immunity for the same line of logic).

[Cortex]

Did you not see my post? Very few builds can get any decent will even if they were to take every will feat and save gear, you do not get the will a will save class gets in 20 levels by dipping 3 levels into it. A mage only needs a level 3-4 dip (which gives them a lot more than just discipline) and skill points that can all be invested at once to max effect, and a feat. Not to mention that, using your own number, 63+d20 averages out at 74, that is not immunity but I assure you that most characters with that much discipline won't be KDed in their life time after acquiring that many points.

If I were to play along with the faulty comparison that other builds need to dedicate themselves for will resilience...

Taking the vanilla WM with 8 WIS, they cap out at 10 will or so that dips into bard instead of rogue(which is a niche dip focused on saves instead)

Epic Will +4
Spellcraft +9 (46=30 ranks+14 items+2 INT modifier)

For 23 will, which is horrible. And even comparing to a mage again, it's more dedication than the mage because non-casters tend to be more feat/skill starved, being able to dump into spellcraft is a specialization and not something every build manages.

Repeating myself: Apples and oranges.

[Rwby]

Did you not see my post? Very few builds can get any decent will even if they were to take every will feat and save gear, you do not get the will a will save class gets in 20 levels by dipping 3 levels into it. A mage only needs a level 3-4 dip (which gives them a lot more than just discipline) and skill points that can all be invested at once to max effect, and a feat. Not to mention that, using your own number, 63+d20 averages out at 74, that is not immunity but I assure you that most characters with that much discipline won't be KDed in their life time after acquiring that many points.

If I were to play along with the faulty comparison that other builds need to dedicate themselves for will resilience...

Taking the vanilla WM with 8 WIS, they cap out at 10 will or so that dips into bard instead of rogue(which is a niche dip focused on saves instead)

Epic Will +4
Spellcraft +9 (46=30 ranks+14 items+2 INT modifier)

For 23 will, which is horrible. And even comparing to a mage again, it's more dedication than the mage because non-casters tend to be more feat/skill starved, being able to dump into spellcraft is a specialization and not something every build manages.

Repeating myself: Apples and oranges.

It feels like you've forgotten to include gear, here.... That could easily be another +14 Will, + 9 Spellcraft, + Epic Will, + Iron will, That's 37 Will.

Then there's protection from alignment for another +2/+4

[Cortex]

What I didn't include was +1 uni/will items, I did take into account +2 SC gear. Uni items are either runic/5% and fortitude is far more important than will on items. Iron will adds a +2 if you can afford a pre-epic feat (which is not a commodity most builds have, and even if they do there's several more useful feats, even Strong Soul is better).

If you manage to get ten items with +1 universal after mindlessly grinding for millions of gold and runes, it's bumped to 33 will(or 35 if you take iron will...), and pushing it even more with PfA (which may require two casts to get +2 vs neutrals) to 37, which still barely compares to 63 discipline. Not to mention, any will attacking mage will also cast Mind Fog which is a big debuffer for will. The only class that can debuff discipline is a very high level bard.

Lastly... I'll just look at all the work he had to go through to have a decent will save. A pre-epic feat, an epic feat, maxing a secondary skill on starved skill builds, millions of gold, and they still don't have the same measure of safety from will based spells that a mage has against KD, when they can easily fit discipline and an epic feat, and take much less gold for gear.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I saw your post, Cortex, but Rwby illustrates that you've failed to address my point- namely;

It seems to me like there is a whole lot of expectation that one side should have to spend feats and almost every gear slot ("easily sacrificable", to quote) to be immune to KD, and that's totally fine, but then in an inexplicable reversal of logic the same side of the argument follows with "Gear and feats for will? Why should I have to do that? I'll just take this potion of this made up spell."

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Claiming it's a 'harder' sacrifice is a subjective statement, especially since that 3 level dip you're encouraging removes an extra epic bonus feat from a pure level 30 caster.

Is the crux of your stance that melee shouldn't have to make the sacrifices casters do? I'm not trying to be difficult so much as comprehend the idea behind "gear/build sacrifice for everything, except for will, that's too much to ask!"

Claiming fort is more important is irrelevant. That's the nature of sacrificing gear to compensate for a weakness rather than being optimized in your desired concept. How does this not go both ways?

[PinataPlethora]

It feels like you've forgotten to include gear, here.... That could easily be another +14 Will, + 9 Spellcraft, + Epic Will, + Iron will, That's 37 Will.

Then there's protection from alignment for another +2/+4

"Easily." And what does that +14 Will cost you in terms of equipment potential?

I'm playing a character with Will as the lowest save, and it cost me a lot of skill space to get a lot less Will than that. What you're suggesting sounds like an option for characters with only one stat dependency and a very narrow skill set.