Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

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Cortex
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Cortex » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:32 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:27 pm
I saw your post, Cortex, but Rwby illustrates that you've failed to address my point- namely;
It seems to me like there is a whole lot of expectation that one side should have to spend feats and almost every gear slot ("easily sacrificable", to quote) to be immune to KD, and that's totally fine, but then in an inexplicable reversal of logic the same side of the argument follows with "Gear and feats for will? Why should I have to do that? I'll just take this potion of this made up spell."

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Claiming it's a 'harder' sacrifice is a subjective statement, especially since that 3 level dip you're encouraging removes an extra epic bonus feat from a pure level 30 caster.

Is the crux of your stance that melee shouldn't have to make the sacrifices casters do? I'm not trying to be difficult so much as comprehend the idea behind "gear/build sacrifice for everything, except for will, that's too much to ask!"

Claiming fort is more important is irrelevant. That's the nature of sacrificing gear to compensate for a weakness rather than being optimized in your desired concept. How does this not go both ways?
Ranger gives you a free epic spell focus and discipline. So it doesn't remove an extra epic spell. And after showing you the difference between the dedication a non mage needs for will saves compared to the dedication a mage needs for good discipline... then I don't think you want to acknowledge it. It's not subjective, it's factual.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Sockss » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:55 pm

A will save is still desirable despite clarity potions.

Clarity potions don't change that, they just give a 'brief' bit of counterplay to a mage that would otherwise destroy most builds most of the time.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:06 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:24 pm

Said contrarian might also be pure wizard to have better enchanting prowess with longer duration.

Even with the multi-class dip, there is still plenty of opportunity to be knocked down. 33+10 (while we're at it, if it's reasonable a mage has to take an epic feat to reach "immunity" to KD, why shouldn't a meleer have to take epic will?) +20 from gear (and while we're at it, why shouldn't you have to have bonuses to your will on gear? +1 vs will <you can actually do +2> costs not that much more than +2 to a skill). 63 +d20 discipline can definitely still get put on its butt. Calling that immunity is not an honest approach.

It seems to me like there is a whole lot of expectation that one side should have to spend feats and almost every gear slot ("easily sacrificable", to quote) to be immune to KD, and that's totally fine, but then in an inexplicable reversal of logic the same side of the argument follows with "Gear and feats for will? Why should I have to do that? I'll just take this potion of this made up spell."

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I'm not debating the viability of that tactic. I've religiously carried extended GSANC on my wizard forever, for more reasons than just this.

I will, however, debate the cleverness of forcing every enchantment focused mage to prepare one spell that they must use as soon as a potion is used to not automatically suck at their chosen school. I actually call that easy, not clever (although it was an improvement from just being able to chug a potion of clarity continually)!

Remember, I don't sit on the side of the fence that thinks enchantment is worthless- quite the opposite. I'm just attempting to address what I perceive as the mechanical flaws that seem to make other people feel that way. The simplest place to start seems to be the made up spell that is lower level than anything else that grants immunity (in a server environment that has modified other low level spells to remove immunity for the same line of logic).
1) 33 ranks + 1-2 strength (Casting bulls strength on yourself just to carry stuff whenever you rest is fairly standard for mages in my experience) + 18ish off gear + 10 ESF puts you at 63, averaging 73 after the d20. Considering the "average" attack roll for a decently built WM with IKD is going to be 59-61 (depending on race, feats, etc), you certainly are near immune. Hell, you've even got a decent shot at avoiding it if they pop a true strike. None of this requires 5% gear (or even dropping anything from gear), and if a wizard you still have plenty of room to fit four ESFs, two metamagics, craft wand, and then two random epic feats to spend as you wish (EDK, Mummy Dust, Hellball, Gruin, etc etc etc etc), plus having plenty of skill points to go around.

That's different than the sort of will save a lot of classes can get. Let's take a bog standard rogue (again, as an example); 24 rogue, 6 fighter. He's going to change from the standard, however, and pick up Iron Will, Epic Will and Luck of Heroes. To do that, he's going to drop Ambidexterity, TWF, and probably either Armor Skin or Epic Prowess; He loses a substantial chunk of his ability to do damage, as well as generally compete with his melee peers. In return, he gets a will save high enough to not need clarity, right?

Wrong.

He's got a base will save of ten. Call it 6-7 from max'd spellcraft, and then another 7 from iron will, epic will and Luck of Heroes This puts at a whopping, mage-defying... 24 will. A 45% chance to save vs a hold monster (usually) that the mage can throw multiple of per round. A 25% chance to survive a weird (Which becomes a concern if he can't immunize against it with clarity). Add another 2ish points for an owl's wisdom wand, and he's still having trouble being safe against this wizard, and that's ignoring the possibility of the mage dropping a mind fog on him to lower his will save further.

Now sure -- he can wear some will save gear. But that involves either a) Dropping something else he needs off his gear (Probably fortitude saves, opening him up to other spells) or b) Getting a full set of 5% or rune gear.

A substantially higher amount of sacrifice on the part of the rogue just to have a worse-than-coinflip shot at not dying to a mage in a single spell.

2) If you choose to go pure wizard over 26/4, that's your choice and I 100% think you are free to make that. It certainly doesn't bother me. However, the server shouldn't be balanced around you intentionally making suboptimal build choices, anymore than it should be balanced around absurdities like charisma based monks.

3) Sacrificing fort for will is not irrelevant because you end up vulnerable to the same mage you're trying to immunize against.

4) You need will saves for things other than spells. Without clarity, this hypothetical rogue would still be fairly vulnerable to, say, fear auras or other monster abilities. Loss of clarity affects more than just PvP.

5) Mages absolutely do not need this buff.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:54 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:06 pm
1) 33 ranks + 1-2 strength (Casting bulls strength on yourself just to carry stuff whenever you rest is fairly standard for mages in my experience) + 18ish off gear + 10 ESF puts you at 63, averaging 73 after the d20. Considering the "average" attack roll for a decently built WM with IKD is going to be 59-61 (depending on race, feats, etc), you certainly are near immune. Hell, you've even got a decent shot at avoiding it if they pop a true strike. None of this requires 5% gear (or even dropping anything from gear), and if a wizard you still have plenty of room to fit four ESFs, two metamagics, craft wand, and then two random epic feats to spend as you wish (EDK, Mummy Dust, Hellball, Gruin, etc etc etc etc), plus having plenty of skill points to go around.

That's different than the sort of will save a lot of classes can get. Let's take a bog standard rogue (again, as an example); 24 rogue, 6 fighter. He's going to change from the standard, however, and pick up Iron Will, Epic Will and Luck of Heroes. To do that, he's going to drop Ambidexterity, TWF, and probably either Armor Skin or Epic Prowess; He loses a substantial chunk of his ability to do damage, as well as generally compete with his melee peers. In return, he gets a will save high enough to not need clarity, right?

Wrong.

He's got a base will save of ten. Call it 6-7 from max'd spellcraft, and then another 7 from iron will, epic will and Luck of Heroes This puts at a whopping, mage-defying... 24 will. A 45% chance to save vs a hold monster (usually) that the mage can throw multiple of per round. A 25% chance to survive a weird (Which becomes a concern if he can't immunize against it with clarity). Add another 2ish points for an owl's wisdom wand, and he's still having trouble being safe against this wizard, and that's ignoring the possibility of the mage dropping a mind fog on him to lower his will save further.

Now sure -- he can wear some will save gear. But that involves either a) Dropping something else he needs off his gear (Probably fortitude saves, opening him up to other spells) or b) Getting a full set of 5% or rune gear.

A substantially higher amount of sacrifice on the part of the rogue just to have a worse-than-coinflip shot at not dying to a mage in a single spell.
Edit: What happened in my brain didn't accurately reflect your post, so I revised this. The numbers are accurate, but in your example there is a chance of success for the meleer, which is removed entirely for the duration of a clarity potion from the other side. See the reference to KD immunity potion further down.
2) If you choose to go pure wizard over 26/4, that's your choice and I 100% think you are free to make that. It certainly doesn't bother me. However, the server shouldn't be balanced around you intentionally making suboptimal build choices, anymore than it should be balanced around absurdities like charisma based monks.
I don't disagree with your stance here. What I have been trying desperately to point out for the last several posts, however, is that you (in this case, and others, in prior ones) disregard your own logic when applied to the other side of this situation.

If you choose to go 20/7/3 or 26/4 with 8 wisdom and every feat selected for maximum damage output, and every magical property on your gear tailored towards DPR, and end up with a 10 will save, that's your choice and I 100% think you are free to make that. However, the server shouldn't be balanced around you intentionally making a build choice, optimal or not (in the case of will saves, clearly not).

It makes no sense to offer people making a clear choice to optimize one way such a cheap and readily accessible cover to a build weakness, which is why no one thought my idea about a KD immunity potion was anything other than what it was- a joke.
3) Sacrificing fort for will is not irrelevant because you end up vulnerable to the same mage you're trying to immunize against.
I believe the idea that "optimizing your build" should equivocate to being immune to all different kinds of attacks simultaneously is deeply flawed at its core when discussing game balance (but there's universal saves as a property if you want to build for that)!
4) You need will saves for things other than spells. Without clarity, this hypothetical rogue would still be fairly vulnerable to, say, fear auras or other monster abilities. Loss of clarity affects more than just PvP.
Arelith isn't a single-player game. This isn't rhetoric, it's staff-stated. Lesser mind-blank and mind-blank are still a thing, so is the spell remove fear (which is also low enough to be potionable and is AoE, but reactionary rather than preparatory). When it comes to PvE, unless you're trying to solo with a min-maxed build, there are still solutions to these things. (Edit note: I don't judge people for min-maxing their builds, but I do think that "minimums" should be related to their balance as well as "maximums.") I don't think anyone really believes in a doomsday PvE scenario where suddenly no one can clear any dungeons because clarity becomes breachable, fear auras or otherwise.
5) Mages absolutely do not need this buff.
I agree with your statement, but only because I would expand it to "Mages don't need any buffs."

That doesn't mean a functionality increase to the most benign school, that someone is least likely to open up with if their intention is to send you to the fugue, would hurt overly much.
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Jagel
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Jagel » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:46 am

You have a point Aelryn, but there is a huge difference between disc and clarity as the former has practically permanent uptime whereas clarity only lasts for a few moments

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Rwby » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:32 am

Jagel wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:46 am
You have a point Aelryn, but there is a huge difference between disc and clarity as the former has practically permanent uptime whereas clarity only lasts for a few moments
The point is that's irrelevent though Jagel. Clarity doesn't last that long, yes. But by and large it lasts the entire length of a PvP encounter.
Also you can drink clarity to -un-disable yourself, where as you can't unknockdown yourself, either.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by JediMindTrix » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:10 pm

Rwby wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:32 am
But by and large it lasts the entire length of a PvP encounter.
Yep. It'd be great if people stopped offering strategies to get around clarity that involve 'waiting' and rely on your opponent standing still.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Jagel » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:45 pm

Any time spent chugging potions is time not spent whacking the mage in the face with an axe. Hasted or quickened should allow you to get another spell off. Mage keeps initiative.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by JediMindTrix » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:28 pm

Jagel wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:45 pm
Any time spent chugging potions is time not spent whacking the mage in the face with an axe. Hasted or quickened should allow you to get another spell off. Mage keeps initiative.
Mage can't use an entire spell school and that's silly.
But not as silly as "quickened".

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Scurvy Cur » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:40 pm

JediMindTrix wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:10 pm
Rwby wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:32 am
But by and large it lasts the entire length of a PvP encounter.
Yep. It'd be great if people stopped offering strategies to get around clarity that involve 'waiting' and rely on your opponent standing still.
Wholeheartedly concur.

It’s not as though mages have access to a spell that lasts the entire duration of clarity and lets them wait out the 8 round uptime in more or less complete safety while deciding what buffs they need and dropping distractions/summons.

Oh wait.


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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by JediMindTrix » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:15 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:40 pm
Wholeheartedly concur.

It’s not as though mages have access to a spell that lasts the entire duration of clarity and lets them wait out the 8 round uptime in more or less complete safety while deciding what buffs they need and dropping distractions/summons.

Oh wait.
Or your opponent just leaves while you [edited by Dunshine] decide what 'buffs' to cast. Or nails you with a floor-targeted mord's. This is also assuming this is one-on-one, which it often is not.
More likely you go the far more optimal route of just using your other spell schools that are still viable no matter how buffed your opponent is.

The strategy is deeply flawed, and I thoroughly encourage you to keep using it.

Seriously if you drop a summon, it's probably an EDK and you probably have conj focus, Freedom wand your EDK and then evard's the player who is apparently standing around doing nothing in this fantasy scenario you've concocted. Congrats you've won this scenario... without using the enchantment school at all, and well before their clarity faded.

Waiting things out in a PvP engagement rather than actively making moves is gonna get you killed.
Last edited by JediMindTrix on Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Cortex
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Cortex » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:27 pm

a recipe to disaster is resorting to ad hominens
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Pindrop » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:31 pm

JediMindTrix wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:15 pm
...
Let's keep the personal insults to a minimum. This includes renaming quoted posters and using inappropriate / graphic imagery to get around the language filters.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by JediMindTrix » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:35 pm

Cortex wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:27 pm
a recipe to disaster is resorting to ad hominens
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ big words confuse my small mind
Pindrop wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:31 pm
Let's keep the personal insults to a minimum. This includes renaming quoted posters and using inappropriate / graphic imagery to get around the language filters.
yessir

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Hunter548 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:47 pm

JediMindTrix wrote: Or nails you with a floor-targeted mord's.
you know you can avoid this by pressing "w" right
UilliamNebel wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:24 pm
You're right. Participating in the forums was a mistake. Won't do this again.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by JediMindTrix » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:50 pm

You're better off moving diagonally then in a straight line forward/backward/side-to-side.

EDIT: or you'll get target led. and you certainly don't want to be mashing your directional keys in pvp, ever
Last edited by JediMindTrix on Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Peppermint » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:09 am

Guys I know this is going to blow your minds but melees invest in discipline too.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:11 am

Peppermint wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:09 am
Guys I know this is going to blow your minds but melees invest in discipline too.
It's a class skill for them without needing to multiclass into something just for it.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by flower » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:12 am

JediMindTrix wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:28 pm
Jagel wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:45 pm
Any time spent chugging potions is time not spent whacking the mage in the face with an axe. Hasted or quickened should allow you to get another spell off. Mage keeps initiative.
Mage can't use an entire spell school and that's silly.
But not as silly as "quickened".
That mage got least two up to three other spell schools to pick spells from also. He is not FORCED to memorise only enchantment disable spells.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by flower » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:15 am

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:11 am
Peppermint wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:09 am
Guys I know this is going to blow your minds but melees invest in discipline too.
It's a class skill for them without needing to multiclass into something just for it.
But the constantly repeated spellcraft is not and They must multiclass for it or také it cross class…..while getting pitiful nul nul nul sklil points :D unlike wizard who could drop skills points around at passing people and still keep important things covered.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by JediMindTrix » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:48 pm

flower wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:12 am
That mage got least two up to three other spell schools to pick spells from also. He is not FORCED to memorise only enchantment disable spells.
Yes Flower/Dirza, I know. That is why I have been saying the 'wait clarity out' is silly & suboptimal. It's also dangerous, but for reasons not related to spell schools.
That doesn't in any way mean that it's okay for an entire spell school to be rendered completely useless by a common mob drop. since we're already going in circles, I'll just complete the loop for you:
"Clarity/Death Ward can't be on the breach list it'll wreck many builds!"
Yes I agree. That's why I suggested this.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Scurvy Cur » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:44 pm

JediMindTrix wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:15 pm
Scurvy Cur wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:40 pm
Wholeheartedly concur.

It’s not as though mages have access to a spell that lasts the entire duration of clarity and lets them wait out the 8 round uptime in more or less complete safety while deciding what buffs they need and dropping distractions/summons.

Oh wait.
Or your opponent just leaves while you decide what 'buffs' to cast. Or nails you with a floor-targeted mord's. This is also assuming this is one-on-one, which it often is not.
More likely you go the far more optimal route of just using your other spell schools that are still viable no matter how buffed your opponent is.

The strategy is deeply flawed, and I thoroughly encourage you to keep using it.

Seriously if you drop a summon, it's probably an EDK and you probably have conj focus (or sadbrains). Freedom wand your EDK and then evard's the stupid player who is apparently standing around doing nothing in this fantasy scenario you've concocted. Congrats you've won this scenario... without using the enchantment school at all, and well before their clarity faded.

Waiting things out in a PvP engagement rather than actively making moves is gonna get you killed.
The point is that a mage can press a button to wait out the clarity, not that this is the best strategy. Though in most cases it works fine.

Anyone caterwauling about mages being """"COUNTERED"""" by clarity hasn't read through the spellbook. I'd personally hit another save, but even the gsanc and run in circles for 8 rounds strat works.

[edited out by Dunshine]


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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by JediMindTrix » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:02 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:44 pm
Anyone caterwauling about mages being """"COUNTERED"""" by clarity hasn't read through the spellbook. I'd personally hit another save, but even the gsanc and run in circles for 8 rounds strat works.
JediMindTrix wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:48 pm
That doesn't in any way mean that it's okay for an entire spell school to be rendered completely useless by a common mob drop.
No one is saying mage's are completely countered, they're saying an entire spell school should not be unilaterally/easily neutered and that it should not be so binary. Some people think that should be accomplished by making clarity breachable. I disagree. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Last edited by JediMindTrix on Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Wytchee » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:54 pm

guys b nice
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:02 am

I believe a lot of good points and ideas are coming of this thread, although I echo the sentiment that we could all probably be a little nicer. I am, for my part, attempting to convey my points as related to mechanics in an atmosphere of "logically, if this, then shouldn't it be this?" and not be combative.

Coming at this from another angle, I still think the ability to drink a clarity potion while under the effects of conditions that should render you actionless steps into -pray territory, which is basically divine intervention.

I would rather vendors sell rods of lesser mind blank (1/rest) that anyone could use than have clarity potions exist at all.

1: Breachable
2: Lasts longer and can be worn pre-emptively for combat, PvE or PvP.
3: Costs more than 100 gold, but doesn't break the bank for most at midrange levels, either.
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