Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

[Wytchee]

Anyways, adjustments to clarity will not solve Enchantment's issues. As noted, it will only make other already more useful spell schools - like Illusion and Divination - more favored.

Thank you. I almost feel as though this thread is irrelevant. Enchantment is garbo and needs fixing so it's at least not overshadowed by Divination. Clarity isn't really a matter here, imho.

[flower]

My suggestion wasn't bad, it's just not what you want to hear. I'm not half-way to discovering, I understand perfectly and I willfully and respectfully disagree with your opinion.

Haste, time stop, disjunction, fear spell/hold/paralise.

Majority of low will saves characters die at that moment, their level, hps and alike does not matter.

6 seconds to cast haste, three to cast time stop, and another six seconds to kill low-will save characters.

Each of these spells do either last like round per level or silimar. Just put firewall under meleer and go to make coffee.

Edit: oh hold a moment. Many mind affecting spells are on whole groups. Fear, confusion and alike…. Yeah why not. Beside handful of epics geared up to skyies meleers will be mass-feared and mass held. There is nothing wrong with that either? I am not sure.

Oh. That hasn't been brought up before. What a unique perspective.

-pray

Otherwise you failed your saves and should die. Can't always win or have a way out of everything. You must have a weakness and die sometimes. Losing is part of the game. That's the weakness you chose for yourself.

Who knows. Maybe something CRAZY could happen other than death or like you're forced to RP being afraid, confused or stunned or something, instead of most spells just making you thirsty.

You keep tossing this over and over.


How many times are you able to use pray? Once in 15 minutes? Come on.

When you hit pray, mage can cast another two mind affecting spells and keep spamming them over and over. And once you are held, disabled, confused, feared, he can just toss a single AOE spell, even from wand / scroll and said person is dead. Heck why should caster be able to reliably disable even 20 meelers at once with simple fear spell?


You are unwilling to admit, that all meleers can do is just click, hack and use IKD (and possible scrolls / wands, mostly as counter play) while mages can use any type of spell regardless school (unless specialized), také up to four epic spell focuses and thus reach top spells in all three types of saves, on top saveless spells, and freely decide which kind of spell to část on whom.


You talk about you cannot be always winning yet you demand a change which will make majority of melee characters die in droves to casters (and now we are talking about CASUAL players and those who barely if ever hit 30rd, not the proffesional pvpers with top levels, rounded builds and top gear or ten years old epic characters overloaded with gear in value of milions…no those will easily fit the saves).

But yes changing effect of hold monster and alike from daze to more dangerous status can be worth considering.

[Sockss]

Anyways, adjustments to clarity will not solve Enchantment's issues. As noted, it will only make other already more useful spell schools - like Illusion and Divination - more favored.

Thank you. I almost feel as though this thread is irrelevant. Enchantment is garbo and needs fixing so it's at least not overshadowed by Divination. Clarity isn't really a matter here, imho.

+1

Enchantment can be made good without clarity taking a dive (and without the huge amount of work that comes with that).

[Dirac]

What's wrong with Enchantment again? I still think Enchantment focus already has some of the most powerful PvE spells in the game, plus the capability to make the most powerful enchantments which enables them to get massive amount of gold.

If the problem is PvP capability, I feel like this is 'asking for it all in one Spell Focus', because a mage can easily grab Evocation (or whatever) for some of the more PvP capable spells.

Not to mention that if you did make Enchantment Focus as a whole more effective in PvP, you'd have to reconstruct half the spells. For example mass charm has a huge AoE and 1/2 round/level duration which means insta death to groups of PCs.

One other big deal which has been mentioned but probably should be mentioned against because folks don't seem to get it, is that will save DCs are the most potent in the game since they are the costly to get and generally tend to be the lowest of all the three saves.

If you want a touch of PvP viability in Enchantment focus, then you can make Dominate Monster (or some other higher level ench spell) slightly more useful in PvP - maybe on par with Bigby spells. But this may be to complicated especially since Enchantment and Mages in general are in a GREAT place.

This should probably be a huge discussion about how Rogues suck in PvE but I digress.

[Baron Saturday]

The problem with Enchantment in PvE is that it falls off hard in the epic levels (along with most other spells that rely on enemies failing saves) as enemy mind immunity becomes more common and enemy saves are often artificially inflated.

The problem with Enchantment in PvP, which is what this thread is specifically addressing, is that the entire school can be negated by one unbreachable, low-level spell that is available from a very cheap potion. The counter-argument is that clarity has a 12 round cooldown, meaning that characters who rely on the potion will be vulnerable for a 4 round window, and the mage in question can always use other spells in the meantime.

Personally, I favor solutions that allow characters with Enchantment foci to have some form of impact with Enchantment spells, even against mind-immune enemies.

[Wytchee]

What's wrong with Enchantment again? I still think Enchantment focus already has some of the most powerful PvE spells in the game, plus the capability to make the most powerful enchantments which enables them to get massive amount of gold.

If the problem is PvP capability, I feel like this is 'asking for it all in one Spell Focus', because a mage can easily grab Evocation (or whatever) for some of the more PvP capable spells.

Not to mention that if you did make Enchantment Focus as a whole more effective in PvP, you'd have to reconstruct half the spells. For example mass charm has a huge AoE and 1/2 round/level duration which means insta death to groups of PCs.

One other big deal which has been mentioned but probably should be mentioned against because folks don't seem to get it, is that will save DCs are the most potent in the game since they are the costly to get and generally tend to be the lowest of all the three saves.

If you want a touch of PvP viability in Enchantment focus, then you can make Dominate Monster (or some other higher level ench spell) slightly more useful in PvP - maybe on par with Bigby spells. But this may be to complicated especially since Enchantment and Mages in general are in a GREAT place.

This should probably be a huge discussion about how Rogues suck in PvE but I digress.

Divination does everything enchantment does, and better.

[Dirac]

Divination does everything enchantment does, and better.

Really? Which spells?

Currently, I'm going through the levels on Arileth with and Hold Monster/Person are my goto spells for slaying big monsters.

When I get lvl 9 spells Dominate Monster will pay heavy dividends in terms of sustainable damage output.

[Wytchee]

Divination does everything enchantment does, and better.

Really? Which spells?

Currently, I'm going through the levels on Arileth with and Hold Monster/Person are my goto spells for slaying big monsters.

When I get lvl 9 spells Dominate Monster will pay heavy dividends in terms of sustainable damage output.

Feeblemind is a better stun than Hold Monster is.

If your goal is to disable someone in PvP/make them talk/whatever, Enchantment's your game with dominates; but if you actually want to kill them, Power Word: Kill can be up to DC 44 or even saveless depending on your casting stat and their current HP.

[JediMindTrix]

Dirac, instead of having wytchee repeat himself til.he fatigues, why not just read the two threads that present all sides of the argument thoroughly? You're likely to get a much more complete understanding

[Dirac]

Feeblemind is a better stun than Hold Monster is.

I mean, marginally in some situations. A level 9 has to cast a bunch to stun with FM, but hold monster is a one-off cast.

If your goal is to disable someone in PvP/make them talk/whatever, Enchantment's your game with dominates; but if you actually want to kill them, Power Word: Kill can be up to DC 44 or even saveless depending on your casting stat and their current HP.

My argument was that Dominate Monster is more useful in PvE. But I get it higher DC and insta-death somehow equals better.

[Wytchee]

Dirac, instead of having wytchee repeat himself til.he fatigues, why not just read the two threads that present all sides of the argument thoroughly? You're likely to get a much more complete understanding

Wrong gender, but yes. My gripes with enchanting are detailed in the other related threads.

[Dirac]

Dirac, instead of having wytchee repeat himself til.he fatigues, why not just read the two threads that present all sides of the argument thoroughly? You're likely to get a much more complete understanding

No thanks.

[flower]

Power word: Kill is death magic and should be countered by death ward, which is also undispellable.


Feeblemind has will save and thus should be countered by clarity too? Then it is on par with enchantment spells.

[monkeywithstick]

Feeblemind has +5 to save DCs compared to hold, so yes whilst affected by clarity; it is still better.

Death ward is not a cheap and cheerful potion. Amusingly, I don't think it counters Wierd either, so perhaps a little less versatile in that it isn't quite a one size fits all counter, though still very good and a sensible precaution.

[flower]

Feeblemind has +5 to save DCs compared to hold, so yes whilst affected by clarity; it is still better.

Death ward is not a cheap and cheerful potion. Amusingly, I don't think it counters Wierd either, so perhaps a little less versatile in that it isn't quite a one size fits all counter, though still very good and a sensible precaution.

Wiki says +4...

Well death ward is a cheap.

Wand can be bought at 6-8 000 coins (not exactly sure now) and can have up to 45? uses? That makes it around 200 +- coins per use. Unlike clarity, no cool down and lasts hours (but yes can be breached).

[monkeywithstick]

Wiki says +4...

It is also 1 level higher innate level.

Well death ward is a cheap.

It is not as plentiful as Clarity and also is less versatile, and as you say breachable.
I think Clarity would not be a problem if it was split into multiple options (say one for paralysis, one for dominate, one for death). The issue I feel is that it counters too much, not that the counter exists. But I imagine splitting the spell and potion effect into three would be a massive pain in the rear for whoever codes it so it isn't a viable solution.

[MissEvelyn]

If Clarity is to remain unbreachable, I would personally prefer it if Clarity 'absorbed' mind-affecting effects, rather than grant complete immunity. Kind of like Spell Mantles.

For instance, Clarity would vanish after absorbing 1 + 1 / every 3 caster levels mind-affecting effects or spells. Numbers could be tweaked for balance, but you get the idea.

[Hunter548]

It is also 1 level higher innate level.

No it isn't. Feeblemind and hold monster are both level 5 spells. You also don't get the bonus DC unless the target has arcane caster levels.

[thingsicantdo]

I'll try to be as constructive as possible. I am not certain you manage to realize full impact of what you ask for, so first few questions:
1) do you really wish to see deathward / clarity on breach lists?

IF yes, allow me to tell you how would it look like.

Haste. Timestop. Mordekayn's disjunction. Death spell /fear spell (or any other will based disable). Unless target has saves up to godlike, she dies.


2 rounds of casting (haste included). There are characters with godliek saves, but they are either BG/paladin builds or years old characters who spent billions on items (and thus they deserve it, taking in question their effort) who could pass DC 40 on their lowest save. Because, lets be honest, no wizard has a single spell focus, usually has up to 3 or even 4. This allows you to pick spell fitting the target best.


Do you really wish this kind of play included?

2) There was mentioned immunity penetration.

Oh...how much is enough? 5%? 15? 70%?


If it would be 30 and less, it would be worthless to cast. You would be loosing actions used for other spells in hopes it gets trough.


If it would be above 30%, it would almost guaranteed to go trough on about 3-4 casting (two rounds only) which would fully disable majority of characters.


It is almost impossible to balance one click-die spells. DC is either too high, that it is click-to win or too low to even bother with it.


Perhaps the only solution to go, would be add some secondary, annoying (but not devastating) effect on succesful save (despite immunity on), which would render penalties of sort on target for few rounds.


Example of what i think of:

Spell focus in enchantment - enables the secondary effect to 8-9th circle.
Caster gets 10% concealment versus target.

Greater spell focus - enables the secondary effect to 7th circle.
Caster gets 20% concealment (total, stacking with other spells like displacement or improved invis)

Epic spell focus - enables it for 5-6th circle
Caster gets additional 30% concealment total.

Lasting: 1 round per feat?
"Yu have succesfully resisted attempted attack on your mind, but are left a bit dazed still, unable to fully focus on your enemie."


Necromancery:

On passing save vs death spell:

Spell focus -2 constitution

Greater spell focus -4 constitution


Epic spell focus - -6 constution (-90 HPs total, lowering fort save...)


Again, epic spell focus would enable it for the weaker death spells while basic spell focus only for the top one. While it can be negated by negative energy protection, keep in mind it can be breached. Target would get malus on HPs, loose 3 to save, and forced possible to redo negative energy ward or use restoration. And if not immunity to death, could still fail the save.
And how bout…"You just surived awfull death magic spell, and are still shaken, leaving your endurance exhausted."


As main divination spells are also countered by clarity, and death ward, it could get similar secondary effects, for example target being vulnerable to magic damage or getting penalty to enchant bonus on his weapon (reinforcing thus premotion / stoneskin effects) and damage. It would represent either caster seeing forward able to hurt him more with raw magic or foretelling his moves and evading full attacks (penalty to hit or damage).

No saves on secondary effects, and lasting limited, how long, i dont know.

Also a last note. Clarity is the only mind ward cleric has. Battlecleric has lower will, and can have it dispelled already. If it was also on breach list, even single wand of lesser breach would remove his only mind ward from him.

reddit spacing doesn't even look good on reddit. let's all enjoy it again

[strong yeet]

reddit spacing doesn't even look good on reddit. let's all enjoy it again

This meme is stupid even on 4chan. Let's leave it there.

[Dirac]

reddit spacing doesn't even look good on reddit. let's all enjoy it again

This meme is stupid even on 4chan. Let's leave it there.

Meme or whatever the content of the post is spot on. Game's been like this for years.

[monkeywithstick]

It is also 1 level higher innate level.

No it isn't. Feeblemind and hold monster are both level 5 spells. You also don't get the bonus DC unless the target has arcane caster levels.

Feeblemind: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Feeblemind level 5 innate

Hold Monster: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Hold_monster level 4 innate. Level 5 slot. The saves go off the innate level.

Wiki reads (emphasis mine)

If the caster has arcane caster levels, the DC is increased by 4.

[Peppermint]

The wiki is incorrect.

And DCs are based off of spell level, not innate level.

[monkeywithstick]

The wiki is incorrect.

And DCs are based off of spell level, not innate level.

That's wierd, my hold and my PhK had the same DC when I checked in game. Will check again, perhaps I was mistaken

[Dirac]

The fact that Feeblemind is more effective in some situations than Hold Monster doesn't really support the premise that Enchantment as a whole is somehow weaker than other focuses. It completely ignores the bigger picture.

Watch this... Sure Power Word Kill does insta-kill ONE enemy. However, Dominate Monster has the potential to deal THOUSANDS more damage and slay many more enemies, making it a far better spell than Power Word Kill. So, no I don't agree that Divination does everything Enchantment does and better.