Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

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Dr_Hazard89
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:34 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:02 am
I believe a lot of good points and ideas are coming of this thread, although I echo the sentiment that we could all probably be a little nicer. I am, for my part, attempting to convey my points as related to mechanics in an atmosphere of "logically, if this, then shouldn't it be this?" and not be combative.

Coming at this from another angle, I still think the ability to drink a clarity potion while under the effects of conditions that should render you actionless steps into -pray territory, which is basically divine intervention.

I would rather vendors sell rods of lesser mind blank (1/rest) that anyone could use than have clarity potions exist at all.

1: Breachable
2: Lasts longer and can be worn pre-emptively for combat, PvE or PvP.
3: Costs more than 100 gold, but doesn't break the bank for most at midrange levels, either.
I don't feel it's fair at all. It feels like cheating to me. -pray already exists and it's more than enough. I'd hate to see rods of 1 use/rest mindblank, but I agree it would be better than this.

You can already pray out of whatever you want, why does there need to be a weak potion that you can drink when you shouldn't be able to? Why does it need to be unbreachable?

I haven't seen any argument for it except that 'it invalidates my build' otherwise. Why isn't that build a bad build then? My build is called bad if it has a weakness, why not yours? I don't have disc and so I have a bad build. You don't have will and so you have a bad build? No. You don't have will and so now everyone can drink clarity potions while incapacitated. What! :lol:

I don't feel it belongs or makes any sense. You're not being 'insta-killed' as a melee (or whatever build has low will) you have a bunch of HP, you can wait until you're low hp and pray (like everyone does). The clarity thing is totally unnecessary. A mage can't -pray out of KD and generally has less HP so the -pray is much more catering to those who would be at risk of being stopped by a single spell.

It's like there are two mechanics in place to remedy the same issue. -pray already solves any problem I've heard come up with the removal of this clarity nonsense. The potions should be breachable and not usable after the fact, because -pray exists.

My solution.
It becomes breachable.
It cannot be drank while under the effects of a spell that incapacitate your character (duh).
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Dunshine » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:59 am

Just read through this all and moderated some of the personal insults flying around.

Feel free to keep discussing, but the next person posting personal insults in here will get a temporary forum ban. You've been warned.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Sockss » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:47 am

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:34 am
I don't feel it's fair at all. It feels like cheating to me. -pray already exists and it's more than enough. I'd hate to see rods of 1 use/rest mindblank, but I agree it would be better than this.

You can already pray out of whatever you want, why does there need to be a weak potion that you can drink when you shouldn't be able to? Why does it need to be unbreachable?

I haven't seen any argument for it except that 'it invalidates my build' otherwise. Why isn't that build a bad build then? My build is called bad if it has a weakness, why not yours? I don't have disc and so I have a bad build. You don't have will and so you have a bad build? No. You don't have will and so now everyone can drink clarity potions while incapacitated. What! :lol:
You're half-way there to discovering why your suggestion is bad. It does revolve around 'it invalidates my build' - the entire balance of the server has been built around clarity existing. If it didn't the vast majority of builds and classes would not be able to function, up until the time they were balanced either by giving them ways to bypass will-saves, boosted will saves, or itemisation to allow easy pushing of will saves - all of which leads us back to a similar (Although I'd argue worse for enchantment/mind spells) place we are now.

The primary concern of balance is to bring down / up the power of outlying builds/classes and create an environment in which as many things as possible are viable. This change would be a huge step backwards for that.

You can drink clarity potions while you're dazed, this is one of the effects of mind spells and really only exists as a fallback on the domination line. Perhaps a better buff to enchantment would be to change the PC fallback given, say to confusion?

There's is also a significant difference between having a will save and having discipline. Discipline is comparatively very easy to obtain, compared to a will save. (I'm not going to go into details as I'm sure they've been covered several times in this thread, but I'm sure you know this as well)

The suggestion for mindblank raises further concerns - in PvE mind effects would be practically obsolete, for example.

TLDR;

There is nothing wrong with the state of clarity at the moment, it's core to the balance of the server - while it can be changed it would necessitate a significant amount of other changes to put us back to the large amount of viable archetypes players have right now.

Enchantment isn't bad because of clarity; you can play around clarity if you wish to use mind spells. However if a clarity change were to happen, it would still mean illusion was a superior choice.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Rwby » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:11 am

I really do not buy this, 'But the server is balanced around this one spell! The persistent world will end if we change it!'

Arelith was balanced around Warlocks not existing. Then Warlocks existed. It was balanced around no Weavemasters. Then we adapted to Weave-Masters, then we adapted to them being gone again. We've [by which I mean, the various Admin Teams] have repeatedly made fundemental changes to 'Balance' such as it exists in 3.0DnD and then such as it existed in NWN. [Shurikens? Balanced? Okay. Scimitars? Balanced? Okay.]

Yes. Changing Clarity would be a change in the balance of the server. Yes, we'd have to adapt to that. I'm really not sold that when the dust settles and the server has been rebalenced accordingly, we'd be in any different state now.
Certainly more so than 'What?!? A Class that casts infinate magic, infinate buffs, haste AND DOES DAMAGE ON HIT?!?!?' I exagerate for comic effect. But really, this game is more stable than removing one level 3 spell causing the world to implode.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:49 am

My suggestion wasn't bad, it's just not what you want to hear. I'm not half-way to discovering, I understand perfectly and I willfully and respectfully disagree with your opinion.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by flower » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:04 pm

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:49 am
My suggestion wasn't bad, it's just not what you want to hear. I'm not half-way to discovering, I understand perfectly and I willfully and respectfully disagree with your opinion.
Haste, time stop, disjunction, fear spell/hold/paralise.

Majority of low will saves characters die at that moment, their level, hps and alike does not matter.

6 seconds to cast haste, three to cast time stop, and another six seconds to kill low-will save characters.

Each of these spells do either last like round per level or silimar. Just put firewall under meleer and go to make coffee.

Edit: oh hold a moment. Many mind affecting spells are on whole groups. Fear, confusion and alike…. :lol: Yeah why not. Beside handful of epics geared up to skyies meleers will be mass-feared and mass held. There is nothing wrong with that either? I am not sure.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Rwby » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:14 pm

So we're saying Clarity Potions are mandatory to playing Arelith?

Because that doesn't sound healthy either if that's the point you're so strenuously defending.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Rags » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:43 pm

Rwby wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:14 pm
So we're saying Clarity Potions are mandatory to playing Arelith?

Because that doesn't sound healthy either if that's the point you're so strenuously defending.

Unless you’ve means of securing mind immunity, or playing a build that has access to absurdly high saves, they are.

It’s not healthy at all.

Getting stuck in a Hold Monster / Person, or whatever, is basically a death sentence. You’re likely done for. Might as well be insta-death’d.

Thus, they’re pretty mandatory. I’d never not have them on a character; even mages I’ll carry a handful.

Not to mention, there’s a fair amount of dungeons that are ridiculously troublesome without Clairty, or Mind Blank. So, in that sense too, they’re ‘mandatory.’

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:51 pm

flower wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:04 pm
Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:49 am
My suggestion wasn't bad, it's just not what you want to hear. I'm not half-way to discovering, I understand perfectly and I willfully and respectfully disagree with your opinion.
Haste, time stop, disjunction, fear spell/hold/paralise.

Majority of low will saves characters die at that moment, their level, hps and alike does not matter.

6 seconds to cast haste, three to cast time stop, and another six seconds to kill low-will save characters.

Each of these spells do either last like round per level or silimar. Just put firewall under meleer and go to make coffee.

Edit: oh hold a moment. Many mind affecting spells are on whole groups. Fear, confusion and alike…. :lol: Yeah why not. Beside handful of epics geared up to skyies meleers will be mass-feared and mass held. There is nothing wrong with that either? I am not sure.
Oh. That hasn't been brought up before. What a unique perspective.

-pray

Otherwise you failed your saves and should die. Can't always win or have a way out of everything. You must have a weakness and die sometimes. Losing is part of the game. That's the weakness you chose for yourself.

Who knows. Maybe something CRAZY could happen other than death or like you're forced to RP being afraid, confused or stunned or something, instead of most spells just making you thirsty.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Sockss » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:59 pm

Rwby wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:11 am
I really do not buy this, 'But the server is balanced around this one spell! The persistent world will end if we change it!'

Arelith was balanced around Warlocks not existing. Then Warlocks existed. It was balanced around no Weavemasters. Then we adapted to Weave-Masters, then we adapted to them being gone again. We've [by which I mean, the various Admin Teams] have repeatedly made fundemental changes to 'Balance' such as it exists in 3.0DnD and then such as it existed in NWN. [Shurikens? Balanced? Okay. Scimitars? Balanced? Okay.]

Yes. Changing Clarity would be a change in the balance of the server. Yes, we'd have to adapt to that. I'm really not sold that when the dust settles and the server has been rebalenced accordingly, we'd be in any different state now.
Certainly more so than 'What?!? A Class that casts infinate magic, infinate buffs, haste AND DOES DAMAGE ON HIT?!?!?' I exagerate for comic effect. But really, this game is more stable than removing one level 3 spell causing the world to implode.
The world won't end, but the ability to play more than one of 2 archetypes (Divine, or caster) to any degree of success would end.

Which would then necessitate the need to enable other archetypes the ability to be able to reliably ward against mind spells to make them at all viable. This is a huge amount of work and it simply doesn't need to be done as clarity does it right now.

The things you've mentioned have a very limited effect on the balance environment. Clarity is something that affects everything and is something that has been built around. It surely is possible to balance around clarity not existing but it's not necessary at all. Removing clarity is more comparable to removing haste.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Sockss » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:00 pm

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:51 pm
Who knows. Maybe something CRAZY could happen other than death or like you're forced to RP being afraid, confused or stunned or something, instead of most spells just making you thirsty.
You are aware that daze is the only mind effect that you can chug a clarity pot in, right?
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:41 pm

Sockss wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:00 pm
Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:51 pm
Who knows. Maybe something CRAZY could happen other than death or like you're forced to RP being afraid, confused or stunned or something, instead of most spells just making you thirsty.
You are aware that daze is the only mind effect that you can chug a clarity pot in, right?
Yep, my bad. A mixture of hyperbole and me trying to be funny has muddied the issue. I /may/ have salt about the -pray feature that is creeping into my argument as well.

Thank you. That's an important correction.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Skibbles » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:43 pm

Sockss wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:00 pm
Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:51 pm
Who knows. Maybe something CRAZY could happen other than death or like you're forced to RP being afraid, confused or stunned or something, instead of most spells just making you thirsty.
You are aware that daze is the only mind effect that you can chug a clarity pot in, right?

You can drink clarity under effect of circle 9 dominate monster too.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Hunter548 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:53 pm

Rwby wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:14 pm
So we're saying Clarity Potions are mandatory to playing Arelith?

Because that doesn't sound healthy either if that's the point you're so strenuously defending.
It's not. People have been making the point that "d20 or die" mechanics are bad since 3.x was popular 15 years ago. Unfortunately, though, if you wanna fix it you have to rebuild pretty much the entire magic system and probably large portions of adjacent systems too (How saves scale, how HP scales, etc) to fix it, so it's probably never going to happen on Arelith.

Which comes right back to the crux: Clarity in its current state is pretty necessary on both PvP and PvE grounds for a majority of classes. Rangers want it. Rogues want it. Fighters want it. Barbarians want it. Blackguards want it. Bards want it. Archers want it.

Now, sure, all of these classes can drop several feats into boosting their will save (Hurting their melee capabilities) and gear specifically to resist will saves, but there you run into a problem: If you drop whatever save you'd ordinarily enchant onto your gear, said save becomes vulnerable to being targeted by the same mages you're trying to protect yourself against to begin with. If you drop CON off your gear, the same mages can blow you away with IGMS and Hellball/Greater Ruin (And probably do it in such a way that you have no ability to stop them, depending on class), while simultaneously a) Making yourself worse at your PvE role and b) making yourself vulnerable to mage summons/other meleers. That's not to mention that some of these classes can't actually get to where they don't have a decent chance to fail vs a Hold Monster anyways.

Basically, the difference between this sort of save juggling and mages taking discipline is that a mage taking discipline isn't making themselves vulnerable to that same meleer in other ways by taking discipline. A non-mage opens himself up to the mage by trying to make up for his lack of clarity.

Edit:
Skibbles wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:43 pm

You can drink clarity under effect of circle 9 dominate monster too.
That's because dominate spells, when used on players, produce a daze effect.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Skibbles » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:59 pm

My mistake. I thought it was Daze the cantrip that was being referred.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by MissEvelyn » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:06 pm

Keep in mind that making Clarity breachable wouldn't remove it from the game. You'd still have to go about actually Breaching it with a spell, which is still a spell or action used for the caster.


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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Hunter548 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:22 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:06 pm
Keep in mind that making Clarity breachable wouldn't remove it from the game. You'd still have to go about actually Breaching it with a spell, which is still a spell or action used for the caster.
Correct, but making it breachable makes it significantly less reliable. Mages can, hasted, throw out a breach and then a mind spell and probably have it stick.


(Plus if it's breachable there's no reason to use it over Lesser Mind Blank as a non-caster).
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by PinataPlethora » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:31 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:22 pm
(Plus if it's breachable there's no reason to use it over Lesser Mind Blank as a non-caster).
Unless you're a UMDless pleb.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by monkeywithstick » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:00 pm

Seeing as the issue of clarity adjustment becomes more exacerbated alongside the save vs death effects that without clarity that we -all- become more vulnerable to in PvE or PvP (I say this because as has been pointed out -pray will break holds etc.)

How about -if- Clarity is adjusted/removed/fixed and this invalidates builds left right and centre:
Set save vs death to drop HP to -5 (number picked arbitrarily could easily be shunted higher or lower depending on how forgiving you want to be, or even -Spell Level, so wierd and wail are still properly scary) rather than instant fugue? The effect is then in essence also -pray able to partially balance the fact that the cheap counter is gone/reduced/whatever. It doesn't necesarilly nerfbat the hell out of save vs death seeing as more become practically castable (would possibly need a look at the save vs deaths that aren't mind affecting, but to be honest: Click -> instantfugue is not actually all that much fun for anyone anyway in my personal opinion). And thus puts enchantment in a similar position to some of the other schools.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Cortex » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:29 pm

monkeywithstick wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:00 pm
Seeing as the issue of clarity adjustment becomes more exacerbated alongside the save vs death effects that without clarity that we -all- become more vulnerable to in PvE or PvP (I say this because as has been pointed out -pray will break holds etc.)

How about -if- Clarity is adjusted/removed/fixed and this invalidates builds left right and centre:
Set save vs death to drop HP to -5 (number picked arbitrarily could easily be shunted higher or lower depending on how forgiving you want to be, or even -Spell Level, so wierd and wail are still properly scary) rather than instant fugue? The effect is then in essence also -pray able to partially balance the fact that the cheap counter is gone/reduced/whatever. It doesn't necesarilly nerfbat the hell out of save vs death seeing as more become practically castable (would possibly need a look at the save vs deaths that aren't mind affecting, but to be honest: Click -> instantfugue is not actually all that much fun for anyone anyway in my personal opinion). And thus puts enchantment in a similar position to some of the other schools.
While I don't personally think that'd be a good solution for Arelith, it is an interesting concept that might've worked under different circumstances.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by MissEvelyn » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:36 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:22 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:06 pm
Keep in mind that making Clarity breachable wouldn't remove it from the game. You'd still have to go about actually Breaching it with a spell, which is still a spell or action used for the caster.
Correct, but making it breachable makes it significantly less reliable. Mages can, hasted, throw out a breach and then a mind spell and probably have it stick.
Sure, but a mage on the other team can cast Mind Blank (and actually make the spell a viable choice) after the Breach to protect the entire party. Or be it a non-mage with UMD and the scroll.

The real question is, why are we balancing for 1v1 PvP encounters? Shouldn't the balance be focused on Party vs Party, if anything?


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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Cortex » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:39 pm

Party vs Party is pretty much impossible to balance proper. It's possible to make parties of 3 or 4 that can dominate most other setups.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:04 am

monkeywithstick wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:00 pm
Seeing as the issue of clarity adjustment becomes more exacerbated alongside the save vs death effects that without clarity that we -all- become more vulnerable to in PvE or PvP (I say this because as has been pointed out -pray will break holds etc.)

How about -if- Clarity is adjusted/removed/fixed and this invalidates builds left right and centre:
Set save vs death to drop HP to -5 (number picked arbitrarily could easily be shunted higher or lower depending on how forgiving you want to be, or even -Spell Level, so wierd and wail are still properly scary) rather than instant fugue? The effect is then in essence also -pray able to partially balance the fact that the cheap counter is gone/reduced/whatever. It doesn't necesarilly nerfbat the hell out of save vs death seeing as more become practically castable (would possibly need a look at the save vs deaths that aren't mind affecting, but to be honest: Click -> instantfugue is not actually all that much fun for anyone anyway in my personal opinion). And thus puts enchantment in a similar position to some of the other schools.
I made this exact suggestion years ago, with the exact same premise as you. This makes it so Death Spells aren't an instant trip to the Fugue, it gives people the ability to use them to win fights without actually causing a death. A single healkit will still leave you victorious in the PvP and with someone to RP with.

Back then, the issue raised by people is that in group PvP people would go around healing these people to full HP again. i wonder if it is possible to put someone a -5 and then don't have them bleed but also prevent them from being healed for a bit.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:17 am

Just for the sake of clarity (don't hurt me, please), in case anyone else might misread it, when I said rods of lesser mind blank (1/day), I literally meant Rod of Lesser Mind Blank, which is a fifth level spell that is single-target instead of 8th level for AoE/group.

The idea being that these would take the place of clarity, but also be breachable. However, someone could carry more than one.

Which to me, is a more acceptable and less one-sided form of counter-play (the ability to go back and forth) as opposed to "Clarity potion, bam, nothing you can do for about ten rounds except wait it out."

This would completely offset the PvE concerns. Lesser Mind Blank is also far enough down the breach list that unless it's your only combat-oriented buff (unlikely in PvE scenarios where the status quo is to buff to the gills, proceed, then carve out a safe spot to rest and reapply) it's highly unlikely even a targeted mordenkainen's disjunction will strip it in one go in PvP. But at least it's possible.

For reference, Lesser Mind Blank is actually the thirtieth spell to be checked for a breach out of a list of 32.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by yellowcateyes » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:31 am

It's actually very likely. The number of wards on the breach list that the typical fighter, rogue, barbarian, etc. is likely to have active is far fewer than the six items breached by a targeted Mord's, or even the four items stripped by greater spell breach.

Even when said mundane character has been buffed heavily by a party mage or cleric, there is a good chance that they won't have enough relevant buffs active to not have lesser mind blank stripped by the first targeted Mord's.

Anyways, adjustments to clarity will not solve Enchantment's issues. As noted, it will only make other already more useful spell schools - like Illusion and Divination - more favored.
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