The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

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Rwby
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Rwby » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:42 am

PinataPlethora wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:31 am
If you get too high, are you prevented from completing a quest, or is it just that you can't have anyone of higher level in your party, and have to solo it?
You prevent yourself from completing your own writs when you out-level them, yes.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:46 am

I feel like every time a thread begins with an assertion of immersion being broken, the poster must first define what immersion means to them.

So then, the rest of us can disagree with how the poster defines immersion, and we can see how entirely subjective that is. Then we disregard the thread.
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Peppermint
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Peppermint » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:49 am

Seven, please. You're ruining my immersion.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by thingsicantdo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:55 am

Peppermint wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:49 am
Seven, please. You're ruining my immersion.
i'm going to need your personal definition so i can tell you how you're wrong, Peppermint

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by caldura firebourne » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:55 am

I usually try to avoid posting in these threads because my opinions on the matter are not often the popular one,
but writs are only there for XP, you do not need to take them, and the XP is not the reward your character would be concerned about anyway, as it is an arbitrary out of character measurement of how much you learned

in real life, when you want to learn some new craft, it's entirely reasonable to go out and seek a master of said craft, be it in the form of apprenticeship, internship, or college courses/workshops and such, yet in game the novices tend to shun the advice and assistance of the experts for fear of learning "less" with or without the writ system in place, this is entirely backwards and often little to no tangible explanation can be given in character as to why watching an expert gains you no learning experience, oftentimes when asked why a higher level cannot accompany you in character the response is given in tells because it is only fathomably explained OOC

I assure you this game session is not the only one you will play, there will be more quests and dungeon dives in the future, there is simply no reason "even for those with limited playtimes" to exclude anyone simply because their level is too high.
The entire base of this argument is flawed in my own opinion
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Rwby
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Rwby » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:00 am

caldura firebourne wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:55 am
I usually try to avoid posting in these threads because my opinions on the matter are not often the popular one,
but writs are only there for XP, you do not need to take them, and the XP is not the reward your character would be concerned about anyway, as it is an arbitrary out of character measurement of how much you learned
Isn't it worth noting that the gold is probably a reward your character would be exceptionally concerned about?

Wouldn't it be a reasonable compromise to award characters who had help from an over-leveled character the full gold amount from the writ, and complete the writ, but zero XP? I think that'd solve everyones issues with immersion and game balence, unless people really think it's balence breaking for epic levels to waste their time grinding you a few thousand gold out of writs at the cost of all the XP those writs would give you?

thingsicantdo
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by thingsicantdo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:11 am

well, except that the entire point of the writs was to encourage partying with similarly-leveled characters (or soloing) in an appropriately challenging area.

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caldura firebourne
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by caldura firebourne » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:19 am

And yet writs are a new thing, and not available to everyone anyway, so in character they really shouldn't be the deciding factor for who can and cannot travel with you, gold is accumulated through dungeons anyway and I'm sure the higher level isn't going to suddenly demand a bigger portion of the gold simply because he/she is a higher level

if writs weren't a thing, there would be no complaints about this, however the same treatment of higher level characters in a lower level party would, and certainly did in the past, apply

there is simply no good reason for denying anyone a chance to roleplay with you and your character, and by finding these arbitrary reasons, we tend to limit our own experience on this server that is supposed to be a place where roleplay comes first
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thingsicantdo
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by thingsicantdo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:21 am

not being able to complete a writ isn't denying them roleplay, though. it's... well, it's denying them a MAJOR xp boost until they're no longer in a group with the high level character who trivializes the challenge that the boost is supposed to be a reward for.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by caldura firebourne » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:27 am

And a major XP boost is an OOC measurement of accomplishment, not an IC one
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Wings of Peace
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Wings of Peace » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:25 am

I realize I'm repeating this but we're a few pages deep so I just wanted to re-iterate for clarity. As important as I think discussing the writ system in general is, my main goal for this feedback thread was to give feedback on how the change has affected party formation. Specifically, whether or not other people feel like there's been more OOC interactions necessary, or simply happening, when forming parties with other players. My observation is that these OOC interactions have been happening more since the change and they're what I'm referring to when I say the changes have been immersion breaking

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:10 am

Wings of Peace wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:25 am
I realize I'm repeating this but we're a few pages deep so I just wanted to re-iterate for clarity. As important as I think discussing the writ system in general is, my main goal for this feedback thread was to give feedback on how the change has affected party formation. Specifically, whether or not other people feel like there's been more OOC interactions necessary, or simply happening, when forming parties with other players. My observation is that these OOC interactions have been happening more since the change and they're what I'm referring to when I say the changes have been immersion breaking
Long have I played with -notells, and I would encourage anyone against this change to do the same. The more people realize how frustrating it is to have to resort to OOC (but be unable to because -notells), the better they might understand why it was a poor change for this server.

Besides that, there's something refreshing and mysterious about playing with notells on.


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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Cortex » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:16 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:10 am
Besides that, there's something refreshing and mysterious about playing with notells on.
i just automatically think they got tell banned by a dm
:)

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Peppermint » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:18 am

OOC communication is highly important for facilitating roleplay. It helps to ensure that everyone is having fun, is on the same page, and that no rules are being breached. I've yet to have a single positive experience with a player that used -notells regularly.

To each their own, I guess. But I wouldn't encourage it by any means.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Wings of Peace » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:48 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:10 am
Wings of Peace wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:25 am
I realize I'm repeating this but we're a few pages deep so I just wanted to re-iterate for clarity. As important as I think discussing the writ system in general is, my main goal for this feedback thread was to give feedback on how the change has affected party formation. Specifically, whether or not other people feel like there's been more OOC interactions necessary, or simply happening, when forming parties with other players. My observation is that these OOC interactions have been happening more since the change and they're what I'm referring to when I say the changes have been immersion breaking
Long have I played with -notells, and I would encourage anyone against this change to do the same. The more people realize how frustrating it is to have to resort to OOC (but be unable to because -notells), the better they might understand why it was a poor change for this server.

Besides that, there's something refreshing and mysterious about playing with notells on.

I agree that -notells is better for roleplay and I while I don't play with it on I do try to keep my tells minimal. That said, -notells is a sideways solution in my mind. Ideally the in-game mechanics wouldn't encourage players to feel the need to send tells in the first place which is what I feel is happening now since I only rarely received tells before the current system was implemented. Obviously it's possible to roleplay around the group level limitations, but my experience is that this isn't happening and instead players are taking the path of least resistance and simply coordinating out of character. That's why I'm asking if other people have experienced the same increase in ooc coordination and also why I'm suggesting some sort of in-game mechanic for helping parties form since this would be less intrusive than sudden green text in my opinion.

Edit: After reading your post a few more times I feel like we might be agreeing with each-other to a large extent but I'm leaving the rest of the post un-edited in case I'm wrong about that.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by dirza » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:01 am

Never had any issue being overleveled and someone in party having that writ.

I just went off, on my way, doing my own buisness and venturing with them once thy completed their writs.

When it spams you someone in party is too high level that person is fully aware it concerns him / her. Writs are only addition, a nice one, for lower level characters. It is intended for similar level range to coop on them, not for epics to drag their buddies on altstrough writs to speed their levels up.


I agree that some factions based the role play training on it perhaps. But why would i want an epic dragging me trough place, so i receive mere 1500 XPs, while when i go with my level range party i can get also 30 xps per mob, ending up with like 10 000 xps in total in the end? This goes against all logic. Wouldn't these "casual" gamers prefer to make almost an entire level by proper passing that dungeon spending their two hours of game on it, instead of speed rush hasted in tow of epics trough three writs getting 3-4,500 xps?

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Wings of Peace » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:08 am

dirza wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:01 am
Never had any issue being overleveled and someone in party having that writ.

I just went off, on my way, doing my own buisness and venturing with them once thy completed their writs.

When it spams you someone in party is too high level that person is fully aware it concerns him / her. Writs are only addition, a nice one, for lower level characters. It is intended for similar level range to coop on them, not for epics to drag their buddies on altstrough writs to speed their levels up.


I agree that some factions based the role play training on it perhaps. But why would i want an epic dragging me trough place, so i receive mere 1500 XPs, while when i go with my level range party i can get also 30 xps per mob, ending up with like 10 000 xps in total in the end? This goes against all logic. Wouldn't these "casual" gamers prefer to make almost an entire level by proper passing that dungeon spending their two hours of game on it, instead of speed rush hasted in tow of epics trough three writs getting 3-4,500 xps?
This is a perfectly fine stance to have on the issue, but it's also outside the scope of what I ask about in my OP. Since the change was implemented, have you felt like you're getting more ooc tells when your groups are forming or has it been about the same as ever in your experience?

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by dirza » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:45 am

Wings of Peace wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:08 am
dirza wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:01 am
Never had any issue being overleveled and someone in party having that writ.

I just went off, on my way, doing my own buisness and venturing with them once thy completed their writs.

When it spams you someone in party is too high level that person is fully aware it concerns him / her. Writs are only addition, a nice one, for lower level characters. It is intended for similar level range to coop on them, not for epics to drag their buddies on altstrough writs to speed their levels up.


I agree that some factions based the role play training on it perhaps. But why would i want an epic dragging me trough place, so i receive mere 1500 XPs, while when i go with my level range party i can get also 30 xps per mob, ending up with like 10 000 xps in total in the end? This goes against all logic. Wouldn't these "casual" gamers prefer to make almost an entire level by proper passing that dungeon spending their two hours of game on it, instead of speed rush hasted in tow of epics trough three writs getting 3-4,500 xps?
This is a perfectly fine stance to have on the issue, but it's also outside the scope of what I ask about in my OP. Since the change was implemented, have you felt like you're getting more ooc tells when your groups are forming or has it been about the same as ever in your experience?
Four years i play with no tells.

The point is this, i know, what level range are the writs usually. You had level listed by registrator. And when you are the biggest level in the ground and get that yellow message in mech box it is not hard to say you are the one ruining their writ.

And always when the need arises (rarely) i just simple ask how many seasons thy got in their buisness :D to determinate rest.


While i was doing writs with my close companions we of course organised on chat when to play and what to pick, but my character helped to numerous lower level ones (of unknown)players with their own writs in various situatios.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:49 am

dirza wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:45 am
Wings of Peace wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:08 am
dirza wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:01 am
Never had any issue being overleveled and someone in party having that writ.

I just went off, on my way, doing my own buisness and venturing with them once thy completed their writs.

When it spams you someone in party is too high level that person is fully aware it concerns him / her. Writs are only addition, a nice one, for lower level characters. It is intended for similar level range to coop on them, not for epics to drag their buddies on altstrough writs to speed their levels up.


I agree that some factions based the role play training on it perhaps. But why would i want an epic dragging me trough place, so i receive mere 1500 XPs, while when i go with my level range party i can get also 30 xps per mob, ending up with like 10 000 xps in total in the end? This goes against all logic. Wouldn't these "casual" gamers prefer to make almost an entire level by proper passing that dungeon spending their two hours of game on it, instead of speed rush hasted in tow of epics trough three writs getting 3-4,500 xps?
This is a perfectly fine stance to have on the issue, but it's also outside the scope of what I ask about in my OP. Since the change was implemented, have you felt like you're getting more ooc tells when your groups are forming or has it been about the same as ever in your experience?
Four years i play with no tells.

The point is this, i know, what level range are the writs usually. You had level listed by registrator. And when you are the biggest level in the ground and get that yellow message in mech box it is not hard to say you are the one ruining their writ.

And always when the need arises (rarely) i just simple ask how many seasons thy got in their buisness :D to determinate rest.


While i was doing writs with my close companions we of course organised on chat when to play and what to pick, but my character helped to numerous lower level ones (of unknown)players with their own writs in various situatios.
If you asked my character how many seasons they have under their belt, they'd probably say something like .. "Seasons? .. Uuh. I don't know. Four hundred?"
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by dirza » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:51 am

There is very simple saying.


"Who wants, seeks how to, who does not, seeks why."

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Twily » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:01 pm

Part of what I liked about the writ system is it allowed people to travel with higher levels or in larger groups.

Yes, people can just group with the higher level and get low XP for kills like it used to be, but also get no writ progression, and then just go back later; I don't think this is how it should be though.
I don't see why any sort of notable XP gain should require OOC knowledge on levels, or even any sort of OOC planning.

There's been several cases already where low levels didn't mind my L30 joining them for strictly roleplay reasons because of the fact they still had the writs to gain XP from.
There was a lot of meaningful RP that came from this trip, and it was great being able to complete the task I had to with others, rather than wandering there alone avoiding any other low level players in the area like the plague.

Were it not for the writ system as it was without this level range in place, it's quite possible none of that roleplay would have ever happened. My character wouldn't have made a few friends, and I'd have spent several hours walking about alone instead.


Examples of cases where this level restriction becomes a problem:
Case 1:
Without:
PersonA: *forms group*
PersonB: Can I come?
PersonA: Sure!
PersonB: Can my friend come?
PersonA: The more the merrier!
With:
PersonA: *forms group*
PersonB: Can I come?
PersonA: *sends tell asking level, PersonB is in range* Sure!
PersonB: Can my friend come?
PersonA: *sends tell asking their level*

Case2:
RandomL30: Ooh, You say there's massive gemstones there? I need to see that!
RandomL30: *heads towards the low level dungeon, encounters a group doing a writ there*
Without:
RandomL30: Hello! I heard there's a rare gem creature in the area, I was out here to see that.
LowbieGroup: We were just headed towards that region, Feel free to come with us!
With:
RandomL30: Hello! I heard there's a rare gem creature in the area, I was out here to see that.
LowbieGroup: *silence while the group discusses whether to let them come, noting that their writ can't be completed if they come* Well, We were headed that way, but we had writs to do.
RandomL30: *Being respectful, decides to wait for them to finish and goes there alone*


TL;DR
What I liked most about the writ system was that it created a bridge between levels. It allowed people of wider level ranges to group up and still gain XP, and many players didn't mind the XP hit of the higher level being there since they still got XP from the writ.
This felt fitting for a roleplay setting to me. It made a strictly OOC mechanic less relevant when forming parties.

If this was put in place due to certain players abusing the system, I feel like those players should be targeted with RPR drops or similar instead of the entire system being changed.
Last edited by Twily on Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by R0GUE » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:19 pm

Twily wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:01 pm
Part of what I liked about the writ system is it allowed people to travel with higher levels or in larger groups.

Yes, people can just group with the higher level and get low XP for kills like it used to be, but also get no writ progression, and then just go back later; I don't think this is how it should be though.
I don't see why any sort of notable XP gain should require OOC knowledge on levels, or even any sort of OOC planning.

There's been several cases already where low levels didn't mind my L30 joining them for strictly roleplay reasons because of the fact they still had the writs to gain XP from.
There was a lot of meaningful RP that came from this trip, and it was great being able to complete the task I had to with others, rather than wandering there alone avoiding any other low level players in the area like the plague.

Were it not for the writ system as it was without this level range in place, it's quite possible none of that roleplay would have ever happened. My character wouldn't have made a few friends, and I'd have spent several hours walking about alone instead.


Examples of cases where this level restriction becomes a problem:
Case 1:
Without:
PersonA: *forms group*
PersonB: Can I come?
PersonA: Sure!
PersonB: Can my friend come?
PersonA: The more the merrier!
With:
PersonA: *forms group*
PersonB: Can I come?
PersonA: *sends tell asking level, PersonB is in range* Sure!
PersonB: Can my friend come?
PersonA: *sends tell asking their level*

Case2:
RandomL30: Ooh, You say there's massive gemstones there? I need to see that!
RandomL30: *heads towards the low level dungeon, encounters a group doing a writ there*
Without:
RandomL30: Hello! I heard there's a rare gem creature in the area, I was out here to see that.
LowbieGroup: We were just headed towards that region, Feel free to come with us!
With:
RandomL30: Hello! I heard there's a rare gem creature in the area, I was out here to see that.
LowbieGroup: *silence while the group discusses whether to let them come, noting that their writ can't be completed if they come* Well, We were headed that way, but we had writs to do.
RandomL30: *Being respectful, decides to wait for them to finish and goes there alone*


TL;DR
What I liked most about the writ system was that it created a bridge between levels. It allowed people of wider level ranges to group up and still gain XP(even if it's less than they could get with people their level).
This felt fitting for a roleplay setting to me. It made a strictly OOC mechanic less relevant when forming parties.
All of this, your friends are not always the same level as you are or even close. Moreover, trying to organize and find the exact right level group now takes more time, and not everyone has more than a few hours a night to play.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Nitro » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:15 pm

RandomL30: Hello! I heard there's a rare gem creature in the area, I was out here to see that.
LowbieGroup: We were just headed towards that region, Feel free to come with us!
I have never seen it play out like this. Either the lowbies asking the high level to leave, or more likely, leaving themselves because they don't want to get their XP sapped by a high level in a low level area and don't want to get killed if the high level is unstable.

If you wouldn't earn XP without a writ, why should you earn XP with a writ in the same situation? As for the gold, if that was enabled I see some situations where it could easily be abused for a 19 to take 3 quests, get a level 30 friend along and go get a whole bunch of gold for nearly 0 effort.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Rwby » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:37 pm

Nitro wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:15 pm
RandomL30: Hello! I heard there's a rare gem creature in the area, I was out here to see that.
LowbieGroup: We were just headed towards that region, Feel free to come with us!
I have never seen it play out like this. Either the lowbies asking the high level to leave, or more likely, leaving themselves because they don't want to get their XP sapped by a high level in a low level area and don't want to get killed if the high level is unstable.

If you wouldn't earn XP without a writ, why should you earn XP with a writ in the same situation? As for the gold, if that was enabled I see some situations where it could easily be abused for a 19 to take 3 quests, get a level 30 friend along and go get a whole bunch of gold for nearly 0 effort.
Okay, but then they've just missed out on getting 4500 XP and probably 9000 adventuring XP. That seems like a totally fair trade for 9000 gold.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Nitro » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:40 pm

And that's the absurdity of not having level caps in. Otherwise they could get all of that with 0 effort just because they have high level friends.

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