The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

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Twily
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Twily » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:54 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:42 pm
I don't envy Irongron who has to go through pages upon pages of forum threads :lol:
In seriousness though, staff and especially Dunshine you're doing a great job keeping it together - and putting up with the passion of us players. Thank you =)
I second this!

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:26 pm

The problem with any xp scaling mechanism is working out how it knows you are working on a writ. You may not complete the whole writ in one sitting. If someone joins your party, and you suddenly realise they were higher level, your xp would probably be screwed, even if they left the party (otherwise, they could just leave before you completed it, and then you would get the whole lot). You'd also have to set the script to only work in areas related to the writ, to prevent screwing over your writ xp due to partying up somewhere else entirely for some other reason entirely. Perhaps instead you might set it so that any partially completed writs would be xp nerfed when a higher level person joined, but I can think of plenty of times when this might fire improperly. I think it would be quite a complicated system to code properly.

I was thinking about an idea whereby the propotion of xp lost was the same as the proportion of outlevelled people in the party, but this runs into the same problem.

What might be a bit simpler to execute is having a toggleable mode, "assist" that can be on or off. If "assist" is off, you won't progress on any writs if you have a higher level person in your party, but will get the full xp when you do complete it when they are no longer there. If "assist" is on, you can have higher level people in your party, but writ xp will be halved.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:33 pm

I didn't write that very cohesively. Currently, the quest is either done, or not done, and the xp is handed out at the end. Calculating the xp dynamically as you go through the writ sounds like it would be nigh on impossible to keep track of. On the other hand, a small tag "assisted" / "not assisted" might be feasible.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Peppermint » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:18 pm

Dunshine wrote:It's not a forum moderators place to approve/reject suggestions, my fault for not noticing this earlier. Just moved that post back to the suggestion box...
Statements like these gravely concern me.

Granted it's been a while since I was an active contributor, but when I was, I was given the power to approve/reject suggestions pertaining to my own projects.

While I am not an active coder now, I do remain in touch with the team to offer feedback. Relatedly, it's to my understanding that 1) the project supervisor was in the right to reject this decision, as he did, 2) the team had already made the decision to uphold that internally.

Am I to understand that the team dynamic has actually shifted, or is what we're witnessing merely the product of internal miscommunication?

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Rwby » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:48 pm

Peppermint wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:18 pm
Dunshine wrote:It's not a forum moderators place to approve/reject suggestions, my fault for not noticing this earlier. Just moved that post back to the suggestion box...
Statements like these gravely concern me.

Granted it's been a while since I was an active contributor, but when I was, I was given the power to approve/reject suggestions pertaining to my own projects.

While I am not an active coder now, I do remain in touch with the team to offer feedback. Relatedly, it's to my understanding that 1) the project supervisor was in the right to reject this decision, as he did, 2) the team had already made the decision to uphold that internally.

Am I to understand that the team dynamic has actually shifted, or is what we're witnessing merely the product of internal miscommunication?
This feels like it is entirely off topic, and best reserved for PMs, no?

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Bryce Silver-Wind » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:52 pm

Quite honestly, this whole server feels like its splitting at the seems, no one seeming to care what the players think anymore, and trying to recreate WoW in its glory days. Sorry, but even Irongrons comment that we are not an RP server anymore but an RPG? If I wanted to play an RPG, I would play Final Fantasy. Your trying to create an MMO based around the ideals of World of Warcraft. Its starting to show in the Moderators, the DMs and the Admin staff. I know its your server your way, and its why I haven't been playing here anymore. Though I have been watching.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Liareth » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:06 am

Bryce Silver-Wind wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:52 pm
Quite honestly, this whole server feels like its splitting at the seems, no one seeming to care what the players think anymore, and trying to recreate WoW in its glory days. Sorry, but even Irongrons comment that we are not an RP server anymore but an RPG? If I wanted to play an RPG, I would play Final Fantasy. Your trying to create an MMO based around the ideals of World of Warcraft. Its starting to show in the Moderators, the DMs and the Admin staff. I know its your server your way, and its why I haven't been playing here anymore. Though I have been watching.
RP has never been Arelith's only concern, from its earliest days until today. It has gone through some periods where balance wasn't a consideration, but how systems work has always been important to the team. The style of this server is adventure - bringing people together and embarking on a grand quest (PvE or PvP!), then heading back to the tavern for a drink afterwards. This server is a mechanically intricate one that encourages fun gameplay in addition to RP. They complement each other.

Just because the team disagrees with what some players say doesn't mean the team doesn't care what they think. It's perfectly reasonable to care what players think but to disagree with what they are saying and/or make a judgement call for the betterment of the server's heath, as they perceive it.

If you're looking for the style of play that disregards the game and cares only about RP, there are other servers that can cater to your needs.

BTW - the team is not trying to recreate WoW. Ironically, if they were, this writ change would have never happened. WoW allows high levels to boost low levels through quests without any penalty.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Drak » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:13 am

Irongron wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:23 am
Truth is we are not an RP server, we are an RPG server, and RPGs are always about challenge.
Um, have you checked Arelith's front page recently, where it says "Arelith - An online persisten role playing world?

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Liareth » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:17 am

Drak wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:13 am
Irongron wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:23 am
Truth is we are not an RP server, we are an RPG server, and RPGs are always about challenge.
Um, have you checked Arelith's front page recently, where it says "Arelith - An online persisten role playing world?
If it wasn't clear, let me explain: RPG stands for role-playing game. Note the emboldened text, because what Irongron was trying to say is that Arelith is a game, and game mechanics and balance are just as important as RP. There is nothing contradictory about "Arelith - An online persisten role playing world" in regards to his statement. Also, he wrote everything on the front page.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Drak » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:18 am

Liareth wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:17 am
Drak wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:13 am
Irongron wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:23 am
Truth is we are not an RP server, we are an RPG server, and RPGs are always about challenge.
Um, have you checked Arelith's front page recently, where it says "Arelith - An online persisten role playing world?
If it wasn't clear, let me explain: RPG stands for role-playing game. Note the emboldened text, because what Irongron was trying to say is that Arelith is a game, and game mechanics and balance are just as important as RP. There is nothing contradictory about "Arelith - An online persisten role playing world" in regards to his statement. Also, he wrote everything on the front page.
But to say you aren't a RP server is kind of misleading. Should have worded it better imo

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Cortex » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:21 am

whew we are now arguing semantics and front pages
:)

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Scurvy Cur » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:25 am

Drak wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:18 am
Liareth wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:17 am
Drak wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:13 am


Um, have you checked Arelith's front page recently, where it says "Arelith - An online persisten role playing world?
If it wasn't clear, let me explain: RPG stands for role-playing game. Note the emboldened text, because what Irongron was trying to say is that Arelith is a game, and game mechanics and balance are just as important as RP. There is nothing contradictory about "Arelith - An online persisten role playing world" in regards to his statement. Also, he wrote everything on the front page.
But to say you aren't a RP server is kind of misleading. Should have worded it better imo
Irongron is going to be too nice to say this, but it needs to be said:

At the most charitable interpretation, this post is phenomenally disingenuous.

That's sort of par for the course for a lot of this thread though.


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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Bryce Silver-Wind » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:30 am

Liareth wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:06 am
Bryce Silver-Wind wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:52 pm
Quite honestly, this whole server feels like its splitting at the seems, no one seeming to care what the players think anymore, and trying to recreate WoW in its glory days. Sorry, but even Irongrons comment that we are not an RP server anymore but an RPG? If I wanted to play an RPG, I would play Final Fantasy. Your trying to create an MMO based around the ideals of World of Warcraft. Its starting to show in the Moderators, the DMs and the Admin staff. I know its your server your way, and its why I haven't been playing here anymore. Though I have been watching.
RP has never been Arelith's only concern, from its earliest days until today. It has gone through some periods where balance wasn't a consideration, but how systems work has always been important to the team. The style of this server is adventure - bringing people together and embarking on a grand quest (PvE or PvP!), then heading back to the tavern for a drink afterwards. This server is a mechanically intricate one that encourages fun gameplay in addition to RP. They complement each other.

Just because the team disagrees with what some players say doesn't mean the team doesn't care what they think. It's perfectly reasonable to care what players think but to disagree with what they are saying and/or make a judgement call for the betterment of the server's heath, as they perceive it.

If you're looking for the style of play that disregards the game and cares only about RP, there are other servers that can cater to your needs.

BTW - the team is not trying to recreate WoW. Ironically, if they were, this writ change would have never happened. WoW allows high levels to boost low levels through quests without any penalty.

It was never its ONLY concern no, but to tell your players that your not a RP Server, or even an Adventure server...your an RPG, is in and of itself a contradiction, cause apparently ROLE PLAYING and RP Server are considered two different things? I keep seeing constantly, players completely ignored on their concerns, topics dismissed entirely or rejected because it doesn't fit "Your" view of the world, which is where the problem is, as much as its YOUR world, its the PLAYERS world. When you have multiple topics that range 8+ pages long saying that this is a bad thing and players are hating it, and the answer is, were not changing it so quit asking, your ignoring your players. Reality being again, its the players world so much more then its yours.

Judgement is great, but when the vast majority are saying they don't like it, there's a problem, and sometimes we need to let small things slip through the cracks because FUN should be the primary importance, not how complicated and grinding we can make life for people. Which is what it has become, a grind.

I did find another server, that does not disregard the game and does care about the RP and the players. Not everything the players ask for is approved, but the team is actively on Discord and is actively willing to talk, from the founders to the regular DMs, we can't really say that as Admin hide behind the scenes and getting them to answer is like pulling teeth. I can remember countless messages to Admins trying to get answers or help, but was ignored.

btw, I don't just speak in leveling, its in the fight to get anything, rare items become a nightmare to get to the point that getting them is like winning the lottery, such as the suggestion by the team to move enchanting basins to random dungeons, making Adamantium so hard to get that without power builds there would be none, and the cost of Adamantium is through the roof. Breaking builds yet not offering even a temp rebuild for a specific set time. Ignoring PC ideals because it better suits the NPC or DM ideals better then the players, these are constant complaints yet they are thrown on deaf ears constantly.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Dovesong » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:52 am

Bryce Silver-Wind wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:30 am
Liareth wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:06 am
Bryce Silver-Wind wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:52 pm
Quite honestly, this whole server feels like its splitting at the seems, no one seeming to care what the players think anymore, and trying to recreate WoW in its glory days. Sorry, but even Irongrons comment that we are not an RP server anymore but an RPG? If I wanted to play an RPG, I would play Final Fantasy. Your trying to create an MMO based around the ideals of World of Warcraft. Its starting to show in the Moderators, the DMs and the Admin staff. I know its your server your way, and its why I haven't been playing here anymore. Though I have been watching.
RP has never been Arelith's only concern, from its earliest days until today. It has gone through some periods where balance wasn't a consideration, but how systems work has always been important to the team. The style of this server is adventure - bringing people together and embarking on a grand quest (PvE or PvP!), then heading back to the tavern for a drink afterwards. This server is a mechanically intricate one that encourages fun gameplay in addition to RP. They complement each other.

Just because the team disagrees with what some players say doesn't mean the team doesn't care what they think. It's perfectly reasonable to care what players think but to disagree with what they are saying and/or make a judgement call for the betterment of the server's heath, as they perceive it.

If you're looking for the style of play that disregards the game and cares only about RP, there are other servers that can cater to your needs.

BTW - the team is not trying to recreate WoW. Ironically, if they were, this writ change would have never happened. WoW allows high levels to boost low levels through quests without any penalty.

It was never its ONLY concern no, but to tell your players that your not a RP Server, or even an Adventure server...your an RPG, is in and of itself a contradiction, cause apparently ROLE PLAYING and RP Server are considered two different things? I keep seeing constantly, players completely ignored on their concerns, topics dismissed entirely or rejected because it doesn't fit "Your" view of the world, which is where the problem is, as much as its YOUR world, its the PLAYERS world. When you have multiple topics that range 8+ pages long saying that this is a bad thing and players are hating it, and the answer is, were not changing it so quit asking, your ignoring your players. Reality being again, its the players world so much more then its yours.

Judgement is great, but when the vast majority are saying they don't like it, there's a problem, and sometimes we need to let small things slip through the cracks because FUN should be the primary importance, not how complicated and grinding we can make life for people. Which is what it has become, a grind.

I did find another server, that does not disregard the game and does care about the RP and the players. Not everything the players ask for is approved, but the team is actively on Discord and is actively willing to talk, from the founders to the regular DMs, we can't really say that as Admin hide behind the scenes and getting them to answer is like pulling teeth. I can remember countless messages to Admins trying to get answers or help, but was ignored.

btw, I don't just speak in leveling, its in the fight to get anything, rare items become a nightmare to get to the point that getting them is like winning the lottery, such as the suggestion by the team to move enchanting basins to random dungeons, making Adamantium so hard to get that without power builds there would be none, and the cost of Adamantium is through the roof. Breaking builds yet not offering even a temp rebuild for a specific set time. Ignoring PC ideals because it better suits the NPC or DM ideals better then the players, these are constant complaints yet they are thrown on deaf ears constantly.

This is probably the rudest, most entitled thing I've read in this entire thread, and that's saying something.

A handful of people out of -literal thousands- is in no way "the vast majority"

If the other server's so great, uh. Why are you here, flaming our threads with salty discontent? There's a place for complaints about the team, be it the dev or DM team, and that place is Spyre/Irongron/Dunshine's inbox, not baiting it into a thread.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Nitro » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:58 am

I'm pretty sure this thread has run out its usefulness now to be honest.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Peppermint » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:13 am

Rwby wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:48 pm
Peppermint wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:18 pm
Dunshine wrote:It's not a forum moderators place to approve/reject suggestions, my fault for not noticing this earlier. Just moved that post back to the suggestion box...
Statements like these gravely concern me.

Granted it's been a while since I was an active contributor, but when I was, I was given the power to approve/reject suggestions pertaining to my own projects.

While I am not an active coder now, I do remain in touch with the team to offer feedback. Relatedly, it's to my understanding that 1) the project supervisor was in the right to reject this decision, as he did, 2) the team had already made the decision to uphold that internally.

Am I to understand that the team dynamic has actually shifted, or is what we're witnessing merely the product of internal miscommunication?
This feels like it is entirely off topic, and best reserved for PMs, no?
I chose to address it publicly because an admin had dragged it into the open. Apologies if it seemed gauche.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by PinataPlethora » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:18 am

Bryce Silver-Wind wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:52 pm
Quite honestly, this whole server feels like its splitting at the seems, no one seeming to care what the players think anymore, and trying to recreate WoW in its glory days.
I dunno. The sheer volume of players passing through these days has made finding people to RP with far easier. Back in late 2015, (or somewhere around there, I don't remember) I was ready to quit Arelith for good, because the quality and frequency of RP had gone absolutely down the toilet.

Sure, I don't agree with all of the mechanical changes that have been made, either by this regime or previous ones, and as a now 11 year veteran of this asylum, I was seriously worried when I saw that the staff was moving in a very MMORPG like direction, but I'm happy to say that they've managed to strike a pretty good balance between what I want to have, and what brings everyone else here, despite the disparity between our play styles.

And that's always what it's going to be; a precarious and occasionally messy balancing act. Arelith will never be exactly what you want it to be, because it's a big fat sandbox made for all of the kids to play in. That's what keeps the player count up. That's what keeps the scope of Arelith from narrowing to the point of irrelevancy.

As for this latest writ "debacle", I have yet to experience anything more than a minor annoyance from it, and I completely agree with the reasons behind it.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Twily » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:12 am

.
Lets try to keep this on topic.

Some players will always disagree with the goals any given admin team of a server has in mind for their world.
Players may be essential to an active and functioning world, but that doesn't mean it's their world and it doesn't mean the developers who are volunteers serve us.
We are playing in a world that they think up, design and create, that's how it's always been and how it will always be.
This thread really isn't the place to argue such things.

Regarding the ordeal between YCE and the developers, it's between them to resolve in private. It's not our place as players to draw attention to it, or to shove our way into the matter. (This is exactly why I edited out my reply earlier. ps, thank you DinosaurSpaceProgram for doing the same)
It could be the devs don't entirely agree with the solution to the problem that was used, or it could just be miscommunication, but it doesn't really matter to us. It's up to them to talk and figure it out.

YCE and the devs have both clearly stated they don't want the writ system to have no penalty for high and low levels to be grouping together, and that is fine.
It keeps the lower level areas clear of higher levels and makes the adventuring and leveling experience for the low levels who go there more enjoyable.

Dunshine has said they're open to suggestions on ways to approach this, and so we have a chance to offer our ideas on how the problem could be solved.
It's not about arguing why a specific change should or shouldn't be in place- it's already know what they want the end result to be, we have an opportunity to offer our ideas on how that end goal can be reached.
(The goal being to prevent low levels from benefiting by having a higher level with them in regards to writs and their completion)

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Echohawk » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:57 am

One thing I've run into twice both as the victim and the perpetrator (both incidents accidents and thereby certainly not report worthy). Is that there are times a higher level is either unaware of the various dungeons that have writs because they've never played a 'faction' (Cordor/Brog/Andunor/etc) before, or their summon/companion was on normal aggressiveness and decided that chieftain or (insert related target monster/person) was looking mighty delicious.

While in those situations before in theory you could at least grab the folks that came onto the boss/target creature regardless of level and get that kill rather than having to go through the fight again. Or having to wait for the respawns of an entire area just to find that the lower level who stumbled onto the situation went afk in said section preventing the respawns from being allowed to take place.
There is apologizing in tells that no one meant to cause difficulty, (better still when the high level acts all high and mighty about it (in the case where I was the lowbie who's kill got stolen)). I don't doubt that these mishaps whether intentional or accidental are happening to people who aren't myself.

Writs were not even an aspect of the server a year ago, it's a shame that while there is good, there is now certainly some growing drawbacks with these little tweaks and changes. But this limiter throws you further out of character than before.

You could:
- Be nice and just say no big deal.
- Be irritated and complain some other choice words.
- PVP and start the 'real story'.

But this decision making is based around this World of Warcraft oriented quest mentality (where even if you are high level you still got money and rewards if not xp), and while the writs were a nice idea to boost activity levels in neglected areas of the server as well as giving a more easy in for many roleplay experiences (as well as give something of a more reasonable threat level expectation). But this thread of focus alone seems to have now come to a point where it draws away from the heart of what I knew Arelith to be just a year or two ago now. Stories and factions and effort into adopting groups together.

I'm not so much pushing for action so much as giving a point of view of some of the results of these changes, and yes, I will agree with the topic theme that it does push the envelope of immersion to have those out of character chats with folks just to figure out you will be completely gutted out of any progression in those writs.

I'm probably one of the very few who would actually put a word in for removing them completely.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by yellowcateyes » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:11 am

Twily wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:12 am
the ordeal between YCE and the developers
Ordeal is overstating the situation. Miscommunication and crossed signals happen between team members, particularly in responding to a fast-moving thread like this. I wouldn't worry too much about about it.

For the record, I remain open to reading suggestions on the matter. Preferably, said suggestions will keep in mind the objectives and design of the Writ system, and the reasons why this change was made in the first place. If not, well, try not to get too attached to those suggestions. The issue will be reviewed in time, perhaps when Irongron returns from vacation.

Also, basic civility should always be observed. If you can't be respectful to other members of the community, please don't participate in the discussion.
Dinosaur Space Program is my working partner on Arelith-related projects. If my inbox is full or I take a while to get back to you, feel free to PM them questions or concerns.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by afreshstart » Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:01 am

How about having the writs boost xp gained in a zone instead of directly rewarding xp? A writ would still give the same amount of xp, but it'd boost xp gained by killing monsters in said area by 10x or 20x untill the said amount of xp is reached. This way it wouldn't matter if you had someone in your party outleveling the zone a bit, but having a 30 boost you would be unfeasible.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Jagel » Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:09 am

Not all writs are based on killing mobs.

It also seems part of the design that you have to seek out contractors for work/rewards.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by afreshstart » Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:19 am

contractors can give the gold reward only, and i doubt scouting writs suffer from high levels helping out, so no need to put a level restriction on them

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Sailormoon~s No1 Fan » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:54 am

I feel like low level writs aren't the problem, it's easy enough to find a group or simply solo content. Finding a group for level 15+ writs caused me to ask the dreaded question! And I genuinely felt bad but it only happened twice. However, the main problem was bumping into epics at the golems, Minmir, vamp lair causing me to visit numerous times.

Suggestion: Raise the cap on higher end writs. It's the only time I personally had to resort to ooc.


P.S I love the writ system and appreciate all the hard work that's gone into it. It really helps those with less time!

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Imoen » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:49 pm

My thoughts, some stray to just adventuring in general.

1: A message currently is sent to the writ holder that the person traveling with them is too high, but not the person that is traveling with them. Having it be sent to both party members would be nice.

2: More low level options for Skal. Skal has a large, almost maze-like cellar beneath the inn and lodgehouse that currently has no writ quest assigned to it. Having a writ to clear out the pests from this location could direct low level traffic to some other places, which can be problematic for the low level classes there.

3: Slightly wider ranges in levels for higher level content, or a new dungeon that can cater to a larger level range. (An adjustment of a single level in most cases)

4: Considering expanding Skal's content to scale up to 20, to match the mainland.

5: Expanding on 3, I feel like Guldorand's mountain area could use more wilderness content. Maybe some representation for those Sky Druids. Brog's upper mountains genuinely feel sized right, but Guldorand's feels kind of small in its icy area.

6: I personally like the 3 scale limitation (Allowing those slightly higher to still aid a friend for those late end 20 quests). At worst, I would argue one level higher. The Writs haven't made mentoring more difficult when doing a teacher/student knight/squire relationship, rather, (As intended), we would simply go to the content without a writ.

In general though, the writ system has been quite a boon, and in retrospect after getting past the sting of a "nerf" as some might call it, the balance of no more than 3 higher off the max still allows a wide level range in many cases.

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