The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

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Void
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Void » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:54 am

afreshstart wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:01 am
How about having the writs boost xp gained in a zone instead of directly rewarding xp? A writ would still give the same amount of xp, but it'd boost xp gained by killing monsters in said area by 10x or 20x untill the said amount of xp is reached. This way it wouldn't matter if you had someone in your party outleveling the zone a bit, but having a 30 boost you would be unfeasible.
No, because that would be encouraging circle grinding.

The writ system is fun because it gives you goal, and rewards for completing it.

Just boosting xp wouldn't be the same.

Besides, there are goals that are not about killing. For example "scout location X". They're often parts of combat writs as well.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Void » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:08 am

Liareth wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:06 am
If you're looking for the style of play that disregards the game and cares only about RP, there are other servers that can cater to your needs.
Roleplaying aspect is the main attractive point of arelith, though.

There aren't many alternative servers (I think there are about 3 of them, with significantly smaller populace), there aren't many games that focus on RP, and for mechanical fun, there are things like Dark Souls 3.

So with all that in mind, it is unwise to ignore this aspect, as it is probably the primary thing that brings the people here in the first place.

There are tons of games that can beat arelith with mechanics, effortlessly. There's only one RP-focused arelith.
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Cortex
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Cortex » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:24 am

Arelith holds RP quality in high regard for the most part, but it does the same with the gameplay aspect.
:)

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Peppermint
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Peppermint » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:39 am

Huh. The team took the 'ignore mechanics' approach years ago. There was a lovely period there where Arelith peaked in the single digits.

Speaking as a mechanically-minded player, I'd hate to go back to that.

Void
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Void » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:57 am

Peppermint wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:39 am
Huh. The team took the 'ignore mechanics' approach years ago. There was a lovely period there where Arelith peaked in the single digits.

Speaking as a mechanically-minded player, I'd hate to go back to that.
Nobody said to ignore mechanics.

The reason I'm here is because of RP atmosphere.

The server atmosphere greatly improved in past two years ( I rememebr very unpleasant experiences from few years ago), and it woudl be best not to lose it.

A lot of people are here because of RP and unique experience. And the experience is what makes arelith unique.

If you start concentrating on mechanics too much, you'll risk to lose the unique element that made the server attractive in the first place.

At least that's the way I see it.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:35 am

I think most of us can agree that mechanics are indeed important.
It becomes problematic when mechanics take precedence over world immersion. And I know, we've been throwing that word around a lot. "Immersion". What does it really mean?

The Merriam-Webster dictionary gives a definition: Absorbing involvement of something. To be deeply involved, immersed. In our case it's deeply involved in the world that is Arelith, that is the Forgotten Realms, and most importantly, deeply involved in Roleplay.

Many of us feel that this immersion becomes an afterthought when we do see changes that do not make sense from an In Character point of view. And while most people on this server are capable of playing around that, it's the prioritization that is truly concerning to us.

In an MMO, gameplay mechanics will always be prioritized over world immersion. We've seen this time and again in the popular game (to use a good example) known as World of Warcraft. Blizzard has shown very clearly that they don't care about immersion as much as they care about where they're going with the gameplay mechanics and options.

But on a persistent Roleplaying server, on Arelith that is, gameplay mechanics should not be prioritized over immersion. I still think they're very important, but not at the expense of the immersion. A good example would be the stance that no monster-cuddling is allowed. Even something as small as using IC chat for OOC chat isn't allowed and with good reason - it would break the immersion!

All we ask is that the game be designed around the world, and not the world be designed around the game.


Dr_Hazard89
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:41 am

Peppermint wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:39 am
Huh. The team took the 'ignore mechanics' approach years ago. There was a lovely period there where Arelith peaked in the single digits.

Speaking as a mechanically-minded player, I'd hate to go back to that.
I don't know that the population boost has anything to do with mechanics. I attributed it to how effortless and quick leveling became, attracting a broader audience.

The primary focus of d&d and roleplaying is story telling, not mechanics. The mechanics are there to enable the storytelling~
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

Dr_Hazard89
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:42 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:35 am
I think most of us can agree that mechanics are indeed important.
It becomes problematic when mechanics take precedence over world immersion. And I know, we've been throwing that word around a lot. "Immersion". What does it really mean?

The Merriam-Webster dictionary gives a definition: Absorbing involvement of something. To be deeply involved, immersed. In our case it's deeply involved in the world that is Arelith, that is the Forgotten Realms, and most importantly, deeply involved in Roleplay.

Many of us feel that this immersion becomes an afterthought when we do see changes that do not make sense from an In Character point of view. And while most people on this server are capable of playing around that, it's the prioritization that is truly concerning to us.

In an MMO, gameplay mechanics will always be prioritized over world immersion. We've seen this time and again in the popular game (to use a good example) known as World of Warcraft. Blizzard has shown very clearly that they don't care about immersion as much as they care about where they're going with the gameplay mechanics and options.

But on a persistent Roleplaying server, on Arelith that is, gameplay mechanics should not be prioritized over immersion. I still think they're very important, but not at the expense of the immersion. A good example would be the stance that no monster-cuddling is allowed. Even something as small as using IC chat for OOC chat isn't allowed and with good reason - it would break the immersion!

All we ask is that the game be designed around the world, and not the world be designed around the game.
Well said. Agreed.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

Rwby
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Rwby » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:58 am

I have another writ story which will illustrate why the current system continues to make me sadface.

Player A and B are outside the Nomad, looking to form an adventuring party to tackle the areas around Guldorand. Clearly they picked a bad time, because it's a little slow on the uptake. A good 45 minutes passes, eating up considerably into our adventuring time. Eventually at once, two PCs show up, attracted by the sign on the floor suggesting the party would like to adventure around to Guldorand. Lots of roleplay ensues, the party builds up, lot of character interaction is established and we set off to Guldorand.

We arrive in guildy as a party, ready to take on our epic adventure. [Only, ya'know, specifically not an epic one.] Off go some members of the party to get writs. Play A isn't fussed, they have some relatively low level ones for the area, but are an RP first, XP later kinda person. Player B has limited playtime and it's quite late, they're more interested in their writs. Player C doesn't mind. Player D has no-tells on.

We form up, and B and C go get their writs.
It turns out, as they leave the Agent, that unbeknownst to us, Player D is level 24 [Or more]. There's some in character discussion about the beuracracy of the Agent system. It's pretty awkward and immersion breaking, and Player D goes along with it becautifully in character, seeming utterly oblivious to the mechanical side. Credit to them, they're a perfectly good RPer, with lovely emotes and dialogue.

This forces us to a really awkward situation as we trek out on writs, where the best soultion I can come up with without breaking character [Worth noting at this point that as a 3some, we'd be pretty cautious of our chances of surviving, our party dynamic was missing some pretty clear roles, and by this point we've also been party searching for over an hour and playtime is shrinking away...] Was to abritarily kick player D from the party, so that player C/B might have a chance to doing their writs. Of course, if player D happened to get the key kills on the boss for example [and being significantly higher level, they might just do that.] It'd almost be as good as not doing them at all.

This left player B very frustrated, player D mechanically disadvantaged, player A frustrated at the system, and player C nonplussed. Now one can say this is player D's fault for having notells on. But no-tells can be forced by a DM, and no-tells can be a personal choice to avoid harassment.

No-one here was trying to level with the help of a higher level character. We only found out player D's estimated level by the virtue of they were blocking level 20 Writs. Our choices were ultimately try to fudge it, with player D, break character and tell them to leave. Or just give up entirely on adventuring for XP at all.

It felt like an awkward experience, and affected all of us negatively in different ways when we all had very different goals and were different people.

Food for thought.

magistrasa
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by magistrasa » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:54 am

I've read through this whole thread and I can't find anything that really reflects my experiences, so I'm sharing my thoughts in hopes that it's conducive to the original goal of understanding how the changes have affected people's roleplay, as well as the later developed goal of contributing ideas to "fix the problem" - it does kinda get away from me at certain points, though. While the tone may at times come across as trying to tell the reader how they should think and act, I'm purely trying to convey my own mindset, with a taste of bewilderment at the fact that my take seems so out of place here.

My personal experience with writs:
I've been back on the server after an extended break, leveling a shiny new lowbie in the UD, and I didn't even realize level caps were implemented. Even before the cap was in play, I can't really recall an occasion in which writs were being conquered with PUGs where a member of the group was more than two levels higher than the rest of us. Writs are built for areas in a level range. If you're putting together a party IC and you say, "Hey, I'm going to explore this area!" the people who are going to be interested should, in theory (and practice, from what I've experienced), be in the suitable level range. Which isn't to say I didn't go out with high level characters often - it was impossible for me NOT to back in the day, all my friends were maxed out and dragged me into epic hell for hilarious hijinks, I was exploring the lowerdark at level 9 for God's sake - but we weren't doing lowbie writs together.

On my present character, I had one person message me IG asking what level I was, but that's only because he was a few levels over me and was going from a zone I was completing a writ in, to a zone just over my level so I didn't have any writs for it. I went with him anyways! Why the heck wouldn't I? Not only was it decent XP, but I was done with my writs for the day and wouldn't have been able to go to that zone on my own. (Speaking of which, how is the fact that you can only take 3 writs a day factoring into any of this discussion?)

Back before the cap was put in place, I never had high level characters dragging me through my writ zones - though on the occasion that a friendly epic wanted to help power grind me into epics, the way that happened was by going to high level zones, not grinding low level writs. I did, however, play the role of writ guardian a few times for a friend of mine that I was trying to get into the game - but without that OOC investment, I would have never even considered intruding on their quest. Once they got a hang of the game, I would actually invent new quests for them and the lowbie friends they made from finishing writs once they had no more writs to take - things like, "There's a shrine somewhere deep in this area, I'll pay you if you go check on it and make sure it hasn't been desecrated." There's still reasons to party up and head out that isn't entirely dependant on what level you are and what writs you have.

The only thing that I would have a problem with is if I had been questing together with this one roleplayer and really enjoyed their company, only to realize a level gap had grown between us and we could no longer use writs as a backdrop for our shenanigans. Which has happened before for me, on the occasion where the gap grew so large that we couldn't accept the same writs. But at that point... if you like playing with this person so much, just... do it anyways? And you can finish your writs when they're not around. If you don't do all your writs every day, there's a point where you just gotta say, "Oh Well!" and just do whatever you want, regardless of optimal XP gain.

When someone in my group is unexpectedly high level and they start killing the XP, it honestly just makes me more interested in the roleplay, since lack of payoff in XP means less investment in NWN's simple, repetitive combat - and that investment gets poured into something that can never be dampened or diminished by game mechanics and limitations. Though it's worth noting that when people are killing the experience, they usually bow out anyways! People be chill like that yo. And that's my Personal Experience™

Opinion piece:
From an OOC perspective, the lowbie's not really playing the game when they're sitting back and letting the epic character one-shot everything, and the epic character isn't experiencing anything new because they've probably grinded this area into dust a thousand times and my God it's probably stale at that point. From an IC perspective (purely looking at combat, at least - dialogue aside), the lowbie is going to sit there either feeling bored or utterly impotent, while the epic character is... Well, to be fair, they're probably enjoying the feeling of high-and-mightiness.

I've been mentee and mentor in that sort of uneven power level roleplay relationship, and typically the most entertaining (and educational!) areas for that to take place are the areas where you are vastly underleveled for writs, but comfortable enough to where you won't die in one hit (probably - hopefully). Like what was mentioned before in this thread, there's a comfortable middle ground where XP just so coincidentally happens to be halfway decent for BOTH parties involved. So for the people who are clinging to mentor scenarios... I dunno, try the shadow plane? Guide your lowbie friend to NEW areas they wouldn't be able to get to on their own? Even outside of mentor roleplay, if you're realizing you're too strong for whatever area you're in and you're with a group of strong people, try branching out into new territory, not just cutting your way through the same path as always.

Also, I dont know about the argument for higher level folks having a hard time finding parties. If you went through all those levels without making any adventuring buddies or developing any awareness of who's around your power level, I really don't know what to tell you. (Though maybe I'm just saying that because I play in the UD so I'm constantly hyperaware of who can and cannot curbstomp me when I'm being snarky.)

At the end of the day, the game is what you make it. You can make it a mindless grind fest, you can make it a daily quest speedrun, you can make it a roleplay adventure, and you can make it any combination of those things and more. If you can't complete a writ because of your party, you need to own the decision you make upon that realization. You decide what you're making the game in that moment.

To be clear, I can see why people can get so dedicated to The Grind because they see leveling as a means to an end - lots of people on the server have told me that roleplay begins at level 30, after all - so getting set back from that goal can be really frustrating and it's easy to see why people would want to circumvent those setbacks and seek mechanics that facilitate their advancement. But for me the game has always been about the journey. Arelith has such a vast and beautiful world and the writ system has honestly helped me explore it. I think the most engaging sort of roleplay is the roleplay that puts you in situations you've never been in before, and you're forced to adapt to it. You learn a little more about yourself, IC and OOC, in those new situations. The fact that arelith has such a big world and hosts so many different players makes it the perfect venue for those new situations. Writs are a feature to help your character progress in power, but they're not central to the arelith experience. Writs shouldn't be viewed as a limitation, but as yet another backdrop to your personal story, a springboard for your own quests of discovery and self-discovery. They shouldn't stop you from exploring places and meeting people. They DON'T stop you from exploring places and meeting people. The only thing that stops you is you.

Roleplayer-side solutions:
- If you need a party, hang around the writ keeper and ask people where they're going ICly. If you're headed the same direction, you're probably the same level. Mystery solved. (Can't you see player dialogue with writ keepers now too? If you're really desperate yet socially anxious, just wade through the chat logs.)
- Hang around the area you're trying to complete a writ in. Long shot for higher levels, but there's been plenty occasions where a party found me rather than me finding a party.
- if you can't do a writ... Maybe don't take it?
- if it's a consistent enough problem, maybe only pick up the writ after you've got a party together for it and you know you all can do it
- if you really really want to do a writ and can't find folks for it, post a message on a board somewhere and see who bites. You're not the only level 17 character on the server and from how this thread makes it sound, you're probably not the only one having a hard time making friends
- Have fun and be yourself

Developer-side solutions:
- Widen the acceptable level range, or maybe tweak it and adjust specifically for the more difficult quests? No reason why a lv1-6 zone quest should see a lv9 character being necessary for the writ, but maybe a lv15 character is having trouble making friends for this one really hard writ so they call in their lv19 druid buddy and all their 8 billion summons to come together to kick this dungeon in the kiester before bedtime
- make it so that you can drop writs without being prevented from picking up another writ to replace it. Like, let us only complete 3 writs a day, but swap them out when we see they're too hard (or too easy!)
- remove writs for like a month and see how people like it. Give us all a painful reminder of the Dark Times. (I'm joking don't actually do this)
- I believe in you

I'd be okay with writs dying forever but only after I hit lv30 kthx /thread

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Peppermint
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Peppermint » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:50 am

I dunno, Rwby. It sounds like player D was kind of a jerk.

Way too high level for the area, didn't take IC hints, refused to listen to OOC hints.

This kind of thing could've happened before the writ system, too.

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Ebonstar
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Ebonstar » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:30 am

magistrasa wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:54 am

To be clear, I can see why people can get so dedicated to The Grind because they see leveling as a means to an end - lots of people on the server have told me that roleplay begins at level 30, after all - so getting set back
its funny that you put this in, because when I first came here to Arelith there were three major reasons.

1/ A fully functional Underdark with monster characters possible

2/ No low magic low level with the only way to gain anything was to grind preset quests that could only be done with parties

3/ RP drives the world and begins when you first enter the World.

This last one is very important to me being that i have played this game since i first saw it at a lock-in at a local masonic lodge and one of the Chaperones was a homebrew DM. That was when i was 7 so yes ive been playing PnP for a long time, and on a computer since the golden boxes.

RP begins when you leave the boat. Why did this gather me in? simple because if RP only began at level 30 when by game standards everyone is a demigod of sorts, why do we bother having levels at all.

RP begins when we step off the boat. This is made possible because now we can use the Mirrors for alterations so everyone doesnt have the base brown look when they first get off the boat.

For those players who say RP doesnt begin until level 30, then they have my condolences, because Arelith is so much better a place if you concentrate on the story and the journey instead of the end game. The companions you meet, and explore with, and drink with, and get into tavern brawls with, and run from Dragons with are what makes the game and this place so wonderful.

I have played other servers, even ones with haks and with every character having to be approved to make sure each player had a beleivable character to fit the custom lore of that place.

I dont play those places anymore, and you want to know why? Because RP is just as important at level 2 than it is at level 30, and Arelith gets that right.

Each and every character we breath life into has nothing to do with mechanics or levels. Yes its a game, but its more than that. It is our community that we have adopted as our own, and RP starts from the first step into the World that the Admin, Dev, and DM teams have created for us to journey through.

That is what is most important, the Journey not the end game being demigods, from the very first step off the Boats
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Alox
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Alox » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:17 am

I think RP begins once you get off the boat, which is great.

I also think that the writs are useful for getting lowbies to find each other and form companionships, that will later play an important factor on higher level RP. For instance every now and again a new "tightknit" Skal group comes to the main land and introduces a new faction, doing writs together plays a strong role in this.

My biggest gripe with the writ system is the sharp 2 levels above the range - requires too much OOC communication. I would rather see that for instance level 23+ are excluded from assisting others with their writs, but below that everyone can help everyone. No one is going stay permanent on 22 to power people through writs. RP wise you will then only need to know if someone is still in the "writ-sphere" or has advanced beyond.

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