The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

[Rwby]

I posted a suggestion!

Look at me, being all constructive.

It might not directly relate to the high/level vs low level issue, but it was a suggestion.

I don't like option A.
I do like option B, more risk = more reward, but at the same time that seems an utter nightmare to code since PCs can leave and join the party at will during the writ, and such a system sounds like it would take you stupidly long to code in such a way as to be immune to exploits. [Maybe I'm wrong. In which case, this sounds great!]

There's also my earlier suggestion in nutering the XP reward of the quest [The out of character side] while leaving the gold reward [The In character side.] Your character after all, isn't going to know they didn't get XPed!
This would be particularly effective with my attached suggestion regarding writs only available once, and poses characters and players a really hard choice.

Do I go to the fortress of Doom with Jim and Jess, the junior guards, for fame and glory?
Or do I go the Fortress of Doom with Bob, the mighty Paladin of the Nine Hells, complete my quest gloriously, but feel like I learned nothing?
Either way, you complete the quest and get the reward. Both pose in character challenges, neither are immersion breaking, and everyone would be free to handle them whichever way they wished.

[Dovesong]

Guys. Seriously.

Just don't party.

I do this with my husband all the time. He's too high level for my paladin to finish her writs but he can still come along, RP, heal me up, and help me kill things.

Do I still run risks because he CANNOT kill them for me? Yup. But we can still hang out together, get RP in, and I can still finish my writs, albeit nowhere near as easily as if we were partied and he could just blender things for me.

[Peppermint]

Some things we're already considering:
- Limiting the qty of daily writs when PCs get help from higher levels. This means you can finish a writ with even 10 level 30's accompanying you, without any issue and for the full reward, but the NPC would then either have a higher time-out before he gives you new ones, or gives you less new ones for a while.
- Another idea that came up would be to limit the XP/Gold reward based on the party level used to accomplish the writ.

Considering that one of the stated intents of this update (and IMO, the more important part) is keeping high level characters from clogging low level areas, then wouldn't the first suggestion here completely undermine that intent? I suppose I'm not following the team's direction here.

The latter might work, on the other hand, if it scales in a sense similar to diminishing returns on experience. Though that seems far less generous than the current system.

FWIW, Dovesong's solution is perfectly valid.

[Rwby]

It's valid as in, it totally works. But I assumed that was one of those exploit things.

[Peppermint]

Let me clarify.

Traveling with someone and not partying with them is perfectly fine. Players have been doing this for 'mentor rp' forever. The xp script explicitly has a LoS check to allow a mentor to remain close by without diminishing xp (in the event that you simply remain unpartied).

I can't imagine that'd be a problem with writs, provided you're not gaming the system too hard. Putting them on -guard while they kill everything? Probably a no no. Hanging back, but dropping in if they're about to die? Probably fine. The basic XP script plays exactly the same way and was scripted that way specifically to facilitate that kind of interaction.

ETA:

Think about it like this: from a developer perspective, it's really a matter of efficiency and incentive vs. reward.

The developers don't want higher level characters helping lower level ones with writs all the time, because it results in high levels in low level dungeons. That's a bad thing, because it's less fun for other low level characters in the same spots.

It's also a bad thing, because challenge is no longer commensurate with reward.

So the developers introduce an update to make writ-gaming between high levels/low levels harder to do.

You can still do it, but it's less efficient. It's less efficient, so less people are doing it/benefiting from it.

At this point, the goal has been accomplished regardless. If the occasional high level hangs with a low level in a dungeon, that's fine. It's not an epidemic; it's a statistical fluke.

[Jagel]

A mentor hanging back reinstates some of the challenge too when it comes to writs that require the slaying of a number of enemies and even bosses.

[yellowcateyes]

Dovesong's solution is perfectly fine.

As was made abundantly clear in this thread (and the last), the writ system is one of incentives and not restrictions.

You can still do mentor RP and hang out with your friends. No script is stopping you, no DM will come down on you. This has happened prior to the change, prior to the writ system, and will continue to happen long afterwards.

However, the system will no longer reward the blender-ing of low-level mobs by higher-level PCs in organized quest-turnover tours. And the system will no longer offer high-level characters an excuse to to believe that they are doing lower-level characters a favor by inserting themselves into an otherwise level-appropriate adventuring party. Many of Arelith's players, believe it or not, are here to play a game.

As many posters have pointed out, bowing out as a high-level character is a matter of basic courtesy. That the writ system was causing many to forget this was another clear sign that the reward system needed to be changed.

Encouraging (or discouraging) behaviors is a matter of incentives and efficiency. People are still free to roleplay and journey together however they want to. The only thing that's changed is what behavior is given extra XP/gold by the writ system.

[MissEvelyn]

I can't imagine that'd be a problem with writs, provided you're not gaming the system too hard. Putting them on -guard while they kill everything? Probably a no no. Hanging back, but dropping in if they're about to die? Probably fine. The basic XP script plays exactly the same way and was scripted that way specifically to facilitate that kind of interaction

You can still do mentor RP and hang out with your friends. No script is stopping you, no DM will come down on you.

Most of us are worried that we will, in fact, get punished for roleplaying in these scenarios. When does a DM decide we're gaming the system versus doing RP? There has to be a fine line, a clear distinct ruling that explains exactly what we're allowed to do and what we're not.

Is it not allowed to use -guard with a high-level now, even if RP is being made? And how high is too high?

Mechanical limitations are one thing, and you don't need rules for them, because they generally self-regulate (example: see the 3 class levels 'rule'). But when we're discussing "gaming the system" we're entering into muddy gray areas where that statement means something different to everyone.

[yellowcateyes]

Arguably, inviting the assistance of a higher level was 'gaming the system' prior to the change.

In fact, a few posters have questioned why we changed the system of incentives rather than just punish the problem cases - the answer is that no rules were broken; the culprit is a flawed set of incentives.

No new rules were announced because there were no change in the rules. Roleplay as you always have roleplayed.

(I'm not sure how frequently I can repeat this without veering into redundancy.)

[Jagel]

Also I seem to remember that the first tool in the DM arsenal is to initiate a polite conversation and explain why this or that behavior should be discontinued.

[Void]

Maybe some numbers need to be tweaked, I'm not at home to look, but immersion breaking?

It is. Because having a certain person in a party magically makes an agent not accept a writ.

So the best course of action here, is posting actual alternatives, and not going back and forth about why it should/shouldn't be changed/removed.

If the idea was to reduce player use of high level friends, then the right idea would be to affect xp reward afterward.. Because xp does not exist from IC perspective. Gold reward should remain the same.
Current system, instead, blocks your progress entirely.

Which is makes zero sense - since when does the agent even care HOW did you kill those spiders?

I'd also pretty much love to have visible level ranges removed from contract. Because Levels shouldn't exist from IC perspective too.

[MissEvelyn]

I'd also pretty much love to have visible level ranges removed from contract. Because Levels shouldn't exist from IC perspective too.

The other day a character said their document states Level 0 - 6 and that they had no idea what that means. While I chuckled at it, it's indeed very immersion-breaking.

But, enough about that. What can be improved? The limitation needs a hard re-work. As it's already been suggested, removing XP rewards would be one solution. Fluctuating rewards would be another solution, so that the higher level you are above your quest, the less of an XP reward you'll be getting. But kills should always count, no matter who in the party slew the creature.

[yellowcateyes]

But kills should always count, no matter who in the party slew the creature.

As said prior, removing the limitation is a non-starter. Having higher-level characters complete lower-level characters' quest goals for them is not something that will be rewarded.

To quote Irongron on the subject:

There are always mechanics to prevent low level characters benefiting from high level friends. Having to consider the level difference with potential party members has ALWAYS been a thing. RP server or no, Arelith is still a game.

[Void]

But, enough about that. What can be improved? The limitation needs a hard re-work. As it's already been suggested, removing XP rewards would be one solution. Fluctuating rewards would be another solution, so that the higher level you are above your quest, the less of an XP reward you'll be getting. But kills should always count, no matter who in the party slew the creature.

Writ system should continue to offer XP rewards. They've already been nerfed at least twice, and basically writs are the main source of xp when you don't have 72 hours per day to circle grind.

However, I'd prefer reduced xp rewards in case of "overleveled friends in the party", instead of blocking your progress.
Blocking progress doesn't make sense, because the agent doesn't care how the job is done. Reducing xp rewards DOES make sense, as with powerful friends you learn less from completing the writ. The rewards should not be reduced when everybody is within expected level range.

Gold reward should be unaffected, as the agent doesn't care how the job is done.

[yellowcateyes]

Those overworked agents never asked to be used as pawns in forum debates.

[Ork]

Am I drinking crazy juice or did people really suggest removing the writ XP? We don't deserve nice things.

[Rwby]

Am I drinking crazy juice or did people really suggest removing the writ XP? We don't deserve nice things.

I think I suggested removing the writ XP if you completed the writ with a character more than three levels above it. So a more generous version of the current system.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Some things we're already considering:
- Limiting the qty of daily writs when PCs get help from higher levels. This means you can finish a writ with even 10 level 30's accompanying you, without any issue and for the full reward, but the NPC would then either have a higher time-out before he gives you new ones, or gives you less new ones for a while.
- Another idea that came up would be to limit the XP/Gold reward based on the party level used to accomplish the writ.

I believe either or some combination of both of these things would be preferable to the current system, although I favor the latter and have indicated some measure of desire towards this since the conversation started.

[Twily]

Some things we're already considering:
- Limiting the qty of daily writs when PCs get help from higher levels. This means you can finish a writ with even 10 level 30's accompanying you, without any issue and for the full reward, but the NPC would then either have a higher time-out before he gives you new ones, or gives you less new ones for a while.
- Another idea that came up would be to limit the XP/Gold reward based on the party level used to accomplish the writ.

I think both of these ideas are quite good as well

Edited after Dunshine's (and DinosaurSpaceProgram's) reply
(not that it makes a difference since I was quoted. didn't edit fast enough)

[Dunshine]

It's not a forum moderators place to approve/reject suggestions, my fault for not noticing this earlier. Just moved that post back to the suggestion box.

As said, suggestions are considered, but I fully agree with YCA that a removal of the level restriction entirely is a no-go. It should be an alternative to have any chance of being considered.

And being considered does not equal being approved/used.

We'll discuss this when Irongron has returned. But in the meantime go ahead and post suggestions.

[Dinosaur Space Program]

Please continue to think up suggestions even if they don't fit within the guidelines of 'We aren't removing level restrictions' perfectly. YCE's stance is just making it clear how he is moving forward on this.

After all, even suggestions that end up being discarded might have a glimmer of something usable in them. There is no harm in problem solving, only in the assumption they have to be used.


Edited out of consideration for the original response material being removed.

[MissEvelyn]

I really like Twily's suggestion as an alternative!

[Twily]

I edited my suggestion a few times to elaborate, since it was removed from rejected. I could explain the math if anyone isn't seeing it, but I didn't want to clog up the post if it wasn't needed.

[R0GUE]

Some things we're already considering:
- Limiting the qty of daily writs when PCs get help from higher levels. This means you can finish a writ with even 10 level 30's accompanying you, without any issue and for the full reward, but the NPC would then either have a higher time-out before he gives you new ones, or gives you less new ones for a while.
- Another idea that came up would be to limit the XP/Gold reward based on the party level used to accomplish the writ.

I think either of those would be excellent ideas, both could be roleplayed without tells, they allow those of us with limited time to get one writ in a night at least without having to hunt down the exact right level people, and they make sense from an IC perspective (higher level characters would obviously get a higher cut because they'd be more respected by the writ agents).

Thank you so much for providing some clarity and giving us an insight into what might be happening in regard to this change!

[MissEvelyn]

Just so you all know, Irongron is on a holiday currently and doesn't/shouldn't take time to read through all these posts and write up a longer response than he did. But because of the short response it may have come across more blunt then he would normally be. Can't speak for him obviously, but just wanted to point that out.

My view on the matter is that I'm agreeing with the basic need of limiting the writ system in some way to prevent high levels helping low levels cruise through their quests repeatedly. But I'm not too fond about the current way it's handled, I think there are alternatives that would work better, and we have been discussing alternatives in the team.

So don't think this feedback is ignored. YCE already indicated he's open to suggestions in here, and Irongron also indicated there may be tweaks.

I don't envy Irongron who has to go through pages upon pages of forum threads
In seriousness though, staff and especially Dunshine you're doing a great job keeping it together - and putting up with the passion of us players. Thank you =)