ammunition changes.

[One Two Three Five]

Is there a genuinely good reason rangers and AA's can't just put a scaling dmg infinite ammo property on their weapons that can be toggled on/off at will, allowing arrow management to be saved for "special" ammo?

The absolute funniest part of this whole 'making arrows has to be a second job hope you're a high schooler with summer off' system we've had, uh, forever, and doesn't appear to have changed- is that the fixed level server more or less does this. You enchant and essence your bow and it then shoots arrows with +whatever element on it. So it's doable on Arelith it's just, apparently, something the team would rather not do in lieu of ever more arcane methods to make a stack of arrows do +8 elemental damage.

[Avatar-bob]

Before I get into this post, I want to note that I recognize that Arelith is a private server and the developers will do with it what they wish. Regardless of any disagreements I may have with these changes (or any others), I am thankful that the dev team here is working to constantly maintain and update the server.

Onto the main topic:

I've been holding off on making any posts regarding archery issues until I could reach epic levels on an archer. With this new change however, I feel I should add to this conversation before the recent changes get set in stone.

This update looks at one of more tedious issues with any ranged weapon class: Ammunition acquisition and scaling. This is an issue that has been glaringly obvious throughout my time as a Ranger/AA. Using a combat style that requires a constant supply of high quality consumables to reach any form of acceptable damage is... troubling to say the least. The only other area where this might apply is with rogue consumables, though there is an argument to be made there.

So how does the recent changes affect this? Well... here is how I would break this down:

"- Bundle properties no longer transfer to created ammunition. That is to say, enchanting a bundle and adding essences / spells to a bundle will not transfer those benefits to produced items. Similarly, it is no longer possible to apply essences directly on ammunition. This system has been replaced with assembly templates (see below)."

It's been stated by others, but I'll say it again. It seems rather odd that we now need an intermediary to apply temporary essences to ammunition. Unless I'm mistaken, the Template only works for Bundles, you can't directly use a stack of arrows on it? (Someone correct me if I have this wrong). So if I loot a set of arrows, or purchase some from a shop, I cannot modify them anymore with temporary essences. This forces us to use the bundle system and makes ammunition outside that system less desirable. Don't get me wrong, I think bundles are great.... its just some times I'd like to spruce up that cool stack of poison arrows I found with an additional 1d6 points of divine retribution. Why is not a thing?

"- Recipes for existing ammunition bundles streamlined, with fewer intermediary steps and steadier crafting point cost / DC scaling."

This was long overdue. For the longest time I could not fathom how it was acceptable to require an archer to divide their crafting points into three different professions just to make base ammunition (consumables no less). Was is realistic? Yes, Fun? No. I have, however, noticed that this does not apply to regular arrow crafting, only bundles specifically (Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong here). The book of trade still shows ingots for Silver, Steel, Iron arrows (not the bundles). If we are only expected to use bundles, why not remove all these items and make the "arrows" carpentry selection only used for very special types of crafted arrows? Also, one very small gripe.... You went all the way as to remove all non-carpentry requirements from bundle crafting... yet there is a casting mold in there? Sure its one point of art crafting.... but really, couldn't we just have completely simplified?

Assembly Templates:
-I'm not going to copy paste the entire update, but here is where things really go off the rails.

My initial reaction to Templates positive. This is before I read the fine print. It seemed that the devs had found a way to allow archers to heavily customize their damage types in the long term. Much like a warrior carrying around a different sword for each encounter, finally Archers could carry around a number of templates to permanently augment their arsenal. It always annoyed me that permanent essences were not-so-permanent for archers. The expense of high quality enchantments and essences was multiplied by 100 because I chose to use bow as opposed to using, well, any other combat style. Again, realistic, Yes, fun, No. This, combined with every other aspect of crafting and ranged combat made my archer outrageously expensive right from the get-go.

With templates this seemed to put archery investment almost on par with other combat classes. Except for the fact that the template itself had total charges.

WHY.

Is there a reason to triple up on charges? Seriously. Total charges, bundle charges, temporary charges? Did one of the Dev's characters get killed by an archer and then say "we'll see who has the last laugh...".
I'm kidding around of course, but in all seriousness, why could we not let permanent essences be permanent? Archery should not come with a premium price tag. Perhaps I'm missing a crucial component here (If I am, someone please let me know). Maybe there is joke at my expense, but from an initial viewpoint, this just seems like we are right back where we started. Ranged combat classes are far from top tier; there is no need to make us break the bank just to participate in tough content.

Other notes about templates:
-As above, templates shoehorn us into using bundles exclusively. This seems like a lost opportunity.
-Also, as many in this thread have pointed out, templates (mainly the nicer ones) require forging and/or alchemy/herbalism. While bundles above were streamlined, we just got put right back into profession point division. Its like we solved one problem and then created another shade of the same problem we just solved. Multiplied by the temporary nature of Templates, this just destroys all enthusiasm I had for this update. Look, I understand you want people to explore your crafting system, but you shouldn't sacrifice fun at the cost of it. We already have to worry about making our ranged weapons (I'm looking at you Ashwood Longbow), why must we double down on this process? -and yes, not everyone wants to have to involve themselves with crafting. I 100% agree with other people on this point. It should be an option, not a hard requirement.
-As for the idea of finding other players to enchant you're template, I'm okay with the current state of the temporary slot (see below). Temporary essences can always be used in place of spells. I will say though, it would be nice to have a means of "emptying" a slot without using bundles on it.

"Be aware that templates will accept weapon-enhancing spells that previously could not be cast on bundles. The power of an unstable essence slot will depend on the Caster Level of the spell that fills it. It would be wise to experiment."

Okay, this is probably for another forum topic entirely but... this is just needlessly cryptic. Why do patch notes need this level of secrecy. Granted, this is not the first time this crap has been pulled, but this is just infuriating in my opinion. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but this seems like the equivalent of "figure it out". Which is ridiculous as updates go. If you change an entire system on the player base, the players would expect that you give them full details of what has been changed. Not only that, but since the devs have already spent energy to post the update notes, it would have been trivial to add a couple more sentences explaining what this actually means. I apologize for the mini-rant here but this last paragraph must have trigged me more than I expected.

Summary:
These changes started with the right intentions, but somewhere along the way, they regressed into more of the same. Sure, there are a few positive points, but these points are completely overshadowed by the glaring issues still present in the ranged combat system. As a ranged combat player, I've already got enough to worry about without have to deal with excessive ammunition problems. As the system is now, it would not take much to refine these changes into something wonderful -- a rough gem to a cut diamond I suppose... Please take a second pass at ammunition, you're close to getting it right.

[Kenji]

It's alright, folks, I'm on sabbatical, and I've got all the time in the world. It only took me three days after the update to figure everything out. I was also visiting my in-laws, too, mind you (woah!). Here's summary for everybody! (Please sense the sarcasm in my enthusiasm)

TL;DR Even with Gift of Crafting, being a 'Self-Reliant' (DIY everything) Archer is pretty much a tall order or nigh impossible. But to get on par to where one was pre-update, I will use the Simple Template as the pivot for crafting points distribution.

Archers will need: Forging 8, Herbalism 13, and Art crafting 1 (3 if you count amethyst, gems are easy to find, however) to be self-reliant on Simple Templates - This is not accounting for Alchemy essences.

Alright, here's the data, now feel free to expand on your feedbacks. A lot of these can be found on the IG crafting menu, but not on the wiki. So DCs or materials may be changed in a later date.

Code: Select all

Templates	Stable	Unstable	Raw Material	Gems		Ingots		Gears		Art Crafting	Herbalism
Basic (DC5)	0	1		Softwood	Aventurine	Tin
Simple (DC15)	1	1		2 Hardwood	Amethyst	Tin		Brass		2 Vials
Standard (DC25)	1	2		2 Hardwood	Fire Agate	Silver		2 Brass		3 Vials
Stable (DC35)	2	1		2 Hardwood	Garnet		n/a		2 Brass		3 Vials		Small Seed Balm
Complex (DC45)	2	2		2 Hardwood	Diamond		n/a		Adaptive	4 Vials

Followed by their components:

Code: Select all

Forging (11)		Materials			
Brass Gears (DC10)	Flask of Oil	Brass Ingot		
Tin Ingot (DC5)		2 Tin Chunk	4 Coal		
Brass Ingot (DC6)	Copper chunk	Zinc chunk	2 Coal	
Silver Ingot (DC 13)	2 Silver Chunk	4 Coal		

Herbalism (13)				
Flask of Oil (DC15)	2 Harnak Seeds	Glass Vial		
Small Seed Balm (DC10)	3 Strideleaf	6 Nuts	3 Sassone Leaves	6 Yarrow Leaves
				
Art Crafting (1)				
Glass Vial (DC3)	2 Glass	2 Coal		
Glass (DC1)		2 Sand	2 Coal		

Advanced Templates Specifics:

Code: Select all

Forging (30)
Adaptive Gears (DC32)	2 Brass Gears	Standard Catalyst	Dragon Oil	Emulsified Oil

Alchemist (33)				
Emulsified Oil (DC16)	
Dragon Oil (DC35)	Dragonhide	Dragon Blood	5 Flask of Oil	
Standard Catalyst(DC22)	Glass Bottle	Silver Ingot	Blood of a Magic Creature	

Art Crafting (19)
Glass Bottle (DC2)
Diamond (DC21)

I actually have an idea on where I can find all of the materials IG, mostly condensed in Skal. Dragon stuffs will have to be obtained from the mainland.

My new characters won't know where these are, however, so I believe this update may have an unintentional side-effect of encouraging meta-gaming, which kind of puts a frown on my face. (Funny that the crafting portion doesn't)

Edited to separate Advanced Template from the rest, so the list is not as daunting.

[p0w3rpl4y3r68]

(Funny that the crafting portion doesn't)

Most likely because the crafting portion to play an archer, at least to get low level templates, hasn't really changed that much. Just the materials you are now going after.

The only thing I don't get is why it's being touted as great for archers because it's not. Not much will change except for what it takes to put essences on their arrows. It benefits and is great for the caster classes. A dedicated archer has no spells to cast on arrows and will be stuck with low level essences as they were before.

The casters on the other hand will now have the spells and crafting ability to load up ammunition that will be able to rival, or better, any archer in ranged combat.

Yes archers can find a caster to do those things but that means the cost in gold also most likely does not change for them, or be even higher. The interesting part will be, since it is a never ending process, seeing how long it will take before casters get tired of endlessly enhancing numerous archers arrows and tell them to get tossed.

[Kenji]

The only thing I don't get is why it's being touted as great for archers because it's not.

Hey, I can tell you're upset because of the recent change. That's okay. All of us archer players are being affected to some degree. But sometimes we all just have to take a step back and see what's really happening here.

- First, we talked about the changes done to ammunition system, a lot of folks had to be 'informed' on what was done. That's alright. Took me some time to dig out the details, but they're there.

- After that, folks realized it may be too much work that takes too much time and enjoyment out of this, so they commented on that.

- Now you are talking about the balancing in between different classes and their performances, that is a whole different field that might belong to another thread.

What is important here is that a framework is being constructed by the devs, ranged combat doesn't just get fixed in one day, with one update, or one angry post. A great tool is created here, and with some fine-tuning, us archer players will ultimately be the benefactors.

Sure, things may look bad right now, I won't sugarcoat it, but us lashing at each other for our different perspectives and choices on how we spend our free time won't help with the issue at hand, I can tell you that.

What we need are posts that identify the problems:

... The problem is that for a small [subset] of characters (archer dependent ones) It is just far, far, far too intensive on crafting/people...

'There is no other style of character that requires this much micromanagement to be able to do their job - Is this fair/[balanced]?' Why do we do it to Archers?

This seems needlessly complicated... Maybe there's a way to streamline it?

The crafting system, and in particular crafting as it pertains to archery, seems like a bunch of research, study, and work... Not to be indelicate, but it seems a little tedious.

-..., templates shoehorn us into using bundles exclusively. This seems like a lost opportunity.
-Also, as many in this thread have pointed out, templates (mainly the nicer ones) require forging and/or alchemy/herbalism. While bundles above were streamlined, we just got put right back into profession point division...

... it would be nice to have a means of "emptying" a slot without using bundles on it.

"Be aware that templates will accept weapon-enhancing spells that previously could not be cast on bundles. The power of an unstable essence slot will depend on the Caster Level of the spell that fills it. It would be wise to experiment."
... this is just needlessly cryptic. Why do patch notes need this level of secrecy.

And then good suggestions to fix some of those identified problems, not all of them, but at least some are trying:

If a way can be found to ease off that intensity a bit - just remove a few stages, make the very best Templates Archer Usable Only but [permanent], something like that? Then I think it'd be fine.

Is there a genuinely good reason rangers and AA's can't just put a scaling dmg infinite ammo property on their weapons that can be toggled on/off at will, allowing arrow management to be saved for "special" ammo?

Unbreaking weaker ones would go a long way to making management better. Then you'd only have to worry about managing the "special" arrows for specific situations. You'd have to cap it at the simple ones I think, as standard can be stronger than stable in some cases.

So, any more problem-solving suggestions?

[p0w3rpl4y3r68]

The only thing I don't get is why it's being touted as great for archers because it's not.

Hey, I can tell you're upset because of the recent change. That's okay. All of us archer players are being affected to some degree. But sometimes we all just have to take a step back and see what's really happening here.

You must have me confused. I am not upset in the least and have even stated that the new system has its good points and bad and that it will just take getting used to.

I am sorry that you were triggered but what I said is fact and stands. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are amd will speak it.

[Kenji]

Hardly triggered, more like I'd prefer it if we all get to the task at hand:

So, any more problem-solving suggestions?

[Revelations]

1. Revert everything back to pre-update (most importantly: return enchantable / essencable bundles*)
2. Put this elaborate system in as an alternative (with streamlined crafting requirements)
3. Make simple and standard templates permanent


*Bundles that have been essenced / enchanted cannot be used in templates, and vice versa.

[Nitro]

Now that the simple and basic models don't degrade at all and the rest can be repaired that should remove a lot of the tedium, you just need to acquire one of the simple ones from any source and you can keep it forever for cheap temp essenced arrows. And with more expensive ones being repairable, you should be fine with getting one for expensive arrows and repairing it when it gets close to breaking.

[yellowcateyes]

There will be no reversions to the enchanted bundle model.

For those of you who worked with the new system and sent in detailed feedback and findings, the work was appreciated. (In particular, Kenji3108's detailed review.) Following the latest update, Basic and Simple Templates no longer degrade. Additionally, Temporary Essences no longer degrade when translated into an unstable template slot. This should provide a higher baseline of consistently-available ammunition to those players disinclined to engage in heavy crafting, so long as the rudimentary template is purchased or made.

Similarly, Stable Templates can now be repaired. This provides an option for those players who want to make a significant investment into a long-lasting source of quality ammunition, without worrying about template replacements.

Standard model and Complex model templates still degrade as normal, and cannot be repaired. This is the trade-off for the power of the ammunition they can provide to characters with sufficient resources and dedication.

[Astegard]

Looks great, eager to test it out.
Nice to see throwing weapons finally being considered (even though the posts here are only about arrows)

[Liareth]

Seems like an excellent change to me. I've played a ton of archers. Primary problems I've faced are:

- Mandatory ranger levels for bundles if you value your sanity.
- Bundles were too complicated to craft.
- Expensive to create powerful arrows; one permanent essence per 500 arrows, which you will go through in five pulls.

These changes address all of my archer quality of life concerns. Good work!

[p0w3rpl4y3r68]

Seems like an excellent change to me. I've played a ton of archers. Primary problems I've faced are:

- Mandatory ranger levels for bundles if you value your sanity.
- Bundles were too complicated to craft.
- Expensive to create powerful arrows; one permanent essence per 500 arrows, which you will go through in five pulls.

These changes address all of my archer quality of life concerns. Good work!

100% on point. Sounds like a very good compromise that will be most appreciated. Good job!

[Revelations]

Sounds great, excited to test it!

[ldm]

I am a Archer Ranger and the change looks good to me. Of course it will take more time to get the assembly template but it will last longer. In a week or two, i am sure there will be templates at the shops. And for the high rank it will be possible to make arrows with more types of essence than it was possible from before the change.

Nevertheless, the archers that spent feats that were given, lost those feats. It would be good if we could get an extra one to match the new design from the archers.

Thanks for for the work the Arelith team has done.

[Subbed]

I want to say thanks for listening to our concerns and making changes, I think this update will go a long way to making things easier on us now.

[Kenji]

Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!

With the new update, the materials required for the templates have not changed, but the supply and demand may have.

Material list, press on the up-arrow link next to the quote.

Adventure-minded players may want access to both Simple and Stable templates as soon as possible.
Here is a list for of who they may have to interact with and what materials they will need to gather, in the following craft order in order to obtain a...
Stable Template:
a. Art Crafting (1 or 7):
(Note: A lot of art crafters/alchemists have glass vials/bottles lying around, you may not have to bother with gathering these)

• 1x Garnet: Rough Garnet Gem
• 2x Glass: 2x Sand 2x Coal (This will produce 10x Glass)
• 5x Glass Vial: 2x Glass 2x Coal (This will produce 5x Glass Vials)

b. Herbalist (13):

• 2x Flask of Oil: 4x Harnak Seeds, 2x Glass Vial
• Small Seed Balm: 3x Strideleaf, 6x Nuts, 3x Sassone Leaves, 6x Yarrow Leaves

c. Forging (8):

• 4x Brass Ingots: 4x Copper Chunk, 4x Zinc Chunk, 8x Coals
• 2x Brass Gears: 4x Brass Ingots, 2x Flask of Oil

d. Forging/Art Crafting/Carpentry (33):
(Note: Since players are required to repair Stable template, it's suggested that players beeline on one of these crafting skills)
Stable (DC35): 2 Hardwood + Garnet + 2x Brass Gears + 3x Glass Vials + Small Seed Balm

[Kenji]

Material list, press on the up-arrow link next to the quote.

With this update, for us crafters, not only do we want the aforementioned templates, we are now incentivized to mass produce Standard templates, this is the crafting point distribution needed for standard one:
Forging 23 - Brass Gears, Brass Ingots, Silver Ingots
Herbalism 13 - Flask of Oil (for Brass Gears)
Art Crafting 1 - Glass Vials
Alchemy 22 - Permanent Essences

As for the advanced template, it's impossible for us to do it alone, best I can gather and speculate about "least amount of work divided" would be the following crafting point distribution:
Forging 33 - Brass Gears, Brass Ingots, Silver Ingots, repair Stable Template
Herbalism 13 - Flask of Oil (for Brass Gears)
Art Crafting 1 - Glass Vials
Alchemy 22 - Permanent Essences, Standard Catalyst, Emulsified Oil

Note: Assume a crafter took Gift of Crafting (70 points max), one can choose either put more points into either forging or alchemy, but seeing that we might need to repair our own Stable Templates, it's best if we take forging instead.

Crafters we need to help craft the advanced templates:
Art Crafting (19): Diamond
Alchemist (33): Dragon Oil
Forging/Art Crafting/Carpentry (43): Advanced Template

I have to say, the devs were able to handle a lot of the concerns I initially had with just a few tweaks of this already great template framework in just one swoop of an update. Fairly impressive.

[The Kriv]

As a level 20 full on archer path ranger/AA with zero points in carpentry at this moment, having to de-level in order to re-skill my crafting just to maintain something above 'decent' is a pretty grim thought. In addition to the AI that makes an entire group of mobs charge you on a single arrow-hit now, archery as a class path has gone from poor to very close to being gimped unless you now choose a very specific crafting path.

I fully acknowledge the system needed a little rework, and the idea of crafting high level ammo this way is pretty darn cool!
I also fully acknowledge that this crafting change is not designed to benefit archers, it is designed to benefit non-archers. Which there are tons more of than archers because lets face it, there really aren't many archers on the server, and definitely not enough to make a server-wide crafting change that benefitst them. Better to make the change to benefit the masses, instead of the few.

But truth be told, when I started playing in 2012 on Arelith, there were tons of archer characters of all makes and builds. I used to go out on group outings of 4-6 archers, maybe more, sometimes with no melee and no arcane support.

I can't speak for others playing dedicated archer char's but The only time this has happened in the past 2 years has been during a 'reunion' of sorts, when old players dug out their dusty archer characters when a few old players returned to the game over a holiday weekend.


Given the state of how you difficult playing a lone archer in Arelith compared to a lone fighter/melee/spellsword/caster -which caster classes that I see alone in the world are always surrounded by a menagerie of summons, you just do not see archers in Arelith anymore like you used to. And I don't think you will see an increase in them anytime soon, other than a few dedicated players who just really love archer types.

Playing an archer is really really tough. Honestly, it is not as fun as it used to be. Well, I can only speak for myself. But, the class is like crack for me, so I will endeavor to try and make the best of a not-optimal situation and hope for the best.

As an archer, when it comes to PVP, I automatically assume I will lose. When out scouting or doing the ranger thing, I never go to areas that have encounters designed for character-levels of my characters, I always stick to the areas that are 4-8 levels below where my character should be 'hunting' because unless I'm with a party, it is death for my archers. One archer character I don't even adventure anymore with. I just drag him out for occasional faction RP. That character's been deleveled from 25 to 2, back to 27, then deleveled again to 16 and finally back to 29. I'm not deleveling him again. Forget it.

So, that's my rant on the "state of archery in Arelith" which doesn't really have anything to do with the specific topic of this ammo-creation crafting change, but this crafting-ammo change will contribute to you seeing even fewer archer-characters in the server.

...but as I recall someone, I think peppermint? (don't recall, sorry Pep, if it wasn't you) who wrote in a discussion thread over past changes to Ranger/Archer class, something like "Playing a ranger is like clawing your eyes out." Which is a discussion for another thread.

---

How I see this update:

Let's say I was a melee build who fought with a short-sword (Occupies two inventory squares) and even though I could magically create a bundle of five short-swords once per rest, but that my short-sword would disappeared after 100 hits. POOF! gone. I would constantly be needing to keep a good number these swords and manage them in my inventory.

And once I got to level 9, I could at least make a standard Damask shortsword with +3 hit/dam... Now +3 damage i sn't anything to sneeze at. It's pretty good. I could do okay with that. But if I wanted to be really effective, and be able to engage in real difficult content, I am going to need to get that +3 damage higher... like to +1d6+3+1d6, and maybe a +2d6vsUndead.

It would be great to invest in this Damask Shortsword +1d6+3+1d6 but after 100 hits, that shortsword goes away. BUT, likily, I have invested heavily into one specific crafting path! And I can make MORE +1d6+3+1d6 Damask Shortswords using a DC45 or grater TEMPLATE! ALRIGHT! Well.. I'll need to make sure manage that TEMPLATE too so it stays in repair and doesn't go POOF! but that's just one small thing extra to manage.

Oh, dam.. I just screwed up. I was using my cheap, unessenced, mediocre short-swords while I was killing goblins while travelingng through low level areas, and I got to the end of my 100 hits on that mediocre short-sword, and I didn't manually reload another mundane, short-sword to continue killing the goblins, and I accidentally auto-equipped my +1d6+3+1d6+2d6vsUNdead, and I wasted 45 of my 100 swings of that really great short-sword,

BUT that's okay, because I am a master craftsman with 45 invested crafting skill to make a new template to make more of these +1d6+3+1d6+2d6vsUndead shortswords that only last 100 hits.

How fun is this kind of melee character?

-this is overly dramatized, but kinda how life is for an archer.

[Kenji]

Hello The Kriv, a very recent update was rolled out, have a look:

Assembly Templates
-------------------------------
- Basic and Simple models do not degrade.
- Temporary essences do not degrade in power when translated to Unstable Essence slots.
- Stable models can be maintained with repair kits.

Also, you don't need carpentry for the new templates, at all! These are what you need in order to obtain a Simple Template, which is now permanent.

Forging 8, Herbalism 13, and Art crafting 1
Forging, Art Crafting, or Carpentry 13 to put everything together. (They all can craft templates)

I have made a detail post regarding the crafting aspect of templates here

Press on the arrow near the quote

[ReverentBlade]

Good grief, my eyes glaze over just trying to follow this topic. My lame casual self couldn't even begin to try and play an archer if this is what they need to deal with.

[Kenji]

A lot has happened over the past four days, some of you are late to the party, that's alright. Here, let me summarize how ammo management works now as of 6/26/2018:

1. Ranged characters (archer path or not) need to find a way to obtain bundles.
2. Obtain a Simple or Stable Template, because the former doesn't degrade and the latter can be repaired
3. Apply permanent essences on the templates
4. Use bundles on templates.
5. Voila, you get your ammo with nice stuffs on it.

Essentially, we go through slightly more hassle than melee, but the upkeep portion of it has been streamlined to similar to melee builds. We no longer need to craft a ton of templates and permanent essences for as long as we keep our templates in tip-top shape.

[R0GUE]

Good grief, my eyes glaze over just trying to follow this topic. My lame casual self couldn't even begin to try and play an archer if this is what they need to deal with.

So I realize they came to a compromise, which hooray, I'm all for that, and what we ended up with is better than the original plan, but this has been my experience so far. Keep in mind, I don't have just a whole lot of playing time, with a full time job and all.

Tracked down a bunch of components that I would need to make a bundle or two and a simple template.

Made the bundles and template.

Find out that if I'd waited just a few hours my template would have been permanent.

Go track down yet more components, plus decided to try and get components for a standard template as well.

With carpentry skill of 20, sit down to make a new permanent simple template and a standard template.

My next 4 crafting rolls: 1, 1, 3, 1

Lose all my components.

Throw my hands in the air and rage quit.

I really don't have the patience for these complex crafting systems. It's easier for me to build a whole new crossbow than it is to make a single decent stack of bolts.

[The Kriv]

Kenji, thanks for the work in laying it all out. props to you for putting the time in to make the map. And thank your in-laws too for the time spent away from them.


Overall I think the system is pretty darn cool. Yeah, it kinda makes life a little more of a hassle, management wise for my archers, it's definitely not hard to make medium-grade ammunition. It will take a serious investment to get top tier best in slot arrows, and a significant cost in gold and time. Which isn't unlike the previous system of crafting essences. I guess the difference is that applying the essences to ammunition bundles were as simple as being used on melee weapons, which gave a good incentive for craftspeople to simply make essences them since they were not serving a niche market. they were serving a mass-market, that a niche-market could take advantage of.

The difficulty I see with this system is that it is now a Niche market. To apply those essences you NEED additional equipment. Equipment that must be crafted. And the high-end, best in slot equipment required takes HEAVY investment in a crafting skill DC45! -if you can't make it yourself, you need to purchase it from someone who can. For HIGH End-Game worthy Best-In-Slot ammunition, you have to do more than acquire a weapon and an essence. Now you NEED the HIGH-END equipment to apply those essences TO your ammunition. Those who play dedicated archer characters are few in comparison to those who just keep a few stacks of heavy, high power ammo around for those emergency situations.

Now an entirely new supply chain for these crafting templates must be introduced into the crafting economy to serve the needs of one of the smallest most niche character builds that are entirely 100% dependent on consumables. Yes, SOME characters will want to have this high-end templates to make awesome arrows, but most won't. This market will be entirely reliant on return-business of dedicated archers to make it a viable business worth dedicating time and energy and shop-space for.


The system is very cool, however, and please don't take this criticism as negative on the system. I think it was conceived in a very wise and thoughtful way, and I am not being sarcastic in any way, this is God's honest truth that this system of crafting arrows is very very cool!



But, I think it could be extended to melee weapons classes. I think we should develop a similar method, based on the "500 hits." like the 99x5 bundle of arrows.

It would simplify things tremendously. First, Masterly Damask weapons could go away. We could stop at Damask Weapons. +3 hit, +3 damage on all/any melee weapon is all that would be required. THEN... for every melee class, an automatic +3 damage is applied on equip. Just like Archers! In fact.. we could scale it... so that low level melee classes start with +1, then get +2, then get +3 damage ON EQUIP. -then.. once you have that Damask +3 hit +3 Damage weapon equipped, the melee class's +3 Auto Damage Bonus ON EQUIP effectively creates the equivalent of that Masterly Damask +3/+6Damage weapon!

THEN! Templates created! these templates "sharpen" The blade. And you could apply an essence ONLY to a fully Sharpened (or whatever equivalent for Bludgeoning/Piercing) - and that Essence could be really AMAZING essence! You could stack spells on it, and some could be 1d4 and 1d6 and flat +6 or whatever... and you get to keep that SHARPENED blade with that ESSENCE on it for those 500 hits! Then it turns back into that mundane Damask +3 / +3 damage weapon... BUT you can still use it as a regular non-essenced weapon until you can "sharpen" it back up!


We could have a crafting "template" available of various grades. Simple, unstable, stable, epic, etc.. and then Melee classes could keep two or three or four fully SHARPENED weapons (i.e., the weapons would have those stacked essences and such on them) ready to go, so that at the end of the 500 hits, the character can just swap to a new, freshly sharpened (i.e. essence stacked) weapon! maybe long fights would need the character to keep THREE or FOUR "sharpened" weapons so that they could get through the fight!

And then. when the melee character rests! they whip out their template, and their repair kit, and they RE-SHARPEN right there in the middle of the adventure! no need go back to town! and oh.. yeah, you are going to need specific crafting skills to keep those templates in repair as well!

BUT! this system, like the arrow crafting system, would be really cool too! it would be much more like real weapons! weapons that lose their sharpness! and need to be re-sharpened!

Now everyone wouldn't need to have this best in slot super sharpened blade, in fact, most folk could get by with a standard +3 damask weapon. Maintaining and managing the "sharpeness" (i.e. adding all those extra cool damage bonus essences) would greatly increase the crafting economy! as melee class characters would constantly need to seek out the components to keep their weapons in some sort of enhanced damage capacity above the simple +3 Damask.

This ammo crafting system could be a perfect template for making melee weapons become "consumable" goods! Which anyone who lives in the US knows... a consumable economy is a good economy!

[TimeAdept]

Capitalism is a terror, and there is no ethical consumption of consumables under capitalism.

Please do not make melee weapons "consumable". If anything, ranged options should be less "consumable".