ammunition changes.

[Revelations]

From an "enjoyable gaming experience" point of view, which we should really strive for, no one should have to wait for the playerbase to figure out how to supply something basic and inane as ammunition.

The whole system seems nicely thought out, but the cross-discipline crafting requirements and components required, it's just too much and too complex.

There has to be a simple and affordable way for archer-type characters to get decent arrows, period.

[Cortex]

From an "enjoyable gaming experience" point of view, which we should really strive for, no one should have to wait for the playerbase to figure out how to supply something basic and inane as ammunition.

The whole system seems nicely thought out, but the cross-discipline crafting requirements and components required, it's just too much and too complex.

There has to be a simple and affordable way for archer-type characters to get decent arrows, period.

Rangers can produce them for free.

[Revelations]

Rangers can produce them for free.

- Bundle properties no longer transfer to created ammunition. That is to say, enchanting a bundle and adding essences / spells to a bundle will not transfer those benefits to produced items. Similarly, it is no longer possible to apply essences directly on ammunition. This system has been replaced with assembly templates (see below).

I don't know what you're trying to imply. That mundane damask arrows are a decent choice?

[Opustus]

Did you read Kenji's first or second post on the first page of the thread? The templates are permanent and can be crafted by Forging, Carpentry, OR Art crafting; all three qualify as trades for producing the relevant templates self-sufficiently. Revelations, is your gripe with that the crafting of the templates requires components that need work outside of a single trade? It does not sound too bad, considering that you will have the templates for good, then.

[Subbed]

Templates are not permanent. I don't know how much of this is FOIG, but they last about 4 bundles worth and as you go through to the higher qualities, they last up to 6 or so. You will have to replace templates. And the temporary essences/spells only last 5 charges, which is roughly 500 arrows.

A template fuels about 2000-3000 arrows.

For most heavy archer characters, a template will last you about 2 dungeon crawls or a number of short outings.

[Revelations]

My general gripe is that I just don't see how after years of asking for QoL updates for archers, we get a way more complex, heavily crafting-dependent money-sink system that actively gimps arrow management.




I suppose my personal frustration and reaction to this comes from how several design decisions of this update hit my current character pretty hard, but I guess that happens.

[Subbed]

The stable template makes things pretty simple for a lot of good arrows, but it does add some complexity up front. I kind of like the changes, just hoping I'll be able to craft my own templates after working with others to get the other materials.

[Rwby]

As someone whose never played an archer before because of not wanting to get involved in arrow management, this update hasn't changed my feelings. It might be better for some, it might be worse for others, but as an outsider it certainly doesn't seem straightforward.

I really do feel some other peoples are very relevent.
I get Warlock. I go Dungoning. I kill stuff.
I get mage. I go Dungoning. Eventually I need spell components, but not for everything, so their use can be managed, though they are annoying.
I get Cleric. I go Dungeoning. I kill stuff. Eventually I pray for a bit. Then continue.
I get Weapon Master. I take Forging. I make my own sword, once. I go Dungeoning. I kill stuff.

I get Archer. I have to pay attention to several different things, liase likely with different players, and constantly maintain a resource without which my damage goes from lots, to a flat zero. A naked mage with an empty inventory can continue to put out damage indefinately, with the Greater Spell Focus update. Archers remain the only path that can specifically become incapable of using their primary damage output.

It doesn't seem... Fair? Maybe I'm just lazy, but I can't see the advantage in quality of life here, over other characters, and I've certainly seen no evidence that being an archer is significantly more powerful than other classes to make up for the micromanagement.

[Opustus]

Oh damn. I think Rwby makes a good point. I'm curious if the design team discussed making the templates permanent and what led them to this decision? Permanent templates would've been a leap to making the archers' lives easier; the permanent essence would have functioned similarly to how it does with non-ammunition weapons (being a permanent essence applicable from the stable template), and the temporary essences wearing out over time and use, just like they should (being a temporary essence or weapon buff applicable from the unstable template). Why just take the small step, then?

[Subbed]

I think the reasoning is that the DC 45 template is quite powerful. That being said, a system where your template is permanent but you have to renew the permanent essences every 20-30 and renew temps every 5 still might have been easier to deal with. It would accomplish the same thing as far as having to buy essences but let archers settle with whatever template level they managed to craft.

As it stands, archers will have to do template management to a pretty high level if they want to be effective. Keeping a complex template for dangerous situations and keeping a stable for run of the mill killing mobs. If you want to retain a spell like clang or extra damage to undead, you may want multiple templates to have over 500 arrows readily available. Or youll want to expend templates to have arrows sitting in inventory while you still have the caster around.

Technically the system is better than what we had before, does lower the value of temporary essences though.

[JediMindTrix]

RWBY nailed it.

[Opustus]

last post, stuff

Wait, what? Does the complex template let you stack 2 permanent essences + 2 temporary essences or weapon buffs? That's crazy.

What about making the weaker templates non-breaking for a steady flow of okay arrows and better templates breaking for an unsteady flow of absolutely bonkers arrows?

[Subbed]

Unbreaking weaker ones would go a long way to making management better. Then you'd only have to worry about managing the "special" arrows for specific situations. You'd have to cap it at the simple ones I think, as standard can be stronger than stable in some cases.

[Kenji]

You all make reasonable feedbacks and ones that I resonate with, I won't be defending the dev team's decision nor will I be adding anything further. But I will try and clarify on what archers had to go through both in the past and present:

So, how does one go about making a decent stack of arrows now?

Pre-update:

1. Get a bundle via Crafting or Archer path (no extra feats for pre-update Archers)
2. If crafting, RIP, you'll need three different crafting skills: Forging for ingots, Art for Arrowtips, Carpentry for Arrowshafts, Forging or Carpentry to put it all together
3. If archer, use the innate ability and get a bundle relative to your ranger levels per rest/level-up.
4. Apply a permanent essence or enchant 1d4 damage on the bundle
5. Apply a temporary essence or Paladin's Deafening Clang on the bundle
6. Apply Paladin's Bless Weapon on the bundle
7. Proceed to split the bundle
8. Repeat when bundle is depleted by use

Note: Iron and Steel Bundles can be enchanted with perma-1d4, it's 5% chance for damask bundles, better off using alchemy for damask. Alchemy isn't completely necessary in this case, but alchemy's perma-4d1 is strictly better.

Post-update:

1. Get a bundle via Crafting or Archer path
2. If crafting, you'll need two to three different crafting skills: Art for Arrowtips, Carpentry for Arrowshafts, Forging or Carpentry to put it all together
3. If archer, use the innate ability and get a bundle relative to your ranger levels per rest/level-up.
4. Acquire an assembly template (It can't be bought as of 6/24/2018, so we're doomed to crafting it)
5. I think it requires at least three different crafting skills for semi-decent ones: Art, Forging, and Herbalism (I'll put up the entire list eventually, I'm still figuring it out, ironically)
6. Apply one or two permanent essences on the template
7. Apply temporary essence(s) and/or any Arcane/Divine weapon magics
8. Use the Bundle's targeting special ability on the template
9. Repeat 1-3 when bundle is depleted by use
10. Repeat 7-8 when unstable slots are depleted by use
11. Repeat 4-8 when template is depleted by use

Note: All templates can't be enchanted via basin, so alchemy is essential.

Damage output potential has been increased for ammunition, but with it, the means of getting there is increased, as well.

I'll update the list as I figure things out.

You'd have to cap it at the simple ones I think, as standard can be stronger than stable in some cases.

I was going to bring that up after I calculate the crafting points required for everything, but now that you have, two unstable slots mean paladin's undeafening clang can easily outshine a potent permanent essence for the two stable slots.

[Opustus]

So, even the bundles are eventually depleted over uses? Oh my god, what an absolute arse they are to make.

[Subbed]

Yeah, to add some fidelity.

A bundle makes a club with [5] charges. When used it generates [99] arrows and then loses a charge.
A low powered template has [20] charges total. Permanent essences stay all 20. Temporaries stay for 5 charges.

To make arrows using template. I use my bundle with [5] charges on the template.
The template now has [19] charges and [4] temporary charges left, and the bundle of arrows has [4] charges. I now have [99] arrows with the template bonuses.

Once the template reaches [0] temporary, I will need to add new temporary spells or essences. I cannot change the temporary bonuses until the template expends all temporary slots from [5] to [0]

[Opustus]

Thanks Subbed and Kenji for the good explanations. It all seems very craftsome and clicky.

[Kenji]

Unbreaking weaker ones would go a long way to making management better. Then you'd only have to worry about managing the "special" arrows for specific situations. You'd have to cap it at the simple ones I think, as standard can be stronger than stable in some cases.

At first, I was going to say that if basic and simple templates are unbreakable, then that means the permanent essence on them will be literally permanent, every archer will have nice basic enchanted arrows.

Then I realized those melee weapons with permanent essence, they are essentially permanently enchanted, so why can't we archers have that?

Maybe instead of having the NPCs sell the basic and simple templates, simply have them only crafted by players, but unbreakable. Or even enable the basic and simple templates to be repaired by capable hands, like how weapons and armors have charges to show their deterioration. We already have to deal with arrow management, this change would be really nice for the archer players.

[Yma23]

You all make reasonable feedbacks and ones that I resonate with, I won't be defending the dev team's decision nor will I be adding anything further. But I will try and clarify on what archers had to go through both in the past and present:

So, how does one go about making a decent stack of arrows now?

Pre-update:

1. Get a bundle via Crafting or Archer path (no extra feats for pre-update Archers)
2. If crafting, RIP, you'll need three different crafting skills: Forging for ingots, Art for Arrowtips, Carpentry for Arrowshafts, Forging or Carpentry to put it all together
3. If archer, use the innate ability and get a bundle relative to your ranger levels per rest/level-up.
4. Apply a permanent essence or enchant 1d4 damage on the bundle
5. Apply a temporary essence or Paladin's Deafening Clang on the bundle
6. Apply Paladin's Bless Weapon on the bundle
7. Proceed to split the bundle
8. Repeat when bundle is depleted by use

Note: Iron and Steel Bundles can be enchanted with perma-1d4, it's 5% chance for damask bundles, better off using alchemy for damask. Alchemy isn't completely necessary in this case, but alchemy's perma-4d1 is strictly better.

Post-update:

1. Get a bundle via Crafting or Archer path
2. If crafting, you'll need two to three different crafting skills: Art for Arrowtips, Carpentry for Arrowshafts, Forging or Carpentry to put it all together
3. If archer, use the innate ability and get a bundle relative to your ranger levels per rest/level-up.
4. Acquire an assembly template (It can't be bought as of 6/24/2018, so we're doomed to crafting it)
5. I think it requires at least three different crafting skills for semi-decent ones: Art, Forging, and Herbalism (I'll put up the entire list eventually, I'm still figuring it out, ironically)
6. Apply one or two permanent essences on the template
7. Apply temporary essence(s) and/or any Arcane/Divine weapon magics
8. Use the Bundle's targeting special ability on the template
9. Repeat 1-3 when bundle is depleted by use
10. Repeat 7-8 when unstable slots are depleted by use
11. Repeat 4-8 when template is depleted by use

Note: All templates can't be enchanted via basin, so alchemy is essential.

Damage output potential has been increased for ammunition, but with it, the means of getting there is increased, as well.

I'll update the list as I figure things out.

A longer list of 'things to do' isn't an entirely bad thing, especialy if the thing you get is a little more powerful. But the bigger issue, for archers, is that you have to keep on doing those Things constantly.

Prior to this update people complained that archers were a pain because, to get good arrows, you have to go through a lot of hoops.

Whilst this may improve archers to an extent, and whilst it certainly has some good points, it makes the 'fiddly' aspect of it much, much worse. And much more dependent on other pcs.

Whlst RWBY's point is a little extreme (normal arrows can be bought in shops I think, so you'll probably never be at 0 damage without pc help, but certainly can be reduced to the point where they're basicaly forced to use the equivilent of bronze weaponry) it really does stand.

I love rp, I love interacting with people, but as a player I don't like the idea that to let out any reasonable amount of damage output on a regular basis, I absolutly -NEED- to have access to a certain amount of people. And not need them just once, but need them over, and over, and over again.

It especialy flies in the aspect of the archer/ranger classes being anything like loners. Now it's not just 'a bit mechanicaly sub par' to be a loner (which is fine, we should encourage people to interact) It is 'Ok, If you're a loner your character is likely going to be ridiculously underpowered compared to anything else.'


EDIT: To clarify, I'm probably sounding really negative? I don't know that I should be. I mean I actually like the extra crafting options. I love crafting and I like the idea of a new thing to make, new sources of income ect.

About 80% of this update is very cool and I do actually like it. The problem is that for a small subsect of characters (archer dependent ones) It is just far, far, far too intensive on crafting/people.

If a way can be found to ease off that intensity a bit - just remove a few stages, make the very best Templates Archer Usable Only but perminent, something like that? Then I think it'd be fine.

[Rwby]

It's certainly true you can easily snag bad arrows. But those arrows run out. Poor arrow management disarms your character, which is something no other class in the game really experiences.

[Okay, I guess if you're playing a melee build, and you don't take any points at all in forging, and you use your weapon till it breaks, and don't have another one on you...]

My point was less, 'Gosh you have to do work to have good stuff!'
And more, 'There is no other style of character that requires this much micromanagement to be able to do their job - Is this fair/balenced?'

Running out of arrows is 'Realistic', I guess. But so would insisting all spells use spell components. We don't do that, because everyone accepts no-one would ever play a mage again. Why do we do it to Archers?

[p0w3rpl4y3r68]

As an archer player I will put in my 2gp worth. I hated this new system and even the thought of it when it rolled out. I came up with every reason why this was a terrible idea and never should have been implemented. I grumbled and re-rolled. After playing around with it I am now of the opinion that it has its good and bad points but overall its not that bad and will just take getting used to. One thing though, and here I will play the devils advocate, the notion that this update encourages rp is false. It's great for 'old hands' who know Arelith inside out and have many friends or those with all the time in the world to play. For the new player and those who only play casually this update is horrendous and will only further discourage playing an archer since they simply will not have the knowledge or time to jump through so many hoops just to get a 1d4 enchantment on an arrow.

My overall opinion? It's a decent update that will be appreciated by the segment of players who have and can take the time to learn it. For the new, casual, and even the more experienced players who don't want to re-roll the option to enchant at basins or wherever should be re-implemented. Arelith has a dedicated player base that has been here for years and will remain but ultimately it will live or die by the continued influx of new and casual players. Things should be kept as simple as possible so those players stay long enough to find out what makes Arelith truly exceptional.

[Tourmaline]

All I can add is..

Being a typical adult I have a full time job that can be very complicated and mentally exhausting.

I come here for a creative outlet. I don't need the game to be easy but being a typical adult working 40+ hours a week I don't want it to be needlessly complicated either.

This seems needlessly complicated. Extremely so. I understand why, say, the changes to the enchanting system were put in place, as it's an end-game endeavor and should have some effort and mystery to it, but looking at the list of what ammo crafting entails just makes my eyes glaze over.

Maybe there's a way to streamline it?

[TimeAdept]

Is there a genuinely good reason rangers and AA's can't just put a scaling dmg infinite ammo property on their weapons that can be toggled on/off at will, allowing arrow management to be saved for "special" ammo?

[Invader_Nym]

All I can add is..

Being a typical adult I have a full time job that can be very complicated and mentally exhausting.

I come here for a creative outlet. I don't need the game to be easy but being a typical adult working 40+ hours a week I don't want it to be needlessly complicated either.

This seems needlessly complicated. Extremely so. I understand why, say, the changes to the enchanting system were put in place, as it's an end-game endeavor and should have some effort and mystery to it, but looking at the list of what ammo crafting entails just makes my eyes glaze over.

Maybe there's a way to streamline it?

This I think is the most important point that can be made. I'm very busy outside of gaming and I want my gaming to be a bit of a relief from all that. The crafting system, and in particular crafting as it pertains to archery, seems like a bunch of research, study, and work.

It was suuuuper streamlined before. 1d8 temp essence, maybe a +1 permanent essence from a chest, and I'm off to the races. If I need another boost I'll put a temp essence on a stack of 99.

That's all super intuitive, super easy, and can be done more or less via 1-stop shopping.

Now I've got to track down like 4 different PC crafters for all these templates, which will eventually deplete such that I'll have to track them all down again. Not to be indelicate, but it seems a little tedious.

[Bryce Silver-Wind]

After reviewing the templates and the complications to this, I don't actually see myself making a ranger like ever. Too much work for too little gain, sorry but it didn't make anything better, it made it a lot worse.