ammunition changes.

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Invader_Nym
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ammunition changes.

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:51 pm

My level 26 archer has no carpentry, because he didn't need it, and now can't make decent arrows. I'm a curious about the decision to replace the totally convenient process of buying an essence in the shop, with a lengthy and time-consuming crafting process. This doesn't seem advantageous to me. I actually think any strategy that forces players into the crafting menu to rely on consumables is ill-conceived.

My level 25 archer is also gimped now because I had to manually take all the archery feats, which are now afforded by the archer path.

Should I roll him?

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by JediMindTrix » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:56 pm

Personally I like -2 ECL so... my vote is yes. Maybe this is a case a DM would be willing to reset your crafting points for too?

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Baron Saturday
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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:28 pm

I believe the goal was to make a system that could work for all ammo types, not just arrows. While the new system makes life slightly harder for existing archer-path rangers, it makes it immessurably easier for all other ranged characters.

If you want to keep your character, you can always use the -losexp command to reset your trade skills. This would also, if you deleveled far enough, get you those archer feats for free.
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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Durvayas » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:29 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:28 pm
I believe the goal was to make a system that could work for all ammo types, not just arrows. While the new system makes life slightly harder for existing archer-path rangers, it makes it immessurably easier for all other ranged characters.

If you want to keep your character, you can always use the -losexp command to reset your trade skills. This would also, if you deleveled far enough, get you those archer feats for free.
If he needs to delevel so much just to undo the damage the new change has wrought just so that he can rebuild into what, in all likelyhood, will still be a sub-par archery experience, he may as well start over entirely with a new PC.
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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:04 pm

Invader_Nym wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:51 pm
the decision to replace the totally convenient process of buying an essence in the shop, with a lengthy and time-consuming crafting process
Keep in mind that essences themselves are lengthy and time-consuming crafting processes. It's just taken for granted that there are crafters regularly making them and supplying shops with them. Nothing has changed insofar as what a character strictly needs to create ammunition; while Carpenters are less dependent on Forging ingots now to make bundles, they're no better suited to actually enchanting those bundles than Smiths or Artists.

Assembly Templates are fully trade-able, and can be sold in stores so long as there is someone in the business of making them. Some models are almost trivial to craft.

When it comes to enchanting arrows en masse, the amount of resources and crafting points needed to do it has actually gone down. So while it is understandable that you might want to roll a character because of not being able to take advantage of free feats, it'd be a more questionable choice if you were doing it on the basis of not being able to enchant arrows.
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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Invader_Nym » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:08 am

I would buy 1d8 essences and slap the occasional +1 perm essence found in a chest on them and bingo bango, I'd be off to the races.

I really like DDO's approach to crafting, in which you can engage in crafting to get a little edge if you want to, but you could opt out of it without being at a drastic disadvantage too. I don't claim to speak for everyone, but I know there's a subset of players who are in it mostly for the roleplay and adventure, and not so much for the Sim-Life aspect, with jobs and professions and crafting and stuff.

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Rockstar1984 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:12 pm

Invader_Nym wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:08 am
I don't claim to speak for everyone, but I know there's a subset of players who are in it mostly for the roleplay and adventure, and not so much for the Sim-Life aspect, with jobs and professions and crafting and stuff.
Buuut there are also a lot of players that see jobs/professions/crafting as an essential aspect to roleplay. Some people certainly are of the mindset that crafting takes time away from RP, but there are many that use crafting as a key part of their RP. In fact I'd argue that if a character lacks a skill that they desperately need it means they'll have to seek someone out to help them thus encouraging rp?

I do agree though that the free feats for characters that already took said feats is quite annoying and means that any archer that didn't take those feats will be a little less powerful. Do I think you should roll him though? Nah. I don't think an archer made before the change will be weak, they'll be just as strong as they were before. Although I certainly think a free releveling would be nice as a lot of characters are in the same boat.

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by JediMindTrix » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:46 pm

He has a valid point in that he didn't need carpentry before, now he does, but he's already really high level so it's too late? And telling him to -losexp basically translates to: "Get comfortable with a bugbear, remake"

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Yma23
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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Yma23 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:54 pm

I must admit it does seem a bit of a wierd change, becaue it makes archers ridiculously reliant on other people.

I've got a friend who was playing a fairly self reliant archer, she made her own demask arrows. To make generally good arrows she needed say 22 in alchemy (very easy to get).

Now it seems she needs a 45 in Forging/Art Crafting, + alchemy + herbology + mage friends.

Don't get me wrong, I'm tottaly in favour of the whole 'no man is an island' and encouraging rp. And if the templates were perminent, then that'd be fine.

But look, as a Barbarian my character an amble about most places. Having a mage around helps, but he has a nice sword always, and can drop a couple of essences on at any time for ease. Temp essences are easy to get, and a perminent essence is, well, perminent.

Archers are constnatly using up ammo. A template may last them a few adventures, but they will be entirely depedent in a long term manner on finding people with ridiculous amounts of crafting skill sets, and/or being willing tp splurge out potentialy massive amounts of coin.

If Archers were massively overplayed and overpowered, I'd sorta get it. But they arn't. This seems to really depend on archers being really friendly with lots and lots and lots of people to be able to do a damage that a fighter can with very little in the way aid. Or rather- yes a fighter needs a smith, a mage, and maybe an alchemist to get their weapon at top performance. But with the possible exception of the mage, they don't need the other two again at all. Wheres as the archer now constatnly needs to be in contact with people to keep their weapons up to scratch, and more people than they did before, which means more frustration.

Especialy wierd given teh steyrotype of the' lone ranger' or 'lone archer.' Now you need apparently to be a highly sociaable and/or rich archer to keep up to scratch.

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Kenji » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:00 pm

The update is a boon to a lot of players who don't wish to be stuck with just bows as the dominant launcher (it probably still is, but the power gap is closer now with the update). Some of us minority of a ranger (archer path) players may be discouraged, but all in all, the changes just mean new archers get two or three, at most, feats. Nothing has inherently changed, we have it easier compared to the spellswords!

I have three archer characters that need to be rerolled because of this update (1 epic, 1 lvl16, the other around 9), but I find the update much needed for IG build diversity as well as more crafting options. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Onto the topic at hand, I don't think one needs to always craft the "best" template in order to always use the best arrows (save those for special occasions, use the cheap ones for normal hunts). Let's have a look at the following list of templates:

(Keep in mind that Forging, Art Crafting, and Carpentry all qualify)

Code: Select all

Templates	Stable	Unstable
Basic (DC5)	0	1
Simple (DC15)	1	1
Standard (DC25)	1	2
Stable (DC35)	2	1
Complex (DC45)	2	2
Note: Stable slots are for permanent essences only
Unstable slots are where the fun begins, from temporary essences to ALL the arcane/divine magics that buff weapons to fill the slot!

Before the update, our 'bundle module' is the equivalent of how a Simple template works, DC15 isn't entirely too hard to reach, and the material list is fairly reasonable. (Exception being Paladin's Bless Weapon, it adds on top of a perma/tempo essence slot in the past)

My speculation is that Standard (DC25) with 1 stable and 2 unstable slots will most likely be the most efficient one for mass production. The two unstable slots to use for paladin's bless weapons and defeaning clang, and now all forms of weapon buff spells can be used on it, this means template crafters are encouraged to not only seek out powerful paladins, but alchemists and wizards, as well!

The question remains, our old bundle system doesn't retain the enhancement from Paladin's Deafening Clang. The patch notes don't indicate whether it is now applicable or not, but seeing that if "(Greater) Magic Weapon" can be applied as one of the unstable slot, then it is most likely the enhancement bonus retains compared to the old system.

Folks may not see it now, but this update is a stroke of genius on the dev's part.

Edit: Fixed some typos

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by JediMindTrix » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:12 pm

All I know is, if I'd been playing archers before this update at all, which has been generally considered to be a painfully tedious class/combat style, then suddenly I'm even less able to get ammunition, I'd be upset too. These players were suffering before the update, and I can see how it would be even more upsetting to not be able to adapt characters that already took a tremendous amount of patience.

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by yellowcateyes » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:25 pm

Kenji3108 is on point about the nature of the templates.
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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Yma23 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:31 pm

From what I'm seeing the issue can be summed up by this:

For most characters who just dip into ranged attacks, this is a nice boon that makes switching to powerful ranged weapons more appealing.

If you're playing a character who's prime/only form of attack is archery, then this is a change that is a real pain in the behind.

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Kenji » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:36 pm

TL;DR version of differences in b/w pre-update and post-update for archers and crafters:
  • New Archers get 2-3 extra feats more than the Old Archers (if old ones took the feats manually, which they mostly likely have)
  • Old Bundle system = New Simple Assembly Template mechanically (13 crafting points required in Forging, Art Crafting, or Carpentry)
  • New Template system reduces temporary essence damage applied on unstable slots
  • Old Bundle system allowed Bless Weapons as a free slot compared to new templates
  • Templates crafted allow for more uses, old bundles system wastes more perma/tempo essences on the long run. New system is far more sustainable, with a little bit of hassle.
  • All Ranged builds now have options to further boost their ammunition than the old system has allowed.
JediMindTrix wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:12 pm
All I know is, if I'd been playing archers before this update at all, which has been generally considered to be a painfully tedious class/combat style, then suddenly I'm even less able to get ammunition, I'd be upset too. These players were suffering before the update, and I can see how it would be even more upsetting to not be able to adapt characters that already took a tremendous amount of patience.
Yea, it is painful, very true. But the update is necessary, one of the coders on Discord even said the update was accidentally released earlier than intended, but I am glad it is pushed out now, or it'll be even harder for us in later date. I don't speak for all of the archer players, but might as well pull the scab off a wound at this point and apply aid.
Yma23 wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:31 pm
From what I'm seeing the issue can be summed up by this:

For most characters who just dip into ranged attacks, this is a nice boon that makes switching to powerful ranged weapons more appealing.

If you're playing a character who's prime/only form of attack is archery, then this is a change that is a real pain in the behind.
It's not a real issue, aside from having to reroll, which is understandable. But past that, the archers now have more sustainable means of getting values out of their bundles. All it takes is 13 crafting points and some material gathering to get back to where it was before, and this time, with even more options to buff your arrows! Edit: I guess it is more hassle than before.

The OP does have a point about this makes archer path actually more "crafting" oriented, but not by that much. It's not like we are all of a sudden required to dedicate into full-time crafting builds in order to obtain best arrows.

Edit: Fixed the TL;DR part about Old Bundle = Simple Template
Last edited by Kenji on Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by yellowcateyes » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:47 pm

Templates have a low barrier of entry. The only ones which have high DCs and significant multi-craft dependencies are the top-end ones - that is to say, the templates that allow for arrows that are beyond the power level of what was possible previously, or that allow for the reliable production of arrows that were previously 5% gambles.

Basic models can be produced by a newbie who has only 1 rank in each craft skill, and using only resources available in newbie areas. Simple and standard models are only a few steps beyond that. Both simple and standard models produce the same quality of arrows that most epic archers saved for 'special occasions' in the old system, are easily obtainable by mid-level characters, and cost less when accounting for essences saved.

Changing habits is daunting at times. But dedicated archers willing to learn how the templates work will find high-quality ammunition both easier and more affordable to make.
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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Subbed » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:49 pm

It's not really true that simple templates are equivalent to the old system, due to the temporary essence dropping from 1d6 to 1d4. You need to work up to a standard template to reach something with similar damage for the same resources but also utilizing a template.

While being able to use any magical buff is interesting, the way the template stores them requires that you visit the mage again after 500 arrows. The previous system allowed you to see them once and have them cast the spell 4 times on 4 bundles as an example to store up a bigger collection of arrows. As it stands, if I wanted arrows on a standard template to replicate the deafening clang bundles before, I would need to hold 4 templates at once to ensure I had 2000 arrows to use. One short ~20-30 minute adventure burns through 500 arrows pretty easily for reference. So mage spells are practically limited to special occasion templates or require you to stack multiple templates to maintain arrows over a long journey before you are required to go see the mage again.

Okay, so I have to make multiple (standard templates) to get the same thing I had before, and still have to make the essences and still have to see the mage. All I ask is the opportunity to be able to build the higher DC templates effectively without deleveling or rerolling all the way. I like my character, I like being able to make arrows, and I would prefer not to have to buy four templates or bother other people to make 4 templates for me all the time to keep up with how I was doing things before. I'll still be asking for things like brass fittings.

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Kenji » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:59 pm

Good point out on the tempo essences being nerfed part, I stand corrected that the new simple templates are not entirely the same as the old bundles before, but still fairly similar.

At the same time, one template allows for more than 1 archer bundle (5 charges) to be 'enchanted' than before. A wizard will have to cast the spell 4 times on one bundle every time, with a template, it only needs to be supercharged once, as long as you exhaust all of your multiple bundles' "unique power on object" onto the template before the unstable slot expires (if it has a time limit, I haven't have tested things out extensively IG yet and patch notes are spotty in details). I don't think you need to carry more templates than you imagined.

I guess the update favors crafting oriented players like me and makes more adventuring-focused players having to go through more hassle.

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Subbed » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:02 pm

Using the bundle on the template uses 1 charge for 100 arrows. So 5 charges is 500 arrows. The temporary slots last 5 charges or a total of 500 arrows or 1 bundle use through the template. It is exactly like before with the bundles except you must use the bundles through the template.

I guess you could make bundles, use them on the template and then have the mage cast on the template again and then use your next bundle to replicate.

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Kenji » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:07 pm

But at least we don't have to waste 4 times as more permanent essences now, that is the expensive part. Or do we?

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Subbed » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Permanent essences are where you save. It's arguable that you save about one or two based on the crafting points and additional temporary essences needed.

Where it gets difficult is if you don't want to constantly bother a mage or can't craft the better templates because you didn't know you'd need a certain amount of points in carpentry vs spreading them around to work on multiple things.

I'm okay with the new system really, I just would like to be able to restructure my points so that I can still do most of the work for making my own arrows. As I know I will still go through these templates fairly quickly.

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by yellowcateyes » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:53 pm

You may want to inquire with the DM team as to whether they'd be willing to field a one-time crafting point reset for established archers. This is entirely up to the DM team, however.
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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Revelations » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:12 pm

Preliminary notice: I loathe crafting in all its forms with a passion.

Pre-update:

Standard issue arrows - Not the ones you'd use in boss fights / PvP, just your bread and butter pew pew during extended dungeon crawls:

Create bundle (can't even do that anymore because I didn't take a +1 AB feat on a zen archer build)
Enchantment basin +1d4
temporary essence +1d6
=Perfectly fine arrows

Can do it all on your own, or use an enchanter for better success rates at the enchantment basin.

I think on average with failed attempts and essence pricing, 5000 for 500 arrows.

Now?

Uh...

I don't even think I'll start to avoid getting sad again. Haven't seen a single template for sale in a shop. I have no clue where I'm supposed to get proper arrows now.
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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Invader_Nym » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:26 pm

Yma23 wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:54 pm

But look, as a Barbarian my character an amble about most places. Having a mage around helps, but he has a nice sword always, and can drop a couple of essences on at any time for ease. Temp essences are easy to get, and a perminent essence is, well, perminent.
I tried to argue this in a different post. I actually think that requiring some builds/classes to rely heavily on craftable consumables, while others don't, is bad design.

My argument was, imagine what this game would be like if you couldn't buy healing kits in stores, and instead healing kits all had to be player crafted. That's essentially the reality for certain consumable-dependent builds.

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Kenji » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:41 pm

As a crafter, this update makes me feel happy and giddy on the inside, even though I have to reroll most of my characters due to it.

But I can see why it can be a big deal for some of the archer players, now.

Maybe a way to accommodate both types of players is that make the basic and simple templates available in NPC shops at a certain price? This would disincentivize the need to craft these templates, so to compensate, make the 'crafted versions' simply yield more templates than the ones sold.

As for the templates not being in shops, well, the update just rolled out, we hardly have time to come up with a set crafting 'pattern' for the templates, yet. Not to mention some of us archers have to reroll, players may have to wait a while for these to pop up consistently.

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Re: ammunition changes.

Post by Opustus » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:24 pm

So, how does one go about making a decent stack of arrows now?

1. Buy a stack of plain arrows
2. Hit it with Stable Essence Template (e.g. +1d6 electrical)
3. Hit it on top of it an Unstable Essence (e.g. +1d6 fire, refuelled with Flame weapon scrolls)
4. Result: a 99 arrow stack of +1d6 fire, +1d6 electrical
5. If in want of better arrows, one can either start the stacking of essences with a crafted or basin enchanted arrow stack.

Did I get the above right? I haven't a clue how the bundle works: does it produce a limited or an unlimited amount of the given arrow types, e.g. damask arrow bundle produces a 99 stack of damask arrows? If this is the case, then getting a +3 physical damage, +1d6 elemental damage, +1d6 elemental damage arrows sounds a fairly easy task.

I haven't tested the updated ammunition system in-game, but it seems as though for a player to utilise a ranged character she no longer needs to put up with the scutwork of enchanting the bundle to yield a decent stack of arrows, but can instead settle for a nice +1d6+1d6 damage arrow stack that is attainable with a few clicks after having crafted the templates for it.
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