About That Enchanting Suggestion

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Griefmaker » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:57 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:15 pm
If we gave Conjuration portals, and we gave Transmutation enchantment basin powers, then we'd have to not only get Enchantment something, but every other School would need something as well to be on par with how powerful Conjuration would become.

Conjuration already IS arguably the most powerful School to specialize in; making it more powerful would require something to make up for the lack of power in the other schools. And that would make wizards (and also sorcerers) all the more powerful.

Leaving everything as it is now, however, is the easiest way to let things stay somewhat balanced. If you change them, they'll become far more unbalanced.
I am in this camp too.

The way things are now may not follow DnD canon...but there is DnD canon and there is established Arelith canon (perhaps not ideal, but it is what it is), as we have seen in many instances.

If Enchantment is deemed to require another cookie because it is considered less powerful of a magic school, then another RP cookie like what has been suggested is not a bad thing. But some things which are not necessarily broken but could break a lot with a change should probably just be left as they are, despite how they do not fit in traditional lore.

With that being said, if we could figure out how to bring something like FL's item enchanting over, then I would be game for that!

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Wytchee » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:49 pm

I can't help but notice a lack of argument from the "keep everything the way it is" people in this thread, beyond a stubborn opposition to change. I'm sorry if that's snarky, but really, enchantment is bad and useless in its current incarnation, and this is such an objective, observable fact that I am genuinely baffled why anyone would suggest it's fine the way it is. :?

The main annoyance I find in terms of enchanting *IS* its tie to the enchantment basin. The school is mechanically useless barring exceptionally rare/lucky circumstances, and yet I feel compelled to take it because I know that if I don't I'll be kicking myself in the butt once it comes time to start crafting end-game gear. If we as a community decide that Enchantment is fine the way it is, mechanically, then we need to give it more RP perks in the form of social-skill bonuses or the -mist command I posted in the other thread. Make it the quintessential RP school of magic. Because despite what others say in this thread, taking three feats just so I can stand around at the basin having scrubs get mad at me for bad rolls and wasting their gold isn't my idea of fun.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Nitro » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:57 pm

Wytchee wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:49 pm
but really, enchantment is bad and useless in its current incarnation, and this is such an objective, observable fact that I am genuinely baffled why anyone would suggest it's fine the way it is? ...

...The school is mechanically useless barring exceptionally rare/lucky circumstances, and yet I feel compelled to take it because I know that if I don't I'll be kicking myself in the butt once it comes time to start crafting end-game gear.
You're contradicting yourself there. Enchantment is far from 'objectively' bad or useless in its current incarnation. The very opposite, it's necessary to enchant high-end gear which in itself makes it incredibly valuable and useful. The issue isn't that it's bad (though spellcasting wise, it kind of is, but there's another thread for that) but that it's not very fun to be slaving over an enchantment basin for hours.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Wytchee » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:27 pm

Nitro wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:57 pm
Wytchee wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:49 pm
but really, enchantment is bad and useless in its current incarnation, and this is such an objective, observable fact that I am genuinely baffled why anyone would suggest it's fine the way it is? ...

...The school is mechanically useless barring exceptionally rare/lucky circumstances, and yet I feel compelled to take it because I know that if I don't I'll be kicking myself in the butt once it comes time to start crafting end-game gear.
You're contradicting yourself there. Enchantment is far from 'objectively' bad or useless in its current incarnation. The very opposite, it's necessary to enchant high-end gear which in itself makes it incredibly valuable and useful. The issue isn't that it's bad (though spellcasting wise, it kind of is, but there's another thread for that) but that it's not very fun to be slaving over an enchantment basin for hours.
Sorry, but I'm not contradicting myself at all. I am reiterating a point I had made

The school is bad mechanically (as you said, "spellcasting wise"), yet is necessary for the production of "high end gear"; so what results is a spell school that is at worst useless, and at best outperformed by other schools like Illusion and Divination for the purposes of disabling opponents. Ultimately it's three feats spent just to make gear that you could get anyway, albeit at a greater investment of both time and gold.

I took enchantment because I wanted Dusty to be an enchantress , not an "artificer" or "item imbuer" or "gear monkey." I want her to muddle minds, not stand around an enchanting pool making the same +1/+1 +2/+2/+2 gear again and again until I -delete_character out of boredom. We're playing a game, after all, and mechanics are important; people seem to be discounting that.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Ork » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:59 pm

You do know you don't have to argue with anyone in this thread. These "status-quo" proponents can't change anything about enchantment even if they agreed with you. The irony is that enchantment has the same issue in 3.5 as well. And arguably enchantment is better now that protection from good & evil has been nerfed. Enchantment isn't a bad school to choose & there will always been mechanically superior choices in nwn.

Nothing has to be on equal footing with anything else. There's a lot of entitlement in this thread around making schools similarly optimal, but in the end its more about preserving a player's character choices. It's disturbing to me since Arelith has always been a place of "deal with it" when it came to mechanical changes that might favor others but leave others in the dust.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Wytchee » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:15 pm

Ork wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:59 pm
You do know you don't have to argue with anyone in this thread. These "status-quo" proponents can't change anything about enchantment even if they agreed with you. The irony is that enchantment has the same issued in 3.5 as well. And arguably enchantment is better now that protection from good & evil has been nerfed. Enchantment isn't a bad school to choose & there will always been mechanically superior choices in nwn.

Nothing has to be on equal footing with anything else. There's a lot of entitlement in this thread around making schools similarly optimal, but in the end its more about preserving a player's character choices. It's disturbing to me since Arelith has always been a place of "deal with it" when it came to mechanical changes that might favor others but leave others in the dust.
Meh, I'm not "arguing" so much as I'm advocating for a change. It's my favorite school, thematically, and I would like to see its shortcomings corrected; I don't reeeeaally appreciate the insinuation that this means I feel somehow "entitled" to any change.

This is the "Feedback" section, after all.

I'm not personally comfortable with the "deal with it" approach, either, and I'm glad that mindset has diminished in recent years. I appreciate the devs who have dipped into this thread and others on the topic and are hearing (and largely agreeing with) our concerns.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Versatile » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:47 pm

The problem there is, you took the enchantment school to mess with minds, which is great, but some of us took the enchantment feats because we actually like standing around the basin and don’t find it boring. Fixing the school so you get more out of it and it becomes closer in line with the others can come without changing or taking away from those of us that want to be the boring people hanging around town.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Peppermint » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:55 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:But invalidating half the casters with a change in Enchantment foci wouldn't be problematic? I'm genuinely curious as to why some classes are getting more careful treatment than others.
No one wants to invalidate enchanters. Some have stated that enchanters need buffs, but I don't see how that 'invalidates' them.

I've noticed an underlying trend in a lot of threads lately that seems to posit some kind of 'melee vs caster supremacy' conspiracy from the developers. Which strikes me as really very strange.

Some schools and spells could do to be looked at, sure--but casters are in a great place. Personally, I love casters. The sorcerer is one of my favorite classes; most of the characters I've played on Arelith have been casters. I know the same is true for a number of active developers. There's certainly no conspiracy here.

Casters have a greater overall skill component, which can make them seem weak or underappreciated in the wrong hands. But they have been by no means ignored.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Wytchee » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:25 pm

Versatile wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:47 pm
The problem there is, you took the enchantment school to mess with minds, which is great, but some of us took the enchantment feats because we actually like standing around the basin and don’t find it boring. Fixing the school so you get more out of it and it becomes closer in line with the others can come without changing or taking away from those of us that want to be the boring people hanging around town.
It's not like anyone is saying that to buff enchanting mechanically we need to necessarily take away the things you enjoy about it, either. Even if enchantment is decoupled from the basin, I'd hope we'd all get to keep our niches.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Ork » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:57 pm

Wytchee, I apologize. When I wrote the entitlement piece it was targeted to the many and in no way towards you. My bad in failing to communicate that, as clearly my first paragraph is directed towards you.

Here's the way I see it: by and far the devs are mindful with every implementation and change that they've made & have shown countless times that they're willing to change their stance when players voice their concerns constructively.

I also agree with you that a number of "status quo" crowd have aligned themselves as opposition on the only basis that changing anything invalidates their current character. To those people I mention that when large changes have happened that completely change a characters skill set (i.e. PDK changes, not Dragonshape changes) they have show precedent of working with those particular players through remakes - though it is by no guarantee this will be true.

I think we need to truly appreciate how changing enchantment will inevitably change the tentative balance the devs & mechanics gurus have been able to actualize. Any suggestion has to be cautious that the change could tip any number of power balances.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:16 am

Red Ropes original suggestion literally doesn't even take away their ability to stand around a basin and make +1/+1/+2/+2/+2/+2 gear until they get bored and -delete_character x2

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Woper_The_Black » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:13 am

If they created their character and played it for the specific purpose of being sought after as a unique person that could "enchant" equipment better than others then if you give this ability to all you are certainly invalidating that character and taking away the core reason for playing it, no one is going to ever come to that character anymore if everybody can do it. This was certainly the reasoning behind the basin change that occured a little over 12 months ago because it was stated then that only taking the spell focuses would allow you to add +1 or +2.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:18 am

Peppermint wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:55 pm
Casters have a greater overall skill component, which can make them seem weak or underappreciated in the wrong hands. But they have been by no means ignored.
I definitely don't think they're being ignored. I mean, look at all the amazing Spell foci changes!
But sometimes it does feel like mundane classes - and particularly multi-classers - get far more cookies and goodies than the pure caster. That's not Arelith's fault, that's just how the game seems to be designed.


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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Peppermint » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:34 am

Yes, it's true that pure casters aren't a priority.

Mundanes have received more attention than casters lately, however, because many of them were in a bad spot.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Cortex » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:14 am

Mundanes benefit more from multiclassing, and a lot of mundanes were bad, ergo, there was a lot of focus on multiclassing builds.

Casters rarely benefit of taking a third class, or having more than 4 or 5 levels in anything else other than their main caster class, and they're plenty powerful that way. Instead of multiclassing, they've different spell focuses and epic spells they can customize their character with. Very few mundane builds have the freedom to do that.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:16 pm

Woper_The_Black wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:13 am
If they created their character and played it for the specific purpose of being sought after as a unique person that could "enchant" equipment better than others then if you give this ability to all you are certainly invalidating that character and taking away the core reason for playing it, no one is going to ever come to that character anymore if everybody can do it. This was certainly the reasoning behind the basin change that occured a little over 12 months ago because it was stated then that only taking the spell focuses would allow you to add +1 or +2.
"Everyone" lol that's not the case even in red ropes original suggestion

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Wytchee » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:32 pm

Woper_The_Black wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:13 am
If they created their character and played it for the specific purpose of being sought after as a unique person that could "enchant" equipment better than others then if you give this ability to all you are certainly invalidating that character and taking away the core reason for playing it, no one is going to ever come to that character anymore if everybody can do it. This was certainly the reasoning behind the basin change that occured a little over 12 months ago because it was stated then that only taking the spell focuses would allow you to add +1 or +2.
Again, this seems to be the chief argument against any sort of change, and while I don't mean to dismiss it out of hand, it's hardly a convincing one. "I want to protect my niche" is something I sympathize with, but imho the coupling of enchantment and the basin was a mistake from the get-go, so at this point, we're just spinning around a fallacy of sunk costs. I would be content if Enchantment was given some sort of -command on its own, like Wardmist, as I have stated in another thread - something that gives it a bit more utility beyond the enchantment basin. Some more oomf to its spell list couldn't hurt either.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Woper_The_Black » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:59 am

by Irongron » 24 Mar 2017 00:33
Couple of bits of insight from myself.

First off, this is the last big 'surprise' change in the economy updates, and naturally I couldn't let it be known beforehand. I wanted this to go live at the same time as procedural loot, but in the end there was a delay. Because procedural loot is effectively going to be infinitely spawned I'm not yet sure how the server will look in a few weeks/months time.

For enchanters I hope that this would be a boon, because many of these items would be ripe for further enchanting, though i the case of that item screenshotted above, it is definitely an 'end game' item, and I can see how it is not something to be enchanted. I've a lot of faith in Midnight to get the numbers right here, and so I expect not to see mid level characters fully equipped with items of this kind, and many more going cheap in every PC shop.

As for heal; removing it entirely was not our intention, but rather limiting it to +1 bonuses only. In the end making such an exception for this skill proved difficult, as a result I'll be adding more heal specific loot drops and craftables.

Obviously I knew this change to skill enchantment would be less than popular with some people, and we didn't take the decision lightly. It was a planned part of the economic update since the start.

Removing/reducing the XP cost for enchantment I also think makes a great deal of sense, and we'll likely see some movement there in the coming days.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:46 pm

Can you elaborate on it's relevancy?

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Woper_The_Black » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:13 am

by Basementfellow » 23 Jun 2018 05:09

Remove the enchanting mechanic away from only enchantment focuses. The amount of scarcity when it comes to enchanters, being able to find them, and just, in general, the sort of silliness it comes with them being locked behind feats when in the world of Forgotten Realms basically anyone with caster levels (and usually feats) can make magical items.

What I propose, is that character level in specific classes instead determines the above.

Since the following are full caster clerics, they could instead do enchantment like above, earmarked.

Cleric
Druid
Wizard
Sorc

5th Level: +1 Skill, 33% Success with Runic, 10% Cost Reduction
15th Level: +2 Skills at 15th level, 66% Success with Runic, 20% Cost Reduction
25th Level: 100% Success with Runic, 35% Cost Reduction

------

'Off casters', potentially could be considered as well as Bards, Rangers, Paladins, and Warlocks are capable of making enchanted goods in DnD, and one of the Warlock's 'big deals' is that they can micmic/falsify spell/class created enchanted goods for their own nefarious purposes anyway.

Bard/Warlock
Ranger/Paladin

10th Level: +1 Skill, 33% Success with Runic, 10% Cost Reduction
20th Level: +2 Skills at 15th level, 66% Success with Runic, 20% Cost Reduction
25th Level: 100% Success with Runic, 35% Cost Reduction
I really, really, really like this suggestion.

The antiquated and illogical nature of Arelith's enchanting system is a pet-peeve of mine, and many others' I'm sure. Red Ropes' original post (summarized above) pretty much addresses everything I personally take issue with, and I find myself curious as to what others think. Here's hoping this sparks some discussion.
This was the original comment at the start of the thread. Meaning a discussion on allowing the enchantment foci to be disconnected and allow character level in certain classes to be able to add skill points instead of taking the enchantment foci to do this. I quoted the other post by irongron being relevant that the owner of the server decided that putting the skill +1 and +2 tied to the enchanting foci was going to upset some people but the decision was not taken lightly...and yet here we are a little over 12 months on trying to change that decision. I guess what's irritating me the most is this was discussed in a 6 page forum post shortly after the implementation and nothing changed. To be bluntly honest I didn't understand the changes either at the time, but I do at least have enough respect that once the decision was made I accepted it. I think it's wrong and disrespectful to try yet again to change this. I'm only 1 person of course but that's my opinion.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:33 am

Okay I see what you're saying now! Still, the concept behind enchantment focii being that it required effort to attain these skill bonus 'levels' - there's absolutely nothing stopping this from being transferred to another metric, or anything saying that the suggestion has to be implemented exactly as described.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:43 am

When Transmutation focus was terrible (your words, devs, not mine), it was given cookies. Nothing was removed from it. On the contrary, a lot of tweaks were made so that it was more useful, the zoo buffs comes to mind first, and then the party portal as well.

When Enchantment is pretty bad (combat-wise, anyway), it should be given cookies as well. Most of us can agree with that. What we don't want, however, is the Basin aspect to be removed. If the Spell foci are already bad, why make them worse by taking away the only reason people went Enchantment in the first place? Why not add more cookies, as with Transmutation?


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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:49 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:43 am
What we don't want
I mean this in the least offensive way possible but please take care in your chosen language to not speak for all of us. It should be pretty obvious by now after 200+ posts that a healthy % of the server population wishes it decoupled from the focii.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:58 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:43 am
When Transmutation focus was terrible (your words, devs, not mine), it was given cookies. Nothing was removed from it. On the contrary, a lot of tweaks were made so that it was more useful, the zoo buffs comes to mind first, and then the party portal as well.

When Enchantment is pretty bad (combat-wise, anyway), it should be given cookies as well. Most of us can agree with that. What we don't want, however, is the Basin aspect to be removed. If the Spell foci are already bad, why make them worse by taking away the only reason people went Enchantment in the first place? Why not add more cookies, as with Transmutation?
Surely if the basin aspect is removed, you can add even more cookies to bring enchantment up to par with the rest of the schools.

Part of the problem with the current paradigm (Weird lore aspects aside) is that every character needs an enchanter at some point in their life (or frequently multiple points) but comparatively few people want to be enchanters. Move the basin to all casters, give enchantment several cookies that reflect its status as "the mental manipulation school", and you solve all three problems.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Wytchee » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:52 am

Hunter548 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:58 am
MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:43 am
When Transmutation focus was terrible (your words, devs, not mine), it was given cookies. Nothing was removed from it. On the contrary, a lot of tweaks were made so that it was more useful, the zoo buffs comes to mind first, and then the party portal as well.

When Enchantment is pretty bad (combat-wise, anyway), it should be given cookies as well. Most of us can agree with that. What we don't want, however, is the Basin aspect to be removed. If the Spell foci are already bad, why make them worse by taking away the only reason people went Enchantment in the first place? Why not add more cookies, as with Transmutation?
Surely if the basin aspect is removed, you can add even more cookies to bring enchantment up to par with the rest of the schools.

Part of the problem with the current paradigm (Weird lore aspects aside) is that every character needs an enchanter at some point in their life (or frequently multiple points) but comparatively few people want to be enchanters. Move the basin to all casters, give enchantment several cookies that reflect its status as "the mental manipulation school", and you solve all three problems.
This summarizes literally every thought I have on this subject.
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