About That Enchanting Suggestion

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Dr_Hazard89
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:08 pm

Give enchantment to transmuters, give teleportation/portals to conjurers?

>.>
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JediMindTrix
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:19 pm

Personally I'd kill for a GSF Dimension Door ability a la Baldur's Gate.

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Miaou
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Miaou » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:48 pm

The Suggestion Box board does not have the ability to be replied to for a reason. As such, we do not allow responses and feedback to be given to them outside of staff. Please keep this in mind for the future.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Dunshine » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:56 am

Re-opened this topic. The suggestion box doesn't have reply options to not clutter it for us, but it's fine to discuss them in this section.

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Kenji
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Kenji » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:12 am

I would, well, hate is a strong word; I would frown very badly if I had to reroll my characters again because of this change on top of the recent ranger update, but I must agree with some of the points made here. Rangers can use the bonus feat intended for FE to take GSF, instead. I myself have utilized this for crafting purposes but sometimes found it hard to relay the information through RP, partly because my subconscious (now conscious) mind has been telling me that this isn't right.

JediMindTrix
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:08 pm

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:08 pm
Give enchantment to transmuters, give teleportation/portals to conjurers?

>.>
I didn't see this before but +1

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Baron Saturday
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:15 pm

So this has come up before, as has the idea of moving Enchantment bonuses to Transmutation. The full discussion can be seen here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=18236

I'm gonna quote myself from that thread real quick.
Baron Saturday wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:17 pm
So if the abilities were simply migrated, here's what we'd have:

Transmutation
Zoo buff bonuses, basin bonuses, golem creation.

Conjuration
Summon bonuses, teleport, yoink, create portal.

Enchantment
Nada

This makes both transmutation and conjuration miles better than other schools, and none of the abilities on them are appropriate for enchantment, meaning something would need to be flat-out removed. Which I would hate to see, because there's a lot of cool stuff there.
The elegance of Red Ropes' proposal is that, while it does remove cookies from Enchantment, it doesn't require the other schools to be rebalanced, nor does it require Enchanters to remake as Transmuters. The only challenge is the creation of a new cookie for Enchantment foci. Personally, I still like my idea (from the same thread) of -sympathy and -antipathy commands which act as AoE aggro management, attracting or repelling mobs from the target of the command. Based on the spells of the same name:
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sympathy
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Antipathy
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JediMindTrix
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:28 pm

How about a level 10 spell that forces everyone in an AoE to... dance.

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Red Ropes
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Red Ropes » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:44 pm

Jedi, an epic mass AoE of Otto's Irresistable would be BASED.
🤡

JediMindTrix
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:03 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That'd be some shenanigans I'd be willing to pay for

Fionn
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Fionn » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:32 pm

JediMindTrix wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:24 pm
Yes, Clerics/Druids who took it would be screwed but I'd wager that's a very miniscule minority.
Won't somebody think about the Rangers?! ;-þ
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Rags
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Rags » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:30 pm

In regards to the spell foci as the whole, I feel as if they're in a strange place. They all have different progressions, and a variety of functionality; varying from being purely a roleplay bonus, or having mechanical weight.

That being said, I don't think that enchantment's current bonuses are thematically fitting, or appropriate. One thing they are, though, is useful.

If we'd look to change enchantment, I'd really point towards giving the entire category of spell focuses a look. In my own tastes, they'd all ideally have a roleplay cookie (e.g. -whatever), and a mechanical benefit.

In reality, as it stands, several schools seem left behind in the tracks of others. I'd point this imbalance in roleplay incentives, and mechanical boons to be the reason. Though, undoubtedly, there are other factors at play.

I'd suggest the below as replaced bonuses to enchantment:

RP:
- Some sort of charm, or spell, that grants bonuses to bluff, persuade, intimidate, and persuade. This would could be roleplayed as creating a charm against others that view you, to protect your disguise, or charming a merchant.

Mechanical:
- Increased duration for Dominate and Charm spells, to make dominating creatures a feasible way to have a servant, rather than summoning.

Not entirely happy with the above suggestions, but just my two cents.

TimeAdept
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:33 pm

Enchantment Focuses adding buffs to dominated monsters Conjuration style would be pretty cool.

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Diilicious
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Diilicious » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:40 pm

Let epic enchanters have a spell that upon casting, spawns 4 modelless, voicepackless, indestructable, unhittable NPC's that can not be controlled nor do any damage of any kind, if the target fails the will save they will begin to try and attack the invisible NPC's, otherwise they will just ignore them.

This would simulate the enchanter making the target (or targets) believe that there are some creatures trying to kill them though in reality and to anyone watching they are just fighting with air because there is nothing actually there and its all in their head.
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flower
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by flower » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:59 pm

Diilicious wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:40 pm
Let epic enchanters have a spell that upon casting, spawns 4 modelless, voicepackless, indestructable, unhittable NPC's that can not be controlled nor do any damage of any kind, if the target fails the will save they will begin to try and attack the invisible NPC's, otherwise they will just ignore them.

This would simulate the enchanter making the target (or targets) believe that there are some creatures trying to kill them though in reality and to anyone watching they are just fighting with air because there is nothing actually there and its all in their head.
Sounds more like an illusion spell.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:22 pm

Altering what the spell schools do just sounds to me like it would upset so many players. I think you would have to at least have new version and old version models, not just suddenly switch a huge amount of rp dictating abilities for everyone playing one of the most popular classes on the server.

Rwby
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Rwby » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:24 pm

Arn't enchantment spells quite... ~Good~

Though? A successful cast of Hold Monster is a GG as a Finger of Death, in most cases.

The reason necromancy gets ~zero~ buffs is because the spell school is just considered good enough alone, yet Enchantment gets super server essential crafting tweaks, and is a solid spellschool?

Compare this to divination, which if you have an epic focus gives you a RP tool to use on the unsuspecting, and otherwise is flat useless, particularly mechanically.

I just don't buy that Enchantment Focuses are somehow mega bad without the 'Enchantment' cookie.

JediMindTrix
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:42 pm

Necromancy does get buffs though RWBY, along the same lines proposed of giving buffs to dominated monsters (which makes sense thematically).

Enchantment spells are pretty good on their own, ya, but they're not evocation good. The school is still neutered by three spells, one of which isn't even breachable. That's ignoring the scores of mobs with Mind Immunity. I've yet to see anything immune to Evocation.

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Kenji
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Kenji » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:40 pm

Interesting enough, in my experience in PnP D&D, direct damage and heals are often the inferior options seeing that encounters are a lot more dynamic (and rare, not like in video game D&D where a fight happens every five minutes). Each fight feels like a fight to the death, depending on the DM. We experience at most about two encounters per a four-hour-long session.

Enchantment school spells are often preferred because they essentially mitigate damage and debuffs long enough for your teammates to do the killing. Sometimes, a party doesn't even have to kill all the enemies! There are multiple ways of ending an encounter: cast hold person, take out the ropes and tie the enemies in place for later interrogation, make some kind of skill check to see if the rope is successfully tied, the enemy can make a strength or dex save to see if it can get out of the robes, etc. Far more interactive and creative than just "kill them all".

I know there is an option to "Lasso" IG, but it still not quite the same.

I digress, figured I would throw out something off tangent, it surprised me that enchantment school isn't considered as powerful probably because it lacked the power to end an encounter, only prolongs it in NWN.

thingsicantdo
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by thingsicantdo » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:58 am

enchantment is powerful at low-mid levels. it starts losing steam at higher levels, though. i think some people here must know something i don't, though, if "evocation" is considered good. seems to me mobs on arelith have far, far too many hit points to be dealt with using direct damage spells unless you're a TF sorc

Tourmaline
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Tourmaline » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:23 am

Evocation is strong because of Hellball, Greater Ruin and the Bigbys line more than direct damage spells (missles aside, but focuses don't affect them). Though there are some decent ones.

This seems like a bit of mass OCD to me, changing a system that works well enough solely because enchantment isn't quite the right school. But I guess nerding out over something so minor is half what this game is about.

If enchantment focuses were to no longer affect the basin though, maybe epic enchanters could bypass mind immunity spells and effects from non-epic enchanters. So a pesky clarity potion or mind blank spell wouldn't keep them from confusing or holding though you'd still need to roll a will save.

TimeAdept
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:45 am

Rwby wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:24 pm
Arn't enchantment spells quite... ~Good~

Though? A successful cast of Hold Monster is a GG as a Finger of Death, in most cases.

The reason necromancy gets ~zero~ buffs is because the spell school is just considered good enough alone, yet Enchantment gets super server essential crafting tweaks, and is a solid spellschool?

Compare this to divination, which if you have an epic focus gives you a RP tool to use on the unsuspecting, and otherwise is flat useless, particularly mechanically.

I just don't buy that Enchantment Focuses are somehow mega bad without the 'Enchantment' cookie.
You can't -pray out of dead.

Divination has the best single target kill spell in the game in PW:K.

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afreshstart
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by afreshstart » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:07 am

Perhaps making domination spells work like rangers animal emphaty could work. GSF allowing you to take perma control of 1 monster and ESF allowing you to take control of 2.

Rwby
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Rwby » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:11 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:45 am
Rwby wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:24 pm
Arn't enchantment spells quite... ~Good~

Though? A successful cast of Hold Monster is a GG as a Finger of Death, in most cases.

The reason necromancy gets ~zero~ buffs is because the spell school is just considered good enough alone, yet Enchantment gets super server essential crafting tweaks, and is a solid spellschool?

Compare this to divination, which if you have an epic focus gives you a RP tool to use on the unsuspecting, and otherwise is flat useless, particularly mechanically.

I just don't buy that Enchantment Focuses are somehow mega bad without the 'Enchantment' cookie.
You can't -pray out of dead.

Divination has the best single target kill spell in the game in PW:K.
And PW:K is related a discussion on Spell Focuses how...?

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Astegard » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:27 am

afreshstart wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:07 am
Perhaps making domination spells work like rangers animal emphaty could work. GSF allowing you to take perma control of 1 monster and ESF allowing you to take control of 2.
I was immediately thinking of this aswell for enchantment, allow enchanters to dominate more than 1 npc.

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