About That Enchanting Suggestion

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Versatile
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Versatile » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:07 pm

"....but it should be optional and fun not forcing people together to solve basic needs."

With all the random magic items found on mobs and in chests I personally can not agree that high end enchanted gear is something that is made to meet 'basic needs'. Those are already met most times by the random things found. Yes I'm aware that they are not each going to be a perfect fit but it still fits that low end first gear, which, should be the basic need.

I would personally be completely fine with losing two lvls down to 20 and giving up sfe and gsfe for the two crafting feats I don't have (if they gave enchant basin abilities). If it is that enchantment school sucks then why not just fix the school and leave the basin perks alone?

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:34 pm

The random magic items are nowhere near what's going to be made by crafting for endgame stuff. They generically suffice while levelling because all you really need is some stat points here and there.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Xerah » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:36 pm

Typically, by epic levels, you’ll have a set of dual ability and +2 disc that is fine at that point. I don’t know why you’d do your enchanting at level 10 unless someone is giving you heaps of gold
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Versatile
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Versatile » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:31 pm

Which is exactly why I said 'basic'. I don't consider end game enchanted gear or crafted items as basic. I consider the random things found as your 'basic' gear.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:27 pm

Xerah wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:36 pm
Typically, by epic levels, you’ll have a set of dual ability and +2 disc that is fine at that point. I don’t know why you’d do your enchanting at level 10 unless someone is giving you heaps of gold
Most of my characters tend to take the early writ money straight to the basin to make a full set of +1 primary stat gear.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:00 am

I really, very strongly, powerfully do NOT want to do dungeons to create gear(find basins). I want to roleplay and stay in town and use my EPIC WIZARD POWERS to create gear for people. That's another blunt way of putting my own desires in words.

It is part of the class fantasy. My character can create magical items. That's the character I made and am playing. A wizard who creates items for people. A conjurer (who for some reason can't teleport or create portals) an evocationist and an enchantress. If enchanters lose the ability to create items, fine... I'll get over it, but I really don't want to have to go do a dungeon to make them. I feel it invalidates my playstyle.

EDIT: Coincidentally after posting this had a brief chat with someone and maybe I can put it into words better. I told them how much I loathe grinding and how much I love playing my wizard. My wizard is perfect to me because I have the 3 crafting feats (potion, scroll, wand) and I can create items, plus lots of crafting skills+gift. That's what I love to do and I don't want it taken from me.

Every character I've ever made, for the very long time I've been here, has had some nagging flaw that makes me not want to play them and I've finally found one I can just be incredibly happy with. I love how wild mages are, and everything about my build and I don't want it to change :|

I know I'm speaking selfishly here, but .. Hey. These are my feelings, alright? I listen to you guys about yours all the time :P
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:46 pm

What about -kill command. Power Word Kill for enchanters. Enchantment school after all. Make a will save vs death, but like implode cannot be protected with a simple death ward. Once per day.

Just throwing terrible ideas at the wall here and seeing which sticks.
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Baron Saturday
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:56 pm

Having SF: Enchantment and casting an enchantment spell on a hostile target with clarity has an X% chance to remove clarity. GSF allows for the removal of lesser mind blank, and ESF can remove mind blank.

SF/GSF/ESF has an X%/2X%/3X% chance to immobilize a mind-immune target for X/2X/3X rounds.

ESF can, 1/rest, send a message to a target that can ONLY be heard by the target. Basically an IC tell.

GSF causes a mind-immune target to take X magical damage/spell level. ESF increases the damage. A psychic backlash sorta thing.
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afreshstart
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by afreshstart » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:22 pm

That'd make SF too strong compared to ESF, since you can just breach lesser mind blank and mind blank

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Baron Saturday
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:46 pm

Could scale the % chance. Say SF has a 10% clarity removal, GSF gives 15% clarity/LMB, ESF gives 20% clarity/LMB/MB. Tweak the numbers as needed.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by flower » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:45 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:46 pm
Could scale the % chance. Say SF has a 10% clarity removal, GSF gives 15% clarity/LMB, ESF gives 20% clarity/LMB/MB. Tweak the numbers as needed.
Then have the timer on clarity removed...

The removal of clarity should be done on cast of a breach spell anyway. It would also help you in terms of spells slots. Dropping a breach would allow chance to remove clarity from a meeler while you preserve that memorized enchantment spell in reserve for when it happens. And i would go that far to even tie the chance to the level of breach and % related on enchantment focusses.

But with that i would shorten duration of these spells casted on PCs. There is no reason why PC should be under fear for almost three minutes long.



As for enchanting if change is still demanded just scrap enchanting as whole, dissolve it into individual trades like Fixed level has.

Allow smiths to improve metal things, tailors cloths, artists jewelry. Chance based on the trade sklil. This way a master tailor can make awsome items (a way he cannot now, to make custom items) etc etc etc.

The spell focuses in enchantment can then lower the price (and thus increase %), and people who took enchanting could be granted remake of trade sklil points instead of full relevel.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Woper_The_Black » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:18 am

I have the same reasons as DR hazzard. Same style of character I love to play for the exact same reasons, and there are others that feel the same way.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by RedGiant » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:31 am

Same concerns as Dr. Hazard. The current system is great. PLEASE do not make basins subject to high end runs. This is fine for the rune system, but should not be expanded.

If you wanted to make low end gear more accessible, the simplest solution would be to remove the enchanter requirement for skills. This would make it like it was in the old days, which wasn't terrible IMO. With all the enchanting improvements, clearly all the amazing stuff would only ever be reserved for actual enchanters (runic craftables, runic drops, runes themselves, and all other 5% enhancements). Yes we would have sneaks quickly in the 40s again within a day or two of creation, but with the restricted skill choices, most of the "abuse-able" aspects are now impossible. (Note: ensure PP is on the list if it is not already!)
Last edited by RedGiant on Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:14 am

Seems to me that the real issue is that Clarity isn't Breach-able.
Last edited by MissEvelyn on Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Cortex » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:27 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:14 am
Seems to me that the real issues is that Clarity isn't Breach-able.
Clarity not being breachable is what keeps non-save/wisdom focused builds playable.
:)

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Rwby » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:06 am

Cortex wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:27 am
MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:14 am
Seems to me that the real issues is that Clarity isn't Breach-able.
Clarity not being breachable is what keeps non-save/wisdom focused builds playable.
This is pure hyperbole.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Peppermint » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:10 am

All right. I'll bite.

How would you get by with a low will score in an environment where clarity is freely breachable?

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:41 am

You're biting a circle. This thread is going in it

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by monkeywithstick » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:36 am

Seems to me like a number of design decisions are impacting here:

Save vs death/incapacity is probably one of the weakest mechanics in 3rd edition (and by extension nwn). It is balanced in most pen and paper games by the medium of the dm not wanting to be overly harsh. Or by the ubiquitous raises if you have a hardcore tactical group.

The AI has no sympathy. And in PvP you are reliant on an opponent. Leaving out the "be nice" aspect for a moment (not that you should), your opponent can be assumed to in character at least want to win. For a wizard, certainly for a DC. build wizard, the options have to include save vs X effects. Because the alternative of railing on someone ineffectually with a staff is probably a dreadful idea.
In short, these spells are going to happen. And actually, being the target of one if it succeeds is mostly going to suck: It robs a PC of agency either by fugue or paralysis or whatever.

My point, I suppose, is that that's a design decision from the original code. The game devs threw in clarity like they threw in discipline to try and deal with something being unfun for the player. Which is totally not a huge issue in a purely PvE environment (see comment earlier on balancing save vs via DM not being an Snuggybear): NPCs don't get to feel dismissed by their build choices.

On a pure tactics balancing level the game assumes that you have weaknesses in your build. We try to force discipline into most builds to get round one of these weaknesses , and people without it are likely going to regret this fact, the same argument could be used for will saves but I've not the energy.

The thing that really kinda sucks is not that I cannot PvP with enchantments easily, I don't object to that per se because I think save vs effects really suck to be on the receiving end. It's the amount of PvE content that invalidates DC builds in one way or another. I.e immune to mind effects.

For pvp the question is only ever going to go round and round in circles. Especially by comparison to KD. Because everyone has a slightly different idea of what is mechanically "a fun build shtick" vs "a zero fun encounter" (and true PvP fun is at least in theory in the interactions surrounding and leading to I'm told).
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Rwby » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:35 am

I'm really not sure I see the line where by getting killed by enchantment spells is ~less~ fun.

Get killed by a death spell - Fugue.
Get knocked down by a weapon master - Yes, you can technically RP, but it may take so few seconds to die, you can't type anything of substance.
Get frozen by enchantment - Both you and your opponent know you're going to be held for a while, so you can engage in roleplay and dialogue prior to your death. You also get the neat option to surrender, the Subdual mode of mage casting. You also get to 'Prays' out of it, which you can't with either of the other methods of swift death.

Given the choice, I'd rather die to enchantment every time.

Let's face it, people PvPing are rarely looking to build characters that make fights long and even. And if you are looking to do that, you have the option of.. Not casting enchantment and hitting them with your staff?

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by monkeywithstick » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:38 am

Rwby wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:35 am
I'm really not sure I see the line where by getting killed by enchantment spells is ~less~ fun.

Get killed by a death spell - Fugue.
Get knocked down by a weapon master - Yes, you can technically RP, but it may take so few seconds to die, you can't type anything of substance.
Get frozen by enchantment - Both you and your opponent know you're going to be held for a while, so you can engage in roleplay and dialogue prior to your death. You also get the neat option to surrender, the Subdual mode of mage casting. You also get to 'Prays' out of it, which you can't with either of the other methods of swift death.

Given the choice, I'd rather die to enchantment every time.

Let's face it, people PvPing are rarely looking to build characters that make fights long and even. And if you are looking to do that, you have the option of.. Not casting enchantment and hitting them with your staff?
Exactly.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Peppermint » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:39 am

Death Ward isn't breachable, so not comparable.
Every build is capable of earning a decent discipline score (or has a workaround, such as -respite or monolith shapes), so not comparable.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by monkeywithstick » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:43 am

Peppermint wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:39 am
Every build is capable of earning a decent discipline score (or has a workaround, such as -respite or monolith shapes), so not comparable.
Partially because our currently viable builds are often defined by whether or not they contain discipline. There are certainly builds without discipline available they just aren't good
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Rwby » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:51 am

Peppermint wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:39 am
Death Ward isn't breachable, so not comparable.
Every build is capable of earning a decent discipline score (or has a workaround, such as -respite or monolith shaoes), so not comparable.
I'm really not sure where you're coming from Peppermint.
They're very comparable.

I'm also not sure where we came from examining all PvP fights as matches between two level 30 optimal powerbuilds who have prepwarded in a 1-1 fight situation that start a fair distance from each other with both players ready to fight.
I can see why that's the easist situation to number crunch from, but in my [relatively long] experience in Arelith that's the very very least likely situation to get into. Lots of PvP happens well before 30. Often before that mythical skill dump at level 27. Lots of PvP is very one sided, ambushes, gank squads, roving bands of Banites...

You can build against enchantment, by focusing your build on willsaves. I don't see how that's any different to defending against knockdown by building around discipline. Sure, Will save is likely to be much harder to get to high numbers, but then it's much easier to improve your AB with Knockdown to the correct levels. Max Enchantment DCs are probably going to top out around 35? Max AB tops out around 50/70?

I get this will make enchantment -more- viable, by lots, in the endgame PvP situation. [Which is good, because currently everyones dismissed it as utterly not worth it even a tiny bit]. I just don't get the vision advocated by yourself and Cortex where Arelith turns into an apocalyptic wasteland next reset, everyone rolls all their non casters, and the Arcane Tower replaces Cordor as everyone is now a wizard.

People will still play fighters. People will enjoy playing fighters. People will still get into PvP, and mages will still lose some of their fights. People will still be sore losers when they lose [Sometimes] and people will still be bad winners [sometimes.] As a whole, Arelith will carry on day by day, because unless I'm hugely mistaken, the number crunching dynamic of level 30 PvP isn't hugely important to a roleplaying server, and is only relevent at all if you're 1) Level 30 2) Involved in PvP 3) Had a hope in hell of winning that PvP anyway [By being good enough, on the ball, not outnumbered, and at a comparible warding situation. And, in this case 4) The fight involves a enchantment mage, and a non mage.


There are also further was to fine tune the system. For example, make clarity breachable, but add a cooldown on casting Enchantment spells. Say, 3 to 4 rounds.
Unless you're a Feylock. Or perhaps also if you're a Feylock. I'll cry, but it might be for the best?

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:58 am

Rwby wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:35 am
I'm really not sure I see the line where by getting killed by enchantment spells is ~less~ fun.

Get killed by a death spell - Fugue.
Get knocked down by a weapon master - Yes, you can technically RP, but it may take so few seconds to die, you can't type anything of substance.
Get frozen by enchantment - Both you and your opponent know you're going to be held for a while, so you can engage in roleplay and dialogue prior to your death. You also get the neat option to surrender, the Subdual mode of mage casting. You also get to 'Prays' out of it, which you can't with either of the other methods of swift death.

Given the choice, I'd rather die to enchantment every time.

Let's face it, people PvPing are rarely looking to build characters that make fights long and even. And if you are looking to do that, you have the option of.. Not casting enchantment and hitting them with your staff?
That's how I'm seeing it too.

To counter the methods of 'instant-kill'
Death spells = Wards build/gear for fort
KD = build/gear for disc
Ench = No investment required. Just type -pray or drink your clarity potion that cost you 100g or whatever.

Shouldn't the answer be, build and gear for will, or at the very least have a mind ward up? Yes, it can be breached. You have to be able to lose sometimes. It's part of the game.

Maybe the problem here is that your character has 8 wisdom. 8!!! As far as their strength of will goes, it is pathetically weak and crippled. You could have put more points there but you didn't. A specialized power build was chosen over a balanced build, and mechanics were mistakenly built and balanced around that.

Your character needs a flaw and if you've powerbuilt yourself up to be a god in one aspect you SHOULD have flaws in others (reflex? will?). That's how others will defeat you. That seems fair and balanced to me.

Maybe we would see less powerbuilds running around if everyone was allowed to have a weakness.

This may be why WM is considered OP. Not because they are mechanically OP, but because they have a mechanical method out of anything without having to sacrifice a single thing, and remaining optimal.

What about from the mages perspective? They're forced to take class levels in something they may not even want to and invest max points into a skill and then skill focus feat on top of it. That's a ridiculous thing to expect someone to do on an RP server. That's some arena server level expectations there.

Every time I stop to think about it, I think ... All mind wards should be breachable, clarity shouldn't be something you can drink after the fact. And once that has been done, then a significant buff to enchantment as well. Then it would begin to resemble balanced.

Also why isn't death ward breachable? Seems like it should be. Doesn't seem fair to slap yourself with a wand and make yourself immune to a whole school of magic. Maybe RP fearing the necromancer/enchanter because they're terrifying to your low will character.

*One million edits. I suck at wording.*
Last edited by Dr_Hazard89 on Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:04 am, edited 4 times in total.
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