Arelith

A few months have gone by since the rework (nerf) of dragon shape. Perhaps we can discuss the current state of the feat?

I'll start. Looking just at the rework and the stats of dragon shape I must say that whoever did the thing had a clear view of how to make additions and reduce its raw power and synergies with monk (shudder) without making it toothless or useless. Even added a few nice things such as a metallic dragon skin, a nice new breath weapon, a bit of variation between the shapes etc., reduced requirements and a way to obtain the feat IG somewhere (or so I hear).

Looking at dragon shape as part of a druid or shifter's arsenal the picture is different. It seems not useless but redundant. The current druid meta clearly favours the pure druid because of the awesome monolithic shapes. These are much more powerful than the draconic shapes. Better stats, damage, and perks like elemental immunity, regeneration, high damage etc. They are also infinite uses per day while dragon shape is 3/day.

The only characters that might benefit from dragon shape are those who multiclass and thus loose out on monoliths. There is, however, not a lot of possible synergies other than the ability to gain discipline and 4 apr or some tumble ac, extra sneak attack etc. No ways to really enhance the dragons.

Altso the DCs on the standard breath weapon is appaling. DC 23 on a druid with 42 wisdom.

I would like to see dragonshape put on a cooldown, simply to avoid door issues with the huge model size.

No comments on the balance side of things yet, as I’m still leveling my dragonshaper.

Everyone will laugh, but I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of monk synergy returned. The changes arbitrarily ruined a good and seniscal class combination. Currently, if you want to enhance the melee potential of dragonshape, now you are looking at some combinations that are at much stranger. Instead of synergizing with a class devoted to unarmed combat, now...oddly...being a knight synergizes well with Druid! Enter Ser Green Thumb.

I admit bringing back any sort of AC would probably be a bad idea, but allowing unarmed attacks to synergize isn't really out of hand. Besides, what is five attacks on a 19-20x2 crit range (assuming you throw the improved crit: unarmed feat toward the build) when you can currently get four? Even the impressively stated dragons don't have anywhere near the damage output of warriors, and, as always, you give up all spellcasting to be good at melee on a temporary basis.

So, for my money, I wouldn't mind seeing the attack turned back into an unarmed attack instead of a magic staff. This would enable some minor feat use for everyone and make multiclass monks work again. I also wouldn't mind seeing some sort of DR return to the form as well as something in the realm of detection. You are just not a dragon without these. I actually got fairly wounded fighting GNOLLS (the mob ones) for heavens sake. I think it is all a tad under-tuned right now.

Even the impressively stated dragons don't have anywhere near the damage output of warriors

I thought dragon race + dragon shape = 80 something strength

My comments were directed to the shape not the race, and the shape in all cases overwrites physicals rather than adding them.

The most impressive dragon strength is the Red with 56. This should be +23 to damage? Again, this on a weapon with a crit of 20 and a x2 multiplier (the Red also supplying +5ab and +1d10 damage). Thus, an amazing 5% of the time you can double this damage. While the AB can get somewhat nice, almost any mid level warrior is better for damage. I have lvl 13-15s that easily outclass this.

Quick maybe faulty math but, 1d6 magic staff + 1d10 bludgeoning +23 strength = 39 damage on the best roll. Granted, you can probably up this by as many as 5-6 points with some crazy combination of gear + epic transmutation + empower spell, but still...20x2 with no essence possibilities ever since it functions as a creature weapon.

Any pure druid will have three attacks per round and a combat dip class will have four. I thus argue for at least returning the shape to unarmed status, which allows the possibility of a feat making this weapon into a 19-20 weapon and synergizing with the other druid shapes. I hardly think this puts them over the top, but it does address their current under-tuned feel.

Obviously this would put monk back on the table as a good class combination, but, these and all combat-tuned dips automatically loose out on the substantial pure druid perks of monolith shape, an extra epic feat, certain spell enhancements, and the end run animal companions.

You also have full casting, dragon knight, hellball/ruin, other summons, tons of regen, bear buddy, SOV, utility spells, etc

Why do you need to be equal to a dedicated melee when you have all that other crap going on?

I'm not absolutely certain if I remember well, but I THINK the breath attack DC should have some form of scaling...

I'd just like Shifters to be able to take advantage of the reduced WIS investment to get Dragonshape instead of having to go full 30 WIS for it ;_;

Cortex wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:26 am

I'm not absolutely certain if I remember well, but I THINK the breath attack DC should have some form of scaling...

The new breath attack for bronze dragon does scale (yay dc 30). The old ones don’t

The old ones only scale with shifter. Something to re-visit at some point.

I do agree that it is less a matter of Dragonshape being useless and more a matter of it being overshadowed by monolith form. It is a known issue, though I can offer you no promises as to when it will be looked at.

Good to know. Here's a few things you might consider once the timing feels right with the aim of making dragon shapes (DS) useful instead of vying for power against the monoliths. Pick and choose

- discipline boon at druid lvl 28 while in DS
- enhancing the breath ability to give ways to reliably damage crowds og critters (perhaps inspired by dragon disciple's breath)
- give combat feats like imp kd, imp disarm, expertise
- give each variation of DS a bonus immunity to either slashing, piercing og bludgeoning
- higher detection skills if not true seeing
- a wing buffet like ability
- wounding
- crit mulitplier x3 or massive crit
- a fear aura for mass debuff (not mass running around)
- a howl similar to gnolls on cd
- shifter accces via 25 wis
- a few spell like abilities (acid fog for green dragon, elemental shield for red dragon, spell mantle for bronze or...)
- a little damge soak that will not stack with other sources but just... the survivability is not great for an epic feat that's 3/day and has a problem with doorways.
- creature weapon instead of the magical staff. This would reenable monk dip for UAB but it would still mean saying no to monoliths so I'm not sure we'd see a lot of monk/druids either way
- a sort of soft bonus scaling from lvl 25+ (ab, damage, temp hp)

Why do druids, one of the most powerful solo-classes in the game, who -- if combined at all with rogue (allowing them to open rune-chests that they can solo the content up to) ... need buffs for the one form that allows them to multi-class into rogue and completely skip the need for other classes and participants in the hardest content in the game?

My weapon-master character solo's level 17 content. And some of the stuff in there, if cast in a certain combination, can result in her dying -- but druids with some of these changes you're discussing are capable of running through Maur in The Lowerdark AND opening the rune-chests routinely by multiclassing into rogue.

The form that is secondary to Monoliths -- at least by the mechanics I've seen -- is secondary for good reason.

This thread is meant as feedback to the rework of dragon shape. Not a discussion of whether the class "deserves" a buff. The DEVs are welcome to ignore this at their own discretion as the druid class is in a very good place right now. This particular feat is not in a good place but a druid does fine without it.

Mixing druid with rogue does not seem very optimal though. Any multiclass weakens a druid these days as monoliths are the way to go and a druid dip certainly does not make the dragon shape feat much better at this point, nor does it enhance anything else a druid has going on compared to what you loose by dipping.

Sorry about the state of your weapon master. Seems there might be adjustments in your gear and/or tactics that could make it more viable.

What if the Dragon Shape for Druid was restored to its tremendous power of days of old, but turned into a Major Reward. -then you have it as a 5% chance of even getting the opportunity to unlock it's awesomeness. -then with some mild DM oversight to make sure it isn't abused (which might be fairly easy since the total number would be few, and DM's could easily keep a simple list of players actively possessing it. -then we have the possibility of dragon-shape druid/Archdruid/Hero/Villain.

The Kriv wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:31 pm

What if the Dragon Shape for Druid was restored to its tremendous power of days of old, but turned into a Major Reward. -then you have it as a 5% chance of even getting the opportunity to unlock it's awesomeness. -then with some mild DM oversight to make sure it isn't abused (which might be fairly easy since the total number would be few, and DM's could easily keep a simple list of players actively possessing it. -then we have the possibility of dragon-shape druid/Archdruid/Hero/Villain.

An extremely powerful 5% Dragon was the idea behind the old Dragon subrace, which was deliberately removed for good reason. It's likely not a good idea to return to that dynamic.

yellowcateyes wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:42 pm

The Kriv wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:31 pm

What if the Dragon Shape for Druid was restored to its tremendous power of days of old, but turned into a Major Reward. -then you have it as a 5% chance of even getting the opportunity to unlock it's awesomeness. -then with some mild DM oversight to make sure it isn't abused (which might be fairly easy since the total number would be few, and DM's could easily keep a simple list of players actively possessing it. -then we have the possibility of dragon-shape druid/Archdruid/Hero/Villain.

An extremely powerful 5% Dragon was the idea behind the old Dragon subrace, which was deliberately removed for good reason. It's likely not a good idea to return to that dynamic.

I think the Dragon subrace on Arelith was starting to affect the server in a way it wasn't intended to, which was why it was removed to begin with. Where a Dragon-Shape Capable Druid wouldn't be activated until that character became an epic level character anyway, which brings an altogether different dynamic as a reward. Most folk might not be interested in redeeming a 5% on something they're not going to even get access to for literal RL months after character creation... which means likely it would be in the possession of someone who REALLY wanted to play a Dragon Shape Druid... something quite different than a DRAGON subrace PC.

The Kriv wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:21 pm

yellowcateyes wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:42 pm

The Kriv wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:31 pm

What if the Dragon Shape for Druid was restored to its tremendous power of days of old, but turned into a Major Reward. -then you have it as a 5% chance of even getting the opportunity to unlock it's awesomeness. -then with some mild DM oversight to make sure it isn't abused (which might be fairly easy since the total number would be few, and DM's could easily keep a simple list of players actively possessing it. -then we have the possibility of dragon-shape druid/Archdruid/Hero/Villain.

An extremely powerful 5% Dragon was the idea behind the old Dragon subrace, which was deliberately removed for good reason. It's likely not a good idea to return to that dynamic.

I think the Dragon subrace on Arelith was starting to affect the server in a way it wasn't intended to, which was why it was removed to begin with. Where a Dragon-Shape Capable Druid wouldn't be activated until that character became an epic level character anyway, which brings an altogether different dynamic as a reward. Most folk might not be interested in redeeming a 5% on something they're not going to even get access to for literal RL months after character creation... which means likely it would be in the possession of someone who REALLY wanted to play a Dragon Shape Druid... something quite different than a DRAGON subrace PC.

I think you're underestimating the amount of people willing to use 5% rolls on increased mechanical power. Getting access to an extremely powerful end-game shape that no one else could get? Oh yeah, people would take that and lord it over others in PvP engagements.

There's been 5%s in the past that involved nothing but mechanical power.

I honestly find the idea of special subraces (now) quite boring so honestly if I ever received a 5% I'd be asking for something character sheet or item related just because subraces don't interest me anymore other than what's currently available... also for expediencies sake for all involved as asking for a new subrace might end up being an not insignificant amount of coding for someone (like Vampires for example).

I also don't really have a lot of faith in my ability to convincingly RP something that would be 'quite alien' to a Human-ish psychology. *shrug*

Cortex wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:05 pm

There's been 5%s in the past that involved nothing but mechanical power.

Tiefling comes to mind as well. It's your race with +2 to con and +2 to two other stats via bloodline and gift, plus your base races racial perks.

As somebody who has played a druid for the last seven months. And uses Dragonshape a lot, I cant honestly see a reason to buff it further. Only thing I would possibly do is buff the breath DC to scale with Druid levels.

Its how you use the Form, Its by no means weak. But it should not be a Crutch to your build.

Personally I love the Dragonshape rework. But wouldent mind some options (re-skin options) for Gold/Copper for Red/Green, only flavour wise though.

Mechanically Dragonshape is in a strong place right now if you know how to use it right. and dont just rely on it to win everything

Why would ever use it over elemental shapes though? Because of AC ?

Man if somebody told me druids would end up being the bogeymen, i'd feed them with grass

Mythic wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:14 am

As somebody who has played a druid for the last seven months. And uses Dragonshape a lot, I cant honestly see a reason to buff it further. Only thing I would possibly do is buff the breath DC to scale with Druid levels.

Its how you use the Form, Its by no means weak. But it should not be a Crutch to your build.

Personally I love the Dragonshape rework. But wouldent mind some options (re-skin options) for Gold/Copper for Red/Green, only flavour wise though.

Mechanically Dragonshape is in a strong place right now if you know how to use it right. and dont just rely on it to win everything

Yeah. Adding a -dragon that works like a -stream allowing you to pick your color would be good. I don't get why so many forest friends rampage around as a CE red dragon.

Jagel wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:19 pm

Why would ever use it over elemental shapes though? Because of AC ?

Air ele can get almost 80 ac with perma haste to boot.