"A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

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Cortex
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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by Cortex » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:55 pm

What is the point then? Many examples are mismatching to the topic. Using your post, dominantdrowess, since it is the most recent one:

•You're using a level 30 as the example you can't solo. You can't even take writs anymore, or have a need to get EXP, only gold.

•I am not familiar with the UD quests, but I believe that just like the surface, the UD has easy quests that just involve exploring (aka transitioning) to X areas. They should be do-able by anyone in that level range and faster than other quests, unless they built something akin to a "RP social build", in which case they make poor adventurers to begin with. (This point has equally been ignored, I might add!)

•The level limit is 3 above the max level of the writ, not the character taking it. dejapes is still working to make them more transparent, but as an example, if a quest is available up to level 17(which would be unlocked around level 13), level 20s can still aid you, that's up to a 7 level difference between the two characters. A level limit of 9-10 might as well be non existant, since people 14 levels above would be able to follow them around. The current level limit is not narrow at all.

•Poor timezone and "solo" scenarios are not made worse. If they cannot complete a hard quest by themselves, there should be easy quests available, see a few points above. If you want to help lower levels as an epic, you can just take them to an appropriate level(for the high level) dungeon. If you can't do that because your character is also a poor solor and instead focused on PvP power, that was a conscious decision. Like I mentioned a few posts ago, one of my current characters is also hot garbage solo, but I make do with other stuff, be it lasso capturing, easy quests, or doing RP while draining from the adventure EXP bank.

•The one point I'll concede is that there are a few dungeons with a very wide level range that extend to higher levels, such as the Frostwood Barbarians and Slime Caverns. It'd be interesting if some quests had a wider level limit for that purpose only.
:)

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by thingsicantdo » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:08 pm

dominantdrowess wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:23 pm
That's exactly it. They latch onto one part, and ignore the rest of it-- and keep knocking the same point down over and over like a strawman argument, while ignoring the fact that players levels are not evenly distributed enough on the server to support a quest system this restricted durring all hours and SOME players only have 1 or 2 hours PER DAY (OR LESS) to play -- durring the same time-zone pe... ... .. ...
welcome to arguing on the internet. where you think you have a logical connection between two things, but someone else can say "no, i don't see it." this is one of those cases.

stopping the writ system from benefiting people who party up with significantly higher level characters does not stop people from role playing with them or adventuring with them. i don't believe you understand the wants/needs of people who are very time poor on this server, because as the person you described (one or two hours a day player), i hated running into high level characters in my adventures at low levels, and since i don't see the writ system as mandatory, i don't have a problem with higher level characters at high levels (though i can sympathize in your desire not to inconvenience low level characters by hanging out when they're trying to do the writ, but that's why it's implemented).

as for the reasonable (and valid) point of late teens to early epic levels, and their equivalent powers... there just isn't a good way around it. a line has to be drawn somewhere, and i don't disagree with where it is now, though it's certainly not 'ham-fisted,' in any sense of the word

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by DM Atropos » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:10 pm

Moreover, do remember that Arelith's dungeons are not meant to be soloed. They are hard to solo, purposely, for a reason.

We want you to party up. We want to see you roleplaying while you adventure. The fact that you cannot simply have someone walk through, clear out the area, and you get the XP for it does not change that fact. (While, in fact, as it's been pointed out, you can.) You're supposed to find a group of likeminded people, and do so together. That's the point of most of the writs, as that is the point of most dungeons here. (Exploration writs mostly aside)

There are certainly servers where you can never need another person. There are certainly both builds and players here who can effortlessly solo most things. But that is not their intent. You can still do plenty of "training RP" if you desire. None of us will stop you, your RPB will certainly not suffer, you just won't get much XP out of it, but everyone already knows that.

Cortex's points are well-thought out and should probably be paid more heed than they currently are being paid.
What is woven will be.

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by dominantdrowess » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:38 pm

Cortex wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:55 pm
What is the point then? Many examples are mismatching to the topic. Using your post, dominantdrowess, since it is the most recent one:

•You're using a level 30 as the example you can't solo. You can't even take writs anymore, or have a need to get EXP, only gold.

•I am not familiar with the UD quests, but I believe that just like the surface, the UD has easy quests that just involve exploring (aka transitioning) to X areas. They should be do-able by anyone in that level range and faster than other quests, unless they built something akin to a "RP social build", in which case they make poor adventurers to begin with. (This point has equally been ignored, I might add!)

•The level limit is 3 above the max level of the writ, not the character taking it. dejapes is still working to make them more transparent, but as an example, if a quest is available up to level 17(which would be unlocked around level 13), level 20s can still aid you, that's up to a 7 level difference between the two characters. A level limit of 9-10 might as well be non existant, since people 14 levels above would be able to follow them around. The current level limit is not narrow at all.

•Poor timezone and "solo" scenarios are not made worse. If they cannot complete a hard quest by themselves, there should be easy quests available, see a few points above. If you want to help lower levels as an epic, you can just take them to an appropriate level(for the high level) dungeon. If you can't do that because your character is also a poor solor and instead focused on PvP power, that was a conscious decision. Like I mentioned a few posts ago, one of my current characters is also hot garbage solo, but I make do with other stuff, be it lasso capturing, easy quests, or doing RP while draining from the adventure EXP bank.

•The one point I'll concede is that there are a few dungeons with a very wide level range that extend to higher levels, such as the Frostwood Barbarians and Slime Caverns. It'd be interesting if some quests had a wider level limit for that purpose only.
1) I am using it as an example, because it shows a wide-range of character arch-types that are afflicted by this change. There is a percentage of characters on Arelith who at epic level can't even kill The Essential Warrior in The Cage. These people need to be accounted for when you cut off their questing ability, or get them pushed out of groups because they're "too high level". These people exist -- and are the ones who need the quest system the most. Power-grinders are gonna power-grind... they'll do their 3 quests, and then resume whacking mobs over the head... but the non-optimal people who aren't power-gaming are the ones who need to not get pushed out by ending up too-high level. Some people are calling them "social" -- but their level doesn't show their ability to influence the dungeon -- and they still gotta level up too.

Why does the NPC care when he's passing out gold how you got the Orc-Lord killed? If you can influence a legendary hero to come along and "help a brother out" -- shouldn't you get paid for solving the problem you were contracted to find a solution for? As someone else pointed out: This is an RP server. Penalize my experience by ECL, but "gimi mah gold".

2) Those quests for exploration are not available at every level range. One does not automatically appear when one disappears. The quests, as soon as you're a few levels beyond it -- disappear -- I experienced this on Surface while leveling my spellsword.

3) I am not sure how you're calculating that at all when I'm talking about hard limits-- and you're saying a level cap of 10 ... would somehow allow people 14 levels above the player to assist; but by my math... 14 is higher than 10? I think we're talking about separate level caps-- when I'm talking about party-cap being 10. Not the range of the quest.

4) Poor Time-Zone and Solo Players are totally worse off if they FELL BEHIND THEIR LEVELING PARTNERS because they were offline for a week (a reasonable amount of time by the way). Odds are, they could already be behind if they were that person who was only on a few hours per day up until that.

5) That I feel is a relatively important one. There are zones, with bosses inside them that -- if you aren't min-maxed, are totally going to eat you -- even outside the level cap for them. Alternatives need to exist to these quests if the range isn't expanded.

Whatever you guys are trying to accomplish with this -- it is not currently tuned properly and is resulting in a lot of RP-disrupting meta and tells asking people to leave party -- and I'm not talking about level 30's or even my own character. This thing has seven pages of responses in three days. It isn't going to go away.
Last edited by dominantdrowess on Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:59 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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TroubledWaters
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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by TroubledWaters » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:50 pm

My level 23 just stumbled on a group of mostly 19-20s, and it looked to be the start of a great adventure together!

Nope. I had to leave the party because I was blocking everyone's progress and then uhh... went off to solo, because that's really all that's immediately available.

This is really un-fun.

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by Richørd » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:03 pm

TroubledWaters wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:50 pm
My level 23 just stumbled on a group of mostly 19-20s, and it looked to be the start of a great adventure together!

Nope. I had to leave the party because I was blocking everyone's progress and then uhh... went off to solo, because that's really all that's immediately available.

This is really un-fun.
I had multiple encounters , after these changes occured , where I thought "you know, I might aswell help that fellow get his writ finished. after all that orc warchief isn't going to kill himself anytime soon".
But what you said is similar to what happened to me.

One question that I would have to people like Cortex that keep arguing in favor of these changes :
Have there ever been serious amounts of complaints about high-level characters helping lower level characters with their writs?
I would be surprised if there've been just half as many complaints about that as there have been about these recent changes.

TL;DR: Was there ever any feedback BEFORE these changes that suggested capping the level difference for player characters when doing writs?

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:16 pm

Richørd wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:03 pm
One question that I would have to people like Cortex that keep arguing in favor of these changes :
Have there ever been serious amounts of complaints about high-level characters helping lower level characters with their writs?
I would be surprised if there've been just half as many complaints about that as there have been about these recent changes.

TL;DR: Was there ever any feedback BEFORE these changes that suggested capping the level difference for player characters when doing writs?
Judging by the Feedback section on the forums, the answer would be resounding no.

All signs point to this change being made for subjective reasons, based on opinion and perhaps someone being very butthurt.
I can't speak for the people responsible, but seeing as how little transparency there has been regarding this (not even mentioned in the update thread), that's all we have to go on.


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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by Rwby » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:21 pm

The fact that this thread is the longest active thread in the forum and has persisted in largely the same tone with a variety of different posters speaks to how keenly the issue is felt.

While I respect and am greatful for a DM chiming in, I would really appreciate some insight from the Development team on this.

The example of the above, where a level 24+ character is going to nuke all the 18/19/20 level people doing writs does mean as soon as you hit 24 you're a social praiah to going on adventures with anyone below 21, which is terrible because they've none nothing wrong. Players shouldn't have to chose between XP and roleplay, the roleplay should be what gives them XP!

Sorry my knight, but you swing your sword to well for me. We must defeat Earl Manfred alone, you're not allowed, else we won't get paid for it, because the Registrar is really picky about highly skilled people helping clense the land of evil does not a good story make.

And isn't that why we're here? To tell stories? How does this change benefit telling them?

I'm certainly not advocating it's the end of time, or that it stops us roleplaying, etc etc.
Remember in the example above it just takes one player to be unhappy with losing their writ XP for it to be an issue.

Also it creates the bizzare IC disjoint where if they _do_ let the level 23 character join them, and then they slay Earl Mannfred and return to the Agent, the Agent just goes 'Shurg. He's not dead. No quest for you!' ... How is that resolveable in character here?

As others have mentioned this feels like we are straying dangerously into MMO territory. Please don't let Arelith become a game. I don't want to win. We're a roleplaying server. I want to tell stories and create a fantasy world, and I want to share that experience with other players and I want the enviroment to encourage and support that experience and that immersion. I've always, always believed that's how the Dev team, past and present has felt too. Has that changed?

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Cortex
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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by Cortex » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:23 pm

1. When I say social build characters, I refer specifically to their builds. Builds that were gimped in favor of something else even if it's purely thematic. Using the Cage as an example is also misleading, since there are multiple limitations there and it favors 1v1 tanky builds. I cannot imagine what functional build can't handle any single quest or dungeon of their level range, if someone's picked a hard to PvE build or a harder to play build, it is on them if quest difficulty scales up.

On the topic of turning in quests... How an area without guard NPCs can kick out exiled people? How does every banker know who you are and how much gold you have in your name? How do Speedies instantly teleport to their target? How is Laurick in multiple places at once? Answer: It's, ultimately, a game. Pursuing realism for the sake of realism is pointless.

2. dejapes was kind enough to provide me this list of exploration quests on the surface, covering multiple gaps:
Outskirts Patrol (Cordor): 1-10
Map the Jungle (Crow's): 6-12
Scout the Forest (Bendir): 8-15
Hinterlands of Burrowhome(Bendir): 8-15
Skull Crags Patrol (Guld): 10-18
Frost-Bitten Hinterlands (Brog): 13-19

3. Like I said, the level limit of 3 applies to the level of the writ, not of the characters. That means if a writ has a max level of 15 for people to take(I believe FoD quest has that max), it means characters up to level 18 can assist you. Even if you just unlocked the quest at level 11 or so. If the level limit was increased to 9 as you suggested, level 23s could stroll about the FoD and still help people of the 11-15 level range through quests.

4. Falling behind in levels due to inactivity isn't a timezone issue. It is true they'll have a harder time finding someone else to party with, but if all else fails they still have the exploration quests, among other possibly easy ones.

@Richord, I cannot speak for feedback or reports of this prior to the change, but what I can attest is that the writ system was not designed with high levels helping through them.

Lastly, to the arguement that because many people say something, it must be true... not to mention majority of the posts in this thread tend to be the same people, myself included.
:)

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by TroubledWaters » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:30 pm

I guess the big difference between the writ system changes and the bankers is that the bankers all know your name and help you out in order to increase enjoyment of the game at the expense of some realism. The writ system changes make the game less fun and punish the ability of the entire playerbase to group and RP with other people in exchange for slowing the powerleveling of a few people.

It feels punitive, which can be upsetting for a lot of people who feel they haven't done anything wrong.

I get that the system is based on the max level of the writ and not the difference between party members, but that doesn't help level 23 and up players that much.

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by dominantdrowess » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:30 pm

Rwby wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:21 pm
The fact that this thread is the longest active thread in the forum and has persisted in largely the same tone with a variety of different posters speaks to how keenly the issue is felt.

While I respect and am greatful for a DM chiming in, I would really appreciate some insight from the Development team on this.

The example of the above, where a level 24+ character is going to nuke all the 18/19/20 level people doing writs does mean as soon as you hit 24 you're a social praiah to going on adventures with anyone below 21, which is terrible because they've none nothing wrong. Players shouldn't have to chose between XP and roleplay, the roleplay should be what gives them XP!

Sorry my knight, but you swing your sword to well for me. We must defeat Earl Manfred alone, you're not allowed, else we won't get paid for it, because the Registrar is really picky about highly skilled people helping clense the land of evil does not a good story make.

And isn't that why we're here? To tell stories? How does this change benefit telling them?

I'm certainly not advocating it's the end of time, or that it stops us roleplaying, etc etc.
Remember in the example above it just takes one player to be unhappy with losing their writ XP for it to be an issue.

Also it creates the bizzare IC disjoint where if they _do_ let the level 23 character join them, and then they slay Earl Mannfred and return to the Agent, the Agent just goes 'Shurg. He's not dead. No quest for you!' ... How is that resolveable in character here?

As others have mentioned this feels like we are straying dangerously into MMO territory. Please don't let Arelith become a game. I don't want to win. We're a roleplaying server. I want to tell stories and create a fantasy world, and I want to share that experience with other players and I want the enviroment to encourage and support that experience and that immersion. I've always, always believed that's how the Dev team, past and present has felt too. Has that changed?
The DM catchphrase of "Level Doesn't Matter" is officially dead.

Edit: Cortex is correct on appeal to Mass-Agreement~
Last edited by dominantdrowess on Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by Cortex » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:32 pm

TroubledWaters wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:30 pm
I guess the big difference between the writ system changes and the bankers is that the bankers all know your name and help you out in order to increase enjoyment of the game at the expense of some realism. The writ system changes make the game less fun and punish the ability of the entire playerbase to group and RP with other people in exchange for slowing the powerleveling of a few people.

It feels punitive, which can be upsetting for a lot of people who feel they haven't done anything wrong.

I get that the system is based on the max level of the writ and not the difference between party members, but that doesn't help level 23 and up players that much.
You could alternatively go to a level 21+ dungeon and make much better exp and gold with that party you used as an example.

edit: The DM catchphrase of "Level Doesn't Matter" never existed. Levels always mattered for getting EXP, it's literally what defines how much EXP you get.
:)

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by TroubledWaters » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:37 pm

Yeah, that works for grinding together, but this group left town to specifically to do a writ and after stumbling upon them I was not able to join them and help out, which is something I felt my character would do.

My RP was determined by the level difference and writ system, which was an unpleasant experience.

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by Dragonovith » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:41 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:10 pm
DM Atropos wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:57 pm
Not letting a 30 be your meatshield is not the same thing as "being required to solo".
Just don't be in the group as the lowbie you're helping do writs with and keep them on -guard. Make sure they act like it's dota and last hit.

Bada bing bada boom. This is whats happening now.
So, when you consider that, how effective was this writ update? Did it change anything at all or did it just add an inconvenience? The player with the writ still can be helped by their higher level buddy, and people like TroubledWaters have to live with this:
TroubledWaters wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:50 pm
My level 23 just stumbled on a group of mostly 19-20s, and it looked to be the start of a great adventure together!

Nope. I had to leave the party because I was blocking everyone's progress and then uhh... went off to solo, because that's really all that's immediately available.

This is really un-fun.
In my opinion, I'd explore other solutions instead of the one put in place by this update. Unless someone changes my mind, the effectiveness of this change seems quite doubtful to me

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by Cortex » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:45 pm

What if you saw a party of level 19s as a level 23, heading to X dungeon without any specific writ, and they rejected you based on your level? That didn't require a writ system to happen. The difference is that one is a forced limitation. That is also covered in my earlier point that I conceded about a few dungeons having a larger level gap.

Edit: When an appropriate leveled party is doing X dungeon, and a +6 levels above character shows up and offer their help, is it not uncommon for a flurry of tells storm about as everyone tries to figure out a good IC way to dissuade the high level guy from screwing with their grind trip, and are more often than not thrilled when the high level leaves.
Last edited by Cortex on Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
:)

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by TroubledWaters » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:47 pm

In this situation, we all still get a decent amount of XP and gold for leveling in a dungeon together, along with good RP.

Writs are objectives that are set out in advance that my character's presence blocks the progress of completing, prompting an OOC rejection from parties if I join if I do not bow out for OOC reasons myself.

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by Richørd » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:51 pm

Cortex wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:23 pm
Lastly, to the arguement that because many people say something, it must be true... not to mention majority of the posts in this thread tend to be the same people, myself included.
I was not going to add anymore to this discussion since everything that needed to be said has already been said but ...

Seriously? Are you going to imply that -everyone- who belongs to the mass of people that say "We don't like this change" is factually wrong?
Because that's all the "argumentum ad popolum" stands for in this case. You are putting your arguments on a pedestal with the engraving "This is factually correct and is proven to be able to stand up against the wrong believes of the masses" while we are debating about a mechanical change on Arelith.

This isn't a field of science. It's Arelith, a server all of us love spending our free time on.

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by Scurvy Cur » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:54 pm

troubledwaters wrote:In this situation, we all still get a decent amount of XP and gold for leveling in a dungeon together, along with good RP.

Writs are objectives that are set out in advance that my character's presence blocks the progress of completing, prompting an OOC rejection from parties if I join if I do not bow out for OOC reasons myself.
Top
You're deluding yourself.

You may get a bit of XP, but your presence probably reduces theirs between 30 and 40%. And they are most likely sincerely wishing you'd go away before you do this to them.

If you want to go do something with them, the right way to go about it is to drop something like:

"Yours seems a capable group. With my assistance, I bet we could tackle [insert greater challenge here], which will prove more lucrative to all involved".

Not

"I see that you have set out to tackle this challenge. Let me insert myself into your trip and nerf your XP".

The former has the added benefit of letting them gracefully say that they'd rather not have your help, or that they'd rather you stick around to help them with their current challenge. It changes the dynamic from intrusion to offer, and puts the choice back with the other party.


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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by Cortex » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:56 pm

Richørd wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:51 pm
I was not going to add anymore to this discussion since everything that needed to be said has already been said but ...

Seriously? Are you going to imply that -everyone- who belongs to the mass of people that say "We don't like this change" is factually wrong?
Because that's all the "argumentum ad popolum" stands for in this case. You are putting your arguments on a pedestal with the engraving "This is factually correct and is proven to be able to stand up against the wrong believes of the masses" while we are debating about a mechanical change on Arelith.

This isn't a field of science. It's Arelith, a server all of us love spending our free time on.
You misunderstand me, I am saying that the repeated statement that "because a lot of people dislike this change, it is without question a bad change" is factually incorrect. It, however, does not invalidate other points made in this thread, all of which I've been trying to address fairly even though I've no obligation to do so. On the same vein, I do not imply I am anymore correct on any other logic other than what I've posted in this thread.
:)

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by TimeAdept » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:03 pm

For what it's worth, in the Underdark, the only patrol quest was the Stonehold hike (which can still be pretty deadly if you get tagged by a Medium tracker or two), which to my knowledge is still broken. Everything else requires killing stuff, and the UD areas, while substantially more XP lucrative, are also generally more difficult than their surface counterparts, in my experience. There's no exploration writs down there, so if you can't handle the area you're going to, you have no writs to do.

However, unlike the surface writs, UD writs seem to have larger writ-ranges. So it's primarily the surface where we're seeing issues, with many more smaller ranged writs, vs writs all from one spot with generally larger ranges.

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Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by TroubledWaters » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:12 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:54 pm
You're deluding yourself.

You may get a bit of XP, but your presence probably reduces theirs between 30 and 40%. And they are most likely sincerely wishing you'd go away before you do this to them.

If you want to go do something with them, the right way to go about it is to drop something like:

"Yours seems a capable group. With my assistance, I bet we could tackle [insert greater challenge here], which will prove more lucrative to all involved".

Not

"I see that you have set out to tackle this challenge. Let me insert myself into your trip and nerf your XP".

The former has the added benefit of letting them gracefully say that they'd rather not have your help, or that they'd rather you stick around to help them with their current challenge. It changes the dynamic from intrusion to offer, and puts the choice back with the other party.
I don't believe I am deluded, as I have partied with people under my level in the tribal caves north of Brog and they told me they were still getting good XP regardless of the level difference. I think dungeons, which many writs are for, are generally more difficult and give more XP.

I'll also remind you that the issue I brought up originally was that my character could not help out a group he met, which is something I felt that he would do. My IC actions were determined by the OOC system of me not wanting to ruin their writ, which was an unpleasant experience.
Last edited by TroubledWaters on Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rwby
Posts: 915
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:37 pm

Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by Rwby » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:22 pm

Cortex wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:45 pm
What if you saw a party of level 19s as a level 23, heading to X dungeon without any specific writ, and they rejected you based on your level? That didn't require a writ system to happen. The difference is that one is a forced limitation. That is also covered in my earlier point that I conceded about a few dungeons having a larger level gap.

Edit: When an appropriate leveled party is doing X dungeon, and a +6 levels above character shows up and offer their help, is it not uncommon for a flurry of tells storm about as everyone tries to figure out a good IC way to dissuade the high level guy from screwing with their grind trip, and are more often than not thrilled when the high level leaves.
I mean, I everyone's experiences are different and all. But I've been here for ten years, and that's never happened.
That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it's certainly not all prevailing. Maybe everyone just doesn't involve me in these flurries of tells where we bitch about other players...

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BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:57 pm

TroubledWaters wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:50 pm
My level 23 just stumbled on a group of mostly 19-20s, and it looked to be the start of a great adventure together!

Nope. I had to leave the party because I was blocking everyone's progress and then uhh... went off to solo, because that's really all that's immediately available.

This is really un-fun.
How would you rate the role play that took place when you realized you were mechanically hurting those you had met and had to leave
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thingsicantdo
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:58 am

Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by thingsicantdo » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:58 pm

Rwby wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:22 pm
I mean, I everyone's experiences are different and all. But I've been here for ten years, and that's never happened.
That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it's certainly not all prevailing. Maybe everyone just doesn't involve me in these flurries of tells where we bitch about other players...
well, yeah... dane cook said it best (opinions on him notwithstanding) "every group of friends has a karen. if your group of friends doesn't, guess what? you're the karen."

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: "A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

Post by Nitro » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:17 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:16 pm
Richørd wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:03 pm
One question that I would have to people like Cortex that keep arguing in favor of these changes :
Have there ever been serious amounts of complaints about high-level characters helping lower level characters with their writs?
I would be surprised if there've been just half as many complaints about that as there have been about these recent changes.

TL;DR: Was there ever any feedback BEFORE these changes that suggested capping the level difference for player characters when doing writs?
Judging by the Feedback section on the forums, the answer would be resounding no.

All signs point to this change being made for subjective reasons, based on opinion and perhaps someone being very butthurt.
I can't speak for the people responsible, but seeing as how little transparency there has been regarding this (not even mentioned in the update thread), that's all we have to go on.
Nice, I see we're reaching Ad-hominem now.

On-topic, I entirely support the reason why this change was implemented, because it's super frustrating to go to a dungeon alone or as a group for some juicy XP, only to find that someone or several someones has their high level buddy blasting through stuff which would blast your XP gain down to a pittance if you stayed to do the dungeon. I agree that there can be some smoother implementations (The level 23 wanting to adventure with a level 19 for instance, since those are in a similar level range for a lot of content) but that's all a matter of fine tuning.

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