"A member of your party..." (Writs feedback)

[thingsicantdo]

Also, imagine this. Two buddies / friends / married couple play together, alright?
Both are at roughly the same level.
Now person A levels up again. That single level gets him out of the levelrange for the writs B has to do.
The solution to this is holding your levelups? Or the looseexp command? On a RP focused server?

for the first three lines: sounds like they made an oopsie. that's ok, life goes on. they just need to pick another writ thing. for the last one, yes. those are solutions.

i find it a lot more annoying when i'm with a buddy and we're trying to adventure and we find a level 10 or so in the damn goblin outpost because "writs lol". me and him are just trying to play the game (well, were. the high level characters keeping us from being able to really play the game sent him packing back to WoW because i can only say 'this doesn't happen every time' so many times), but we can't because... well, because "writs lol." we could have partied up with the other people there, but the allure of adventuring in this game isn't to gain XP for us. it was to play the game, use abilities, kill monsters, and have adventures.

the biggest defense of the 'old way' is for people to RP as tourists in dungeons, and then get paid for it.

[JCee94]

Why not just get rid of the exp reward at the end if out of range. Get's rid of the OOC incentive and mega grind incentive. If they go, it's for IC reasons. If they complete the job, the rep will still pay for the services rendered. Keeps it all IC. It makes no sense that the rep would say nope you killed the bandits but I somehow know he helped *points to epic* I don't pay when he helps.

This would make sense for challenge rating dnd exp rules as well. You could even use the challenge rating multiplier for writ exp reward.

No IC changes, only OOC changes that don't require OOC communication.

I still wouldn't like this change as in the real world mechanical gain is a big part of the fun for players in varying proportion to role play. But it does solve the role play dilemma the change creates.

[Nitro]

Someone tell me how im supposed to IC determine someones level for the purposes of writ progression when the randos I met are in -notells mode

"Hey mate, I have a writ for the FoD, you reckon you can handle yourself there?"
Or "Hey mate, We should join forces, what's the hardest writ you've done?"
Or "You don't think [writ X] would be too easy for us, do you?"

This point I'm trying to get is that now my good characters, who want to help a request, even if it's from a low level person to do a low level thing, have to try to explain to the low level person that they could come with, want to in fact, but the writ agent won't count it if the contract gets done by someone too strong for... reasons? If you've got a good way to work around that, let's hear it. I'm not being sarcastic when I say that. I'd use it in a heartbeat if it makes sense for the characters.

So don't make it about the writ in specific? It's the same situation with someone leveling without a writ, as Yellowcateyes said

Again, the restriction is not on the level difference between characters, but on party members with 3 levels over a quest's max level. Even characters up to six levels apart can share most writs.

So by the time you're stopping the writ from progressing, you're already severly cutting into a persons experience gain, so it's entirely reasonable to just say that it'd be too easy with you around or what have you.

EDIT:

Why not just get rid of the exp reward at the end if out of range. Get's rid of the OOC incentive and mega grind incentive. If they go, it's for IC reasons. If they complete the job, the rep will still pay for the services rendered. Keeps it all IC. It makes no sense that the rep would say nope you killed the bandits but I somehow know he helped *points to epic* I don't pay when he helps.

This seems like a grand ol' solution if people are being hung up over how 'ooc' this is. Have yellow text pop up informing you that you won't get any XP for turn-ins completed while partied with a higher level character.

[Rwby]

Someone tell me how im supposed to IC determine someones level for the purposes of writ progression when the randos I met are in -notells mode

"Hey mate, I have a writ for the FoD, you reckon you can handle yourself there?"
Or "Hey mate, We should join forces, what's the hardest writ you've done?"
Or "You don't think [writ X] would be too easy for us, do you?"

Hey mate, how many seasons you been fighting now?
Hey mate, I'm feeling a little like I'm not as dexterous as before after that snake hit me.
Hey mate, I have a feeling from the gods if we stand here another few hours, that orc we just slew will get up again and we can take it's head!
Hey mate, are you a rogue, a cleric, or a paladin? Or maybe just a fighter?


It's cringeworthy, immersion shattering conversations like this I am utterly, and totally desperate to avoid.

Please, please, for the love of roleplay and the setting, don't encourage them.

[Ork]

I think the higher level player should bow out if it's an area they're beyond. It's as simple as that. It's common courtesy in my opinion. High levels that tag along with low party groups out of boredom should be rolled.

[BegoneThoth]

Someone tell me how im supposed to IC determine someones level for the purposes of writ progression when the randos I met are in -notells mode

"Hey mate, I have a writ for the FoD, you reckon you can handle yourself there?"
Or "Hey mate, We should join forces, what's the hardest writ you've done?"
Or "You don't think [writ X] would be too easy for us, do you?"

"We can do it."

*A MEMBER OF YOUR PARTY*

[SockYeti]

Personally I honestly think doing a alerted exp amount based off what level of companions you have in your party when completing the writ is the best way to handle this. It doesn't completely punish someone for having a high level help out but also gives the effect the dev's are trying for. My knowledge of C++ is rusty (I'm a programmer by trade but I primarily work with C# and Javascript) but if it is a matter of how to implement the code it is something I would be willing to help with.

[BegoneThoth]

I don't, in all honesty, understand why something was done to an already great system. I understand there's a lot of double-talk with decisions that come down and systems that do the opposite of what they should, but this change just frustrates me.

1. Grinding is discouraged, is pretty boring, and everyone good at it just run-grinds laps anyway. You want to run to get it done faster, but running gets you docked RPR which means less server perks and MORE grinding, which ironically puts you in a state where you have nothing to lose by run-grinding, and actually get far more XP by speed-clearing.

2. You want ways to make the grind go faster, so you can spend more time RPing rather then being lowbie pvp bait for months. Writs accomplish that by propelling you to early 20's swiftly and limit the amount of time you spend doing slime temple laps or whatever.

3. Then a change like this happens that literally only increases the amount of time some people have to grind.

It's not even those of us that are good at grinding that are hurt by this; pro-grinders may not even take writs at some specific level ranges, instead this change hurts only those who are already BAD at leveling, those really dependent on writ XP, and whose trip to the relevant levels takes longer.

So I don't understand. Is the point to make grinding take longer? Is that why we're here? To do slime laps until we can do spriggan laps until we can do spirit laps? Why make this take longer arbitrarily? What is the problem with someone getting writ help? What was the problem with the initial change so you couldn't repeat quests? Why do we encourage a long grind by changing things like this just to make it longer, then slap people for running, or bringing a friend 4 levels higher while doing it?

Why do we insist the server is about the RP and not the grind, but then take steps to make the grind far more painful then it needs to be totally arbitrarily? So we can hit 20 and have a sense of pride and accomplishment for staying in a 3 level range the whole way up?

What are we doing here? In all honesty, I want to know what the objective of these types of changes is. What is the end goal? What vision does the team have for leveling? How do they think it should look, and how did the quest system before this and other nerfs to it not meet those design goals?

I would like to know. I am curious.

[Ebonstar]

we have done mentoring in the UD where we take new members of the House having troubles to help finish writs that really cant be solo'ed.

how it was done was this way.

the trek to the area was filled with rp for the new member. he was warded heavily and was shown the lay of the land so to speak. But combats were reserved for him unless it was a massive spawn to which we would take out the outliers and let him have the primaries to concentrate on.

when it came time for him to face the elder for the writ completion, we all stayed back and it was a one on one fight for the one being mentored.

This was one of the most enjoyable RP runs we had and did similar after.

it had nothing to do with us getting xp but solely for the writ holders benefit to not face an un soloable writ without aid.


Now i can see how some would use this to exploit and powerup their friends, but we have always had to deal with powergrinders who dont RP until they hit level 30. but these dont last long.

I just happen to prefer the way we did it above, instead of the powergrind

[Peppermint]

The writ system wasn't introduced to 'make leveling faster'. It was introduced to reward exploration/variety in adventures (i.e. there's now a reason not to simply loop the same dungeon over and over, and writs can also be fine-tuned to offer greater reward in less 'optimal' dungeons). If the intention was simply to increase leveling speed, full stop, that could have been done with a flat experience increase across the board.

The system was changed because high level players were escorting players through low level dungeons. "Wait," you might say. "But that creates roleplay!" Arguably*, it does, but it also has two awful side effects: 1) Dungeons are robbed of any essential challenge. 2) More importantly (in my opinion), and as many seem to completely overlook--allowing a 'mentor' situation puts genuine low level parties in direct competition with mentor-based parties. i.e., if you enter a dungeon without a writ, you need be prepared for the possibility that your XP will tank the moment you need some epic level character in your area 'for legitimate reasons'. Not ideal. Makes the game less fun for party #2, and discourages any interaction between both parties altogether.

At any rate, the new restrictions are incredibly generous. They're not based on the levels of the characters, but on the maximum level of the writ itself. That means it's well possible for characters up to nine levels apart to operate on the same writ. Moreover, there's no reason for a character out of the appropriate level range to stumble into the area to begin with. If you're routinely running into hurdles here, I daresay you may be looking for adventure in all the wrong places.

(* Arguably, I say, because high levels and low levels have been traveling together since the dawn of time. This notion that fine-tuning writs represents a 'change in direction' is patently nonsensical. Writs are a new addition. Fine tuning a new addition does not equal the end of roleplay as we know it.)

[TroubledWaters]

This is an un-fun change which encourages soloing, provides a disincentive for party play, and wrecks RP. As a level 23, now whenever people are grouping up to do something fun, I now have to make an IC excuse not to join and then go off and solo instead.

I liked playing with other people and don't find this to be particularly fun.

I am sorry that some people are being powerleveled via writs, but you can only do three writs a day. If it's such a huge problem then maybe change the ratio of XP for writs/monsters.

[Peppermint]

This is troubling. I don't remember rampant soloing and a lack of RP being a problem before writs were introduced. What's changed?

[MissEvelyn]

This is troubling. I don't remember rampant soloing and a lack of RP being a problem before writs were introduced. What's changed?

Rampant soloing and lack of RP has always to some degree been a problem at times, even before writs. Now the difference is that it's actually encouraged.

[TroubledWaters]

This is troubling. I don't remember rampant soloing and a lack of RP being a problem before writs were introduced. What's changed?

Unfortunately, what's changed is now we can't join parties with people who are more than three levels away without ruining their writs. Now we have to go solo somewhere instead.

Rampant soloing and lack of RP has always to some degree been a problem at times, even before writs. Now the difference is that it's actually encouraged.

Yep. :/

[dominantdrowess]

This is a bad change, and I hope sincerely this is reverted.

Anything that requires us to step outside of our characters and OOCly ask specific level numbers is ridiculous.

There is also ZERO IC REASON ... for an NPC to -care- HOW you completed the quest. The size of the population of Neverwinter Nights servers does not justify this either. Especially on surface-writs.

I sincerely, sincerely hope this gets reverted. This is ham-fisted and clumsy.

I think the higher level player should bow out if it's an area they're beyond. It's as simple as that. It's common courtesy in my opinion. High levels that tag along with low party groups out of boredom should be rolled.

This is also a ridiculous notion, given how spread-out the population can be during some hours. If epic level characters were rolled every time there was a slow couple of hours and new characters had trouble finding partners for writs -- then there would be zero need for end-game content that a lot of people on this server actually enjoy -- some of us also have on-going roleplays and RP connections not related to the level our character currently sits at.

This is a ridiculous comment made out of blind support for a change a lot of people feel negatively about.

So I go and clear out some Crinti with someone -- a group of sneak attackers who can, technically kill me if I am not paying attention with my character. Why do I deserve to get "rolled", because you don't like that? It's not even like I do it daily. Or weekly.

Ham-handed locking it to a universal distance of levels is silly.

[DM Atropos]

Not letting a 30 be your meatshield is not the same thing as "being required to solo".


At all.


You are perfectly welcome to find a group of similar-level players. It does require RP, which is what everyone who is against this is citing as the reason this is bad, which I'm not quite clear on. You can't just have your friend carry you.

If you want your friend to carry you, you are welcome to. Nothing is stopping you. You simply need to be aware it will come with a commensurate sacrifice of XP.

"I can kill orcs easy but ogres give me a run for my money"
"The swamps I can travel safely but those wharftown boys...hoo!"

There are dozens of ways to announce your abilities without "immersion breaking" (as though it's any less immersion breaking to do the same quest every single day for a week, along with fifty other people, and still have the exact same critters to kill) or having to say a single word out of character.

[dominantdrowess]

Not letting a 30 be your meatshield is not the same thing as "being required to solo".


At all.


You are perfectly welcome to find a group of similar-level players. It does require RP, which is what everyone who is against this is citing as the reason this is bad, which I'm not quite clear on. You can't just have your friend carry you.

If you want your friend to carry you, you are welcome to. Nothing is stopping you. You simply need to be aware it will come with a commensurate sacrifice of XP.

"I can kill orcs easy but ogres give me a run for my money"
"The swamps I can travel safely but those wharftown boys...hoo!"

There are dozens of ways to announce your abilities without "immersion breaking" (as though it's any less immersion breaking to do the same quest every single day for a week, along with fifty other people, and still have the exact same critters to kill) or having to say a single word out of character.

The problem with this approach is, the highest level zone my character can "solo" as a level 30, 2-handed weapon-master is "Deep-Glen" ... a zone writed for Level 17 characters. I could -go- to Avernus -- but the Vorpal Swords of the Balors -will- eventually 1-shot me on a natural 1 roll without the opportunity to counter-play from my character; and this isn't exactly a level 30 zone either.

The reason Solo play keeps being brought up -- is because this change /enforces/ the need for it during some hours -- like the hours where Americans are at work and people in other time-zones are playing at various scattered levels.

I have always "bowed out" whenever a level 17 wants to go through for purposes of advancing their character; but the fact of the matter is, the level range for characters in this instance is FAR TO NARROW ... and the Writ-System, especially in Skal, for some character builds is NOT balanced for some characters to NOT have party members... the writ-system needs HUGE re-balancing before a change like this should even be considered.

The Minotaur boss in Skal, or the Barbarian boss near Brogenstien ... even when you're slightly outside the level range with a min-maxed build -shreds- some people -- I've legitimately been killed from max hit-points in one round by that boss; and these things need to be considered before a ham-fisted level cap is applied to the party.

This change is ridiculous and people feel strongly about it.

[Sockss]

The problem with this approach is, the highest level zone my character can "solo" as a level 30, 2-handed weapon-master is "Deep-Glen" ... a zone writed for Level 17 characters. I could -go- to Avernus -- but the Vorpal Swords of the Balors -will- eventually 1-shot me on a natural 1 roll without the opportunity to counter-play from my character; and this isn't exactly a level 30 zone either.

I mean, that's 100% a problem with how you made your character, and/or play style.

Edit: I'm not arguing against your choice/s, but, it is definitely a choice to be in that position. There's an array of people that will help you with a build, or ones posted on the forum.

[dominantdrowess]

23 Fighter/7 WM Kensai (greatsword) -- It's meta, but I thought when they removed Kensai... Kensai'd be "removed". Didn't happen. The fact of the matter is, these are zones I'm in anyways; and nobody would argue my character -isn't- effective if they see her working -- it doesn't invalidate my argument at all.

[BegoneThoth]

Not letting a 30 be your meatshield is not the same thing as "being required to solo".

Just don't be in the group as the lowbie you're helping do writs with and keep them on -guard. Make sure they act like it's dota and last hit.

Bada bing bada boom. This is whats happening now.

[Lunargent]

Not letting a 30 be your meatshield is not the same thing as "being required to solo".

A 20+ level disparity isn't the same as a 3 level disparity, either.

[thingsicantdo]

23 Fighter/7 WM Kensai (greatsword) -- It's meta, but I thought when they removed Kensai... Kensai'd be "removed". Didn't happen. The fact of the matter is, these are zones I'm in anyways; and nobody would argue my character -isn't- effective if they see her working -- it doesn't invalidate my argument at all.

ok, so, how does the writ change affect your character? if he can get the writ, there isn't a problem. if he can't, then it's still not a problem.

the problem comes from other people who don't really want to adventure with someone who is going to outshine them, or 'seems to have this taken care of.' either way, you're the one soloing drastically lower level areas, people are going to think that about you regardless. (believe it or not, not everyone *only* adventures on writs)

[BegoneThoth]

23 Fighter/7 WM Kensai (greatsword) -- It's meta, but I thought when they removed Kensai... Kensai'd be "removed". Didn't happen. The fact of the matter is, these are zones I'm in anyways; and nobody would argue my character -isn't- effective if they see her working -- it doesn't invalidate my argument at all.

ok, so, how does the writ change affect your character? if he can get the writ, there isn't a problem. if he can't, then it's still not a problem.

the problem comes from other people who don't really want to adventure with someone who is going to outshine them, or 'seems to have this taken care of.' either way, you're the one soloing drastically lower level areas, people are going to think that about you regardless. (believe it or not, not everyone *only* adventures on writs)

I really feel like you're latching on to the wrong point of their post.

[dominantdrowess]

23 Fighter/7 WM Kensai (greatsword) -- It's meta, but I thought when they removed Kensai... Kensai'd be "removed". Didn't happen. The fact of the matter is, these are zones I'm in anyways; and nobody would argue my character -isn't- effective if they see her working -- it doesn't invalidate my argument at all.

ok, so, how does the writ change affect your character? if he can get the writ, there isn't a problem. if he can't, then it's still not a problem.

the problem comes from other people who don't really want to adventure with someone who is going to outshine them, or 'seems to have this taken care of.' either way, you're the one soloing drastically lower level areas, people are going to think that about you regardless. (believe it or not, not everyone *only* adventures on writs)

I really feel like you're latching on to the wrong point of their post.

That's exactly it. They latch onto one part, and ignore the rest of it-- and keep knocking the same point down over and over like a strawman argument, while ignoring the fact that players levels are not evenly distributed enough on the server to support a quest system this restricted durring all hours and SOME players ("normal people!" who have kids at this age) only have 1 or 2 hours PER DAY (OR LESS) to play -- durring the same time-zone period; nevermind that the NPC who issue these writs's have no way of knowing HOW the person got the Orc-King (or Ogre-boss, or whatever) killed or that the person involved ALREADY has an EXP penalty for monsters killed.

Making it HARDER to coordinate parties in The Underdark (durring SOME people's time-zones) is ridiculous to me -- I am on almost 18 hours per day -- I see the problems of MANY different time-zones, and I see this continuously during some periods. If it was a 9 or 10-level gap limit, I could see it. Epic levels is where the writ-system stops anyways ... and it would stop level 30's from participating in it if that's the core of the problem--

But stopping someone 7 levels higher than a level 19-- these characters often fight in the same zones anyways and in many builds have much the same level of power as a level 3 vs. a level 5, or a level 9 vs. a 15 -- who I might add, under the system, can quest together.

I disagree with the arbitrary number chosen. There's no math behind it, which is why I call it ham-fisted. I spend more time talking to people who experience many of these problems than... virtually anyone on this server (just because I never log out) and this just compounds manyof those issues in addition to the things I've already brought up about the balance of some of these quests that you -legitimately- NEED someone higher than 6 levels above the quest to kill the thing.

[BegoneThoth]

And I agree with you.

It makes no sense, is unwanted, and doesn't solve any 'problem.'

The only way it solves a problem is if grinding is one of the goals this server has; only if grinding is a core pillar of arelith does the grind deserve to be 'protected' as it is here.