Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Barradoor » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:39 am

[quote=Peppermint post_id=158084 time=1529400731 As for dual wield synergy, bear in mind that dual wielding tends to favor classes that receive bonus on hit damage (e.g. rogue sneak attack and ranger bane of enemies). Though I'd argue that they're far too feat-starved for it to be an optimal choice, spellswords fall squarely into this category.
[/quote]

Bonus Feat every 5 levels
Feat Starved
>>>

A friend of mine is currently running a dex based SS that has apparently been able to solo with unbelievable ease things 3-4 levels above its range, the human varient including one free feat to spend. (At least, with relying on Ring of the Ram for KD)
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Peppermint » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:27 am

Non sequitur.

Yes, they are generally feat-starved. You get a bonus feat every five levels, but remember that you're spending those feats both on caster feats and melee feats.

Ideally, you're going to want:

Expertise
Improved Expertise
Blind Fight
Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration
Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation
Arcane Defense: Abjuration
Extend Spell
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
Improved Knockdown
Weapon Focus
Improved Critical

Even without accounting for dual wield, you'll have to make sacrifices here. Empower or Maximize, for example, will probably be among the first to go. Possibly Knockdown, though bear in mind that Ring of the Ram 1) costs an item slot 2) isn't in the loot table.

You can make it work, but it's non-trivial and/or makes significant sacrifices elsewhere.

Frankly, any Spellsword should be able to solo content above its level. Heck, that's true for virtually any Arelith build. Arelith's dungeons have never assumed optimal characters to any degree.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Disciprine Come From Within » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:50 am

To be fair, the main reason taking dungeons above your level is possible is because spawn size is based on party level. Thus, the higher level has to deal with more than a lower level all the way to that area's cap.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by sad_zav » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:31 pm

Ring of the ram's removal from the loot matrix should be formally announced. A lot of people build around it and they may search for it in vain.
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:43 pm

Whoa, that's a big change. Is it true legacy now? No longer able to be found?

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Nitro » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:50 pm

sad_zav wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:31 pm
Ring of the ram's removal from the loot matrix should be formally announced. A lot of people build around it and they may search for it in vain.
The addition or removals of items from the loot matrix have never been announced, be they rings of regeneration or ring of the ram. (The exception being artifacts, but that was a whole system)

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:52 pm

sad_zav wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:31 pm
Ring of the ram's removal from the loot matrix should be formally announced. A lot of people build around it and they may search for it in vain.
It could be argued that there's a lot of changes that should be formally announced (I'm looking at you, OOC writ level restriction), but I can understand the team wanting to keep certain changes FOIG, such as this one, especially if they add new items to the loot cycle while removing others. It keeps things fresh and exciting.


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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by sad_zav » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:06 pm

It could also be argued that there's nothing fresh and exciting about getting to epics only to find out that you'll need to delevel to 12 if you want kd

there's also nothing fresh and exciting about hunting for a ring for a month only to find out via an off-handed comment on the forums that what you're looking for doesn't exist

As a note, I'm not saying this as someone affected by the change. I just know that this would be incredibly frustrating
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:38 pm

sad_zav wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:31 pm
Ring of the ram's removal from the loot matrix should be formally announced.
You will find that Arelith has started a new trend of silent updates lately.

I.E. <3 being a console command then being disabled, both silent updates. Gem stack removals, silent update. Spell component pouches not blowing up when hitting 0 charges, another silent update. Not sure when not documenting stuff became a thing but it's a little weird and comes across as lazy as I can't fathom any reason why you'd want to keep any of what I just listed as FOIG.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:05 pm

New loot items are cycled in and old loot items are cycled out on a semi-regular basis. It's never been the staff's habit to document loot changes except in the most general sense (e.g., "scroll drops increased") or when a major new system is added or removed (artefacts, runecrafting, etc.).

Unless you're absolutely certain you can get a hold of the item, I'd advise against planning a build around specific loot drops. There's no guarantee that the items dropping today will continue to drop in the future.
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Barradoor » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:22 pm

Peppermint wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:27 am
Non sequitur.

Yes, they are generally feat-starved. You get a bonus feat every five levels, but remember that you're spending those feats both on caster feats and melee feats.

Ideally, you're going to want:

Expertise
Improved Expertise
Blind Fight
Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration
Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation
Arcane Defense: Abjuration
Extend Spell
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
Improved Knockdown
Weapon Focus
Improved Critical

Even without accounting for dual wield, you'll have to make sacrifices here. Empower or Maximize, for example, will probably be among the first to go. Possibly Knockdown, though bear in mind that Ring of the Ram 1) costs an item slot 2) isn't in the loot table.

You can make it work, but it's non-trivial and/or makes significant sacrifices elsewhere.

Frankly, any Spellsword should be able to solo content above its level. Heck, that's true for virtually any Arelith build. Arelith's dungeons have never assumed optimal characters to any degree.
You really don't need empower, and I'm unsure of what you mean by Ring of Ram not being in the loot table*edit*, sure, you can take GSF Abjur and Arcane Defence Abjur but your most important things on Spellsword aren't dispellable, being Epic Mage Armor and your damage imbues.

*I found a ring of ram three-four days ago, so I suppose it's a surprise.
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:51 pm

I can understand the need to keep certain changes a secret. That's fine.

It would be nice, however, to either make an update known to all or no one at all (outside staff), rather than having people within the staff tell their non-staff buddies about changes that do not appear in the update thread.
That just seems unprofessional. And it makes people feel left out of the cliques, simply because they haven't befriended the right person.

Lastly, changes like the Writ level restriction should definitely be announced, as they are 100% mechanical and purely out of character.


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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Nitro » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:15 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:51 pm
I can understand the need to keep certain changes a secret. That's fine.

It would be nice, however, to either make an update known to all or no one at all (outside staff), rather than having people within the staff tell their non-staff buddies about changes that do not appear in the update thread.
That just seems unprofessional. And it makes people feel left out of the cliques, simply because they haven't befriended the right person.
That's nearly impossible to actually enforce though. Unless the person(s) that someone on staff blab to turn back around and report it upwards then it's impossible to even tell who did it. And even then if they are caught doing it, then what? It's an unpaid project so you can hardly dock someones pay over it, and no longer accepting the contributions of people just because they are a leaky tap is just a waste when all of the content is provided by volunteers.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Jagel » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:19 pm

There's also gotta be a tier of changes and fixes that do not need to be announced. Documentation is actually a very time consuming activity. With the amount of people working on the server atm I'll live with a few undocumented changes now and then.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by JediMindTrix » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:29 pm

Nitro, MissEvelyn's point is a bit broader than just 'changes meant to stay secret'.
Last edited by JediMindTrix on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:30 pm

yellowcateyes wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:54 pm

That said, how would you have designed spellsword if you could rebuild it from scratch?
I might be going out on a limb, but I have more questions to this that maybe have some answers. And as a disclaimer, I always feel like spellswords (or similar gish builds) are super tricky design spaces because they're often derived from wanting to be a badass Jedi-esque character, but then what are Jedi not good at?

My question is, and something I've struggled finding with most new paths on Arelith, what are spellswords meant to achieve from a design space that is currently vacant?

Are they meant to be half-casters and half-fighters? Or are they meant to be half-fighters that are supported by arcane abilities? Are they meant to be 3/4-casters that have the ability to, impromptu, get in the melee if they have to? Are they just straight 3.5 Eldritch Knights? Or are they those other weird PnP gish prestige classes, like the Daggerspells, etc.

It seems to me, and I guess to the broader community, that when you combine 9 Spell Levels casting with serious fighter-level weapon AB/damage output, ON TOP of unique gish mechanics, you get this feeling of "man they can do it all, can't they"

I don't think spellswords should be nerfed any further. I don't even think they needed the latest nerf. I don't like nerfs. I think the problem with spellswords is that they require 0 creativity because their limitations are not severe enough.

1. They should have an entirely reworked Spell Tier system. Might've been a lot of work, but I think you could've hit 2 birds with 1 stone here, because you could lay groundwork for future paths. I don't think they should've been able to cast 9 level spells, take spell focuses the same way, have access to the same CL progression, or have as many spell schools available. I don't think there's enough distinction between spellswords and wizards.

2. I also don't enjoy how spellswords (almost instantly) became shoe-horned into a "wield one-handed weapon" from the beginning. I think spellswords should've had the flexibility to enjoy any weapon of choice. There should have been more flexibility, and more drawback, around weapon choice.

3. The Imbue System is really cool, and it's the most original part of the Spellsword. It should've been the entire focus of the class. I understand it sort-of already is, but it should have become the predominant focus. I think spellswords should have ignored all of those "fundamental class changes" to INT damage, Hit Die, BAB progression, etc, and should've kept spellswords with all the traits of a wizard. I think the Imbue System should have been where spellswords get all those abilities. Combined with a new spell system for spellswords, and more ways to interact with Imbue, I think spellswords could have been more situated in this "spell-like ability gish build."

Maybe none of my ideas are feasible, or are broken, or not mechanically sound, but I think the spellsword needs stronger limitations to make the class have a better identity, so then we can double-down on what's unique to it and expand it.
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:37 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:30 pm

2. I also don't enjoy how spellswords (almost instantly) became shoe-horned into a "wield one-handed weapon" from the beginning. I think spellswords should've had the flexibility to enjoy any weapon of choice. There should have been more flexibility, and more drawback, around weapon choice.

This, at least, is already true. Sure, it may be less optimal to go with a two handed weapon, but that's not really any less true for a lot of other classes.
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:44 pm

What you're describing sounds almost like a melee-focused warlock path. Which would be awesome, tbh.
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Nitro » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:00 pm

That would be really cool. Make it bard base class with all that it entails 3/4 BAB etc, then give them spells at a similar progression to warlocks and instead of eldritch blasts, they get an imbue that scales up as they level.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by PinataPlethora » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:01 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:44 pm
What you're describing sounds almost like a melee-focused warlock path. Which would be awesome, tbh.
I have always wanted that. Imbue weapons, hex opponents.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Griefmaker » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:32 am

I have played three spellswords to varying levels of progress (the highest level one was level 28) and have thought about this for some time.

If I were redoing spellswords, some of the major points I would look at would be the following (not sure if all of this is possible to make without haks):
  • 3/4 BAB and cleric HD -- they are like clerics in that they can focus more on martial action than simply flinging spells
  • forbidden spell school and no summons
  • -1 spell slot per spell level -- this, along with the forbidden spell school shows their focus is not fully on magic like a normal wizard. It might also delay a spellsword getting spells (sort of like a sorceror), especially for those with low int. That too fits in the theme of their focus not solely on magic like other mages.
  • Int or Str mod used for damage (not both combined) -- I look at this as a the intelligent spellsword knowing how to imbue their weapons in a more intimate way than those who focus on brawn. Then again, since most will likely choose high strength anyway to max AB, this is likely not useful or necessary. BUT....I love options and if a spellsword chose to focus on int, they might not hit stuff, but might still get a little "oomph" when they do.
  • More imbue weapon affects (especially ones that can apply debilitating status affects) and the ability to imbue a weapon more with higher spellsword (wizard) levels (once until level 10, twice until level 20, three times level 21+, maybe four times at 28+). Imbuing weapons is really the key skill of spellswords (and what makes them really cool). Being able to apply all manner of status affects upon a creature as they are being hit by a weapon should be the focus of the class. (this idea of being able to imbue a weapon a lot more is the primary benefit and feat for a spellsword, which is why I would suggest a focus upon it and have a spellsword be able to do more with it.)
  • I would drastically lower the damage of each additional imbue...+1 to +4 damage max per imbue as they scale in levels per 10 level "tier". Two 1d12 damage imbues plus temp essences plus +5 from GMW has always seemed a little too much...especially since everyone usually goes strength based for more damage. Though with the extra int damage, I found my int/dex based spellswords to be far more fun and versatile, even if not as powerful as a strength-based one. A spellsword should really not be doing more melee damage than a regular fighter who is dedicated to melee...but focus on leaving a foe debilitated and wounded and ready to be abused by someone else or by the spellsword on the next attack. Plus, if they really need some immediate damage, they can still fall back on a few spells.
  • I like the DC of the imbues and how they can get pretty respectable...especially with the end game NPCs often still having rather high saves. I do not look at PvP, so I cannot judge from there. Maybe include in the system a way to increase the DC of imbues with appropriate spell focuses (for the spells doing the imbuing) and Int mods, making it so that those who are willing to sacrifice in some area can benefit in another.
  • EDIT: Someone mentioned to me about spellsword mage armor progression and I agree that is something to add to the list too. It is sort of the arcane version of the cleric's Magic Vestment spell and totally fits in the idea of a spellsword imbuing weapons/armor.

I liked the idea of the extra discipline, shield AC, Int damage, etc. that a spellsword was designed with, but it is just icing on an already very well iced cake (though the +15 discipline at level 28 is a nice thing and something I feel any class which does not have discipline as a class skill should get if one were to go pure in that class). The spellsword is a hybrid class, like a bard, who might not be the best fighter or the best caster, but can do both well enough. Like a bard too, they have their own niche, in this case the imbues.

Being able to apply more imbues which result in more status effects to a foe instead of simply raw damage would give a spellsword their own place in groups too, again using the bard as an example in how they have bard song/curse song.

And yes, I am one who does not like nerfs in general and usually opposes them and realize my suggestion would be a fairly significant nerf to the class in their ability to do raw damage. But my idea of a spellsword is to not try to make them into a class that can compete with fighters AND also has a nearly full arsenal of magic as a backup, but more of a class that has their own useful and unique niche.
Last edited by Griefmaker on Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:27 am

+1 to the above post. I really like Griefmaker's approach to the Spellsword.


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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by ReverentBlade » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:01 am

Removing its pure casting abilities, I feel, would necessitate DM facilitated rebuilds. I imagine many characters would prefer to be just normal wizards at that point for RP and backstory reasons. It is a drastic change of flavor.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Twily » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:28 am

.
Personally I think Spellsword is very good as far as core design goes, as it is.
(Long version below)
- The 3/4 AB I see as the core part of the class, Without it they wouldn't really be viable in melee. I don't feel it's overpowered, as they completely lose all summons to gain this. They need it to defend themselves, or else they'll become extremely reliant on other players.
This is the one thing that above all else I'd like to see remain.
(I put a lot of work into trying WeaveMaster/Fighter builds, and they just didn't cut it. They were fun, although anything but strong or end-game viable compared to most builds. Even my Fighter15/Rogue15 chain user w/stealth and halberd was stronger than my weave master/fighter.)

- Behind that, I see Imbue's as the next big thing. They give the class flavor, and really help tie together the arcane and using a weapon- it's what turns it into a "spellsword" rather than "a mage with a sword".
I don't mind if what each imbue does or how they're applied changes, but I don't want imbues to go away.

-EMA I see as necessary unless a larger non-dispellable AC source is added.
Before EMA, I was heavily reliant on spells that, seeing as I'm on the front-line as a melee character, could and would be removed in less than one round, several times every single dungeon(There's SOO many mobs out there that insta-cast and/or spam GreaterDispels, GreaterBreaches, Mords, etc; there's no summons to tank the dispells).
This caused my death/near-death literally countless times.
It also prevented me from preparing buffs for party members, because I always needed extras ready for myself for the inevitable dispel or else I become useless. (I'd die in melee, don't have summons, and have limited alternatives available after the assortment of buffs needed to get proper defense for melee combat)
These three things, I personally don't want to see removed. Numbers and effects could be tweaked, new imbues could be added, bugs could be fixed, etc, but the core concept as is I personally think is near flawless.
It became my favorite class the second I read it in the update thread, and almost a year later that hasn't changed despite the alterations and nerfs that have occurred.

I don't want to see Spellsword turn into FavoredSoul 2.0 though.
FavoredSoul had plenty of spells that accented melee combat nicely, but they lacked any sort of offensive spell beyond UMD or Enchantment spells(which have DCs and are easily blockable by SR and Clarity), and they were extremely vulnerable to dispels, resulting in a limited enjoyment.
Spellsword should maintain a solid arsenal of no-save offensive magic, even if it's a bit weaker than a traditional mages.

That's how it currently is: Since most spellswords aren't pure, SpellResistance is suddenly a huge factor in tons of PvE cases, and even some PvP cases(against classes with the SR subrace properties, or a certain craftable helmet that can tank 25-40% of the casts from the most common spellsword builds).


PS: If a large change to spellsword is to be considered, perhaps consider making it another type of spellsword and having both as an option?
As long as both are balanced and different enough, there's no reason to not provide more options.
Having different types of builds able to do similar things in their own way could add some depth to the whole field (Ie, There's Wizards and Sorcerers, why not Wizard-Spellsword and Sorcerer-Spellsword)

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by yellowcateyes » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:17 pm

The core of Kirito's design will likely remain. That is, a martial caster that gives up a spell school, summoning, and access to most epic spells in exchange for 3/4th BAB and specialized imbues. It's unlikely that any of these aspects will see major revision, as such a rework might as well entail writing a whole new path from scratch.

What may change in the future are specific numbers, effects, and synergies. For example, a bug was fixed recently that permitted temporary essences to stack with weapon imbues so long as they were applied in a specific order. Now, temporary essences and weapon imbues properly exclude each other. We may also see adjustments in imbue damage output and scaling, and in whether imbues can be used from scrolls at all or must be drawn from a spellsword's spell slots.

Beyond that, I don't foresee major changes to how the path is played and built. The question I asked Iceborn was mostly out of curiosity, as it is always interesting to see how different people would design the same thing.

Regarding the 'INT or STR' damage suggestion, the significant flaw there is that it will do less to encourage INT spellswords than it would provide an unmitigated boon to DEX spellswords, combining all the advantages of DEX and STR into a single build option. It's unlikely that INT-based scaling to damage will return in any form - instead look to imbues and spells to provide the spellsword's killing power.
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