Bigby's Curshing Hand

[Richørd]

... how is that spell okay? Casters seem strong enough but it surprises me that the only Arelith specific change to this spell is the change of the save to a reflex roll.

When I faced a pure-caster character who used that spell, it resulted in me rolling my reflex save against a whopping DC of 40. How is it okay to have such a high DC on a "press to win" button?

Seems questionable at best to me. Opinions?

[Nitro]

It's actually nerfed quite significantly from vanilla by virtue of having a save in the first place, and to add on to that, FoM can nullify the grappling effect entirely. So I wouldn't call it a "win" button.

And unless my calculations are off, for a DC40 save, the caster would need ESF: Evocation, and 40 INT for a +15 INT mod to the save, which is quite the investment that can be matched by similar investment into saving throws.

[Baron Saturday]

The -pray command, if I'm not mistaken, will also remove the paralysis and immobilization.

Basically, while Bigby spells are powerful, they -- just like high level death magic -- are a threat only if the target isn't protected against them.

[PinataPlethora]

And unless my calculations are off, for a DC40 save, the caster would need ESF: Evocation, and 40 INT for a +15 INT mod to the save, which is quite the investment that can be matched by similar investment into saving throws.

It means they've made some kind of sacrifice to get there, and created an exploitable weakness somewhere in the build. All you have to do is find it.

[Richørd]

First of all, I do feel like I need to post some hard info.

Arelith : "Has a reflex save." That is all the wiki says.

Secondly the formula for the spell itself, according to the NWN:EE wiki:
"d20 + caster's ability modifier + caster level + 12 - 1
If this roll meets or exceeds the target's armor class, then an actual grapple is attempted:
caster: d20 + ability modifier + caster level + 12 + 4 vs.
target: d20 + strength modifier + BAB + size modifier.
A tie means a successful grapple."

And while it is true that FoM would protect one from this, it is still bad to say "Oh yeah, as a martial character you are absolutely required to have three levels in either bard or rogue."
It just feels bad, man. And it also raises the question of how balanced UMD really is currently.

[Ork]

Your by no means required to have UMD. You're just going to have weaknesses without it. There's a give and take to it all. If you choose not to take UMD, you need to find a way to beef up your reflex save.

There are melee builds out there that won't be hindered in the slightest by a DC40 reflex save.

Did you recently get stomped by this spell?

[Wytchee]

Mmm. If you're going up against an epic evoker unprepared, or alone, then you're gonna have a bad time.

The spell has been *dramatically* nerfed from vanilla. It used to be just a simple strength check, and high-fort people were getting steamrolled by it. I keenly remember my level 17 sorcerer just completely humiliating level 30 weapon masters with that spell back in the day.

And yeah, Ork, me thinks this protest was inspired by a recent stomping.

[Richørd]

Oh. Of course it was. I guess it is blatantly obvious.

Still it just occurs ridiculous to me that a character without UMD , like mine , has to roll a nat. 20 to surpass the check.

But I guess I will just cheaply use -pray in the future whenever that happens to me again.

[Wytchee]

I mean, not to be contentious, but I recall you kind of dismissing UMD as superfluous during our brief discord talks over builds and such. Mages, particularly evokers, have very high skill ceilings. That means they're easily exploitable if you know what you're doing.

I'm of the opinion that mages who wield 9th Circle spells, let alone Epic Spells or gods forbid wild magic, should be feared simply by default. I believe any meleer who goes around causally shrugging off that kind of power is due for an in-character spanking and a due lesson learned. So, maybe take this as a teaching moment IC, and consider bringing a friend next time.

[Baron Saturday]

I feel like I'm piling on, but I want to add that with no UMD and a reflex save of 20 or less, there's characters who could beat you with a Grease spell or two.

[Nitro]

First of all, I do feel like I need to post some hard info.

Arelith : "Has a reflex save." That is all the wiki says.

Secondly the formula for the spell itself, according to the NWN:EE wiki:
"d20 + caster's ability modifier + caster level + 12 - 1
If this roll meets or exceeds the target's armor class, then an actual grapple is attempted:
caster: d20 + ability modifier + caster level + 12 + 4 vs.
target: d20 + strength modifier + BAB + size modifier.
A tie means a successful grapple."

And while it is true that FoM would protect one from this, it is still bad to say "Oh yeah, as a martial character you are absolutely required to have three levels in either bard or rogue."
It just feels bad, man. And it also raises the question of how balanced UMD really is currently.

It should be noted, that the formula you posted happens AFTER the reflex save. So first you have to fail the reflex save, THEN you need to make the grapple check. What Arelith has done is add the REF save in the first place.

[JediMindTrix]

Did you recently get stomped by this spell?

When I faced a pure-caster character who used that spell, it resulted in me rolling my reflex save against a whopping DC of 40. How is it okay to have such a high DC on a "press to win" button?

[susitsu]

Having friends also largely removes a lot of the requirement for UMD, friend.

It's a skill for yourself by yourself, primarily. Lest you be in an inferior party of solely melees and someone is spamming a haste wand or something else equally expensive as all hell to maintain over even a single trip, and horrifyingly worse yet at several.

[WanderingPoet]

Still it just occurs ridiculous to me that a character without UMD , like mine , has to roll a nat. 20 to surpass the check.

I'll bite, why? Why does every character need to have a solution to all problems? Arguably, why should a wizard have to have high Con in order to not die in 1-3 hits from a weapon master? How is it not ridiculous by the same margin that a level 25 fighter can cut through premonition like it isn't there and negate the wizard's primary defence against fighters?

Having weaknesses is part of what makes playing a character fun, and Freedom of Movement can be cast by most caster classes, making it easy to get if you just pester a friend - no UMD required. You could also beat it with sufficient AC (70 would block it, 60s would have a good chance). You can also beat it with a sufficiently high strength - although this is oddly very difficult to do by the formula.

An ally could also use remove paralysis or restoration to free you. A Saint's Blood Pearl gives a UMDless restoration if I remember right, as would a Ring of Succor.

[msterswrdsmn]

Honestly, this isn't any worse than a lot of the other high level spells out there. If anything, its better when compared to things like finger of death or implosion, which will flat out kill you if you fail your save. Sure, its powerful, but you need to spend spell components and piety to use it, and you can only use it so many times per rest.

Most class builds are going to have at least one, if not two weak saves. A DC of 40 might seem like a lot, but a character with reflex as their strong save and a strong DEX score will likely be able to reliably avoid that by/around level 20.

If someone DID get their bigby DC to 40, guess what? That means they're probably at/near level 30 with a maximized casting stat. This really isnt that much different than a level 30 weaponmaster walking up and killing you with one hit with a 50 AB triple-digit crit. They attacked you with the strong point of their epic level build, and you ended up eating the damage.

Side note; why is this a UMD debate? Can't you defend against bigby's paralysis with a simple clarity potion?

[JediMindTrix]

Paralysis is not mind affecting

[TimeAdept]

It CAN be, in the case of Hold Person/Monster, but is not always.

[Baron Saturday]

Paralysis is not mind affecting

From the NWN wiki page:

If the target is immune to either paralysis or mind-affecting spells, the target will be immobilized instead of paralyzed. This allows the target to perform actions while held stationary, but makes it harder to remove this spell.

[Tarkus the dog]

Bigby's spells are bad, huh?

*camera pans to random cj palemaster rolling 1 to implosion*

Yea, I guess so

[Shadowy Reality]

Unfortunately UMD is pretty much mandatory. Otherwise you lose to both casters and other meleers.
It is likewise unfortunate that everyone needs 350+ HP to survive more than one WM hit or the Evo Combo.

That said, you can farm the spider nest in the crags, there is a sword that when used provides freedom of movement.

[Jagel]

That said, you can farm the spider nest in the crags, there is a sword that when used provides freedom of movement.

Single use, though. “Farm” is the keyword here

[Nitro]

But hey, you're dedicated to your anti-UMD lifestyle if you're willing to keep a backpack full of single-use greatswords.

[Jagel]

True dat.

Geezer time: back when I joined the server in 2004, Bigby spells really were a win button as scrolls were far more rare and the metagame assesment of counters to min-max tactics was much less developed than it is now.

Once a mage hit lvl 17 any warrior might as well just back off.

[msterswrdsmn]

^ It was like that when I joined the server as well. I think it was more or less like that until the gold/xp costs for scribe scrolls/craft wands was dramatically reduced from the default nwn costs to what they are now.

Side note; you don't need UMD necessarily to use freedom of movement. Paladins and Rangers can also use Freedom of movement scrolls without UMD.

[flower]

True dat.

Geezer time: back when I joined the server in 2004, Bigby spells really were a win button as scrolls were far more rare and the metagame assesment of counters to min-max tactics was much less developed than it is now.

Once a mage hit lvl 17 any warrior might as well just back off.

When i joined, if you wanted to win PVPs, you made a mage. UD was usually controlled by faction having more mages than others.

Fortunetly these days are partly over and meelers got many new boons since it.

However one thing i dont like and that is duration of all these disabling spells. They are too long for a spell where opposition fails the save and practically lost it.