Late game dungeons versus the rogue

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ForgottenBhaal
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Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by ForgottenBhaal » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:32 pm

So, something which I noticed as I leveled up as my new rogue character is, that there is alot of sneak immunity out there. I mean alot. The new update to rogues are pretty nice, but could perhaps something be done to make them alittle more useful in late game dungeons? Dealing between 10-15 damage is not that nice, when you have Fighter McGavin next to you, that looks at opponents and they die.

..And the trap we got at the moment is nice and all, but they aren't that useful once you hit later levels, I must admit. Even more so, considering you dont get experience when things die upon them. Just some food for thought, as they say.

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Iceborn
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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by Iceborn » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:23 pm

The update to the rogues gave them a lot of fluff. That was nice.
But it didn't solve their main issue: Against anything that has sneak immunity, they gonne or they are virtually useless.

Honestly, main-rogue characters should have their sneak d6s turn into d3s against sneak-immune targets. At least.
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Hunter548
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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by Hunter548 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:26 pm

Not possible without haks, as far as I know. Unfortunately.
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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by Wytchee » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:29 pm

Scaling piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage against sneak immune? It was possible for barbarian (not against sneak immune, but still).
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msterswrdsmn
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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by msterswrdsmn » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:01 pm

Some advice based on my experiences with high-sneak damage characters?

Use traps to weaken tougher opponents (not kill them outright) then smack them around when they're at injured/badly wounded. If your AB is high enough, grab a couple bronze weapons and use flame weapon+temp essences when you're straight out not able to deal any significant physical damage. If you can find a bless weapon scroll/wand crafter, grab as many as you can reasonably carry.

If you have a few skillpoints to spare (an enchanter to give you +2 skill gear helps as well) take a few token ranks in craft traps. Deadly tangle traps (35 DC and slow), fire traps (alchemist fire is easy to find/buy) and holy traps (easy to mass produce and undead are one of the main sneak-immune offenders on Arelith) are going to be what I mass produce most of the time. Electric traps require quartz, which -can- be difficult to get in bulk if you don't know where to look (super cheap if you do).

All the other traps are just garbage. Spike, sonic, negative, frost, gas and acid splash traps have terrible DC's ( 15 to 20) so even low level enemies have a good chance of making their saving throw, negating the special effects. Of all of those, spike traps are the only ones with reasonable damage (with a whooping dc of 15) and can be used to eat damage shields like premonition up, but the prevelance of evasion/imp evasion means a LOT of what you run into can and will just simply ignore them. Acid blob traps are amazing, but can't be crafted and are probably the hardest trap type to consistantly find.
Last edited by msterswrdsmn on Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hunter548
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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by Hunter548 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:02 pm

Yeah, not making it only happen vs sneak immune things, as far as I know.

That said, what mobs are giving you trouble OP? With the new rogue grenades I wouldn't think undead or constructs would be problematic, and aside from dragons can't think of anything sneak immune that's hugely prevalent at epics anyways.
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ForgottenBhaal
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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by ForgottenBhaal » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:05 pm

The cloakers, the illithids, the beholders, (Mourn.. But as you said, the grenades. Kinda expensive solution though.) And dragons are sneak immune, yup.. And both Red dragon isle and the temple place has dragons as end bosses.

Im also pretty sure the juggernaut is immune to sneak attacks.

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Richørd
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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by Richørd » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:50 pm

I may sound like a jerk saying this but ...
... deal with it. Your class has other strengths and this is not World of Warcraft where every class has to be good at almost everything.

To explain : I am still amazed about how much rogues can do on Arelith, especially high level rogues seem to be insanely fun with all the tools, increased sneaking speed, the increased HP pools and so on.
I am currently playing a pure martial character (without rogue levels,so no UMD. honestly screw that metaslave foolery with everyone running around at 3 rogue levels) and I always envy rogues / bards just for the fact that they are able to use so many things that have restrictions on them. Let's not even get started on being overall usefull with disabling traps, opening locks, being able to scout ahead. Overall great RP potential just because of what your class can do ...

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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by rookie » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:26 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:02 pm
Yeah, not making it only happen vs sneak immune things, as far as I know.
From a coding standpoint could Improved Sneak Attack be changed slightly? For example have Improved Sneak Attack I and III grant +1d6 damage always instead of sneak attack damage, while II and IV+ grant +1d6 sneak as per normal? Not saying that would be a balanced idea, was just thinking of a method to boost high sneak attack investment.

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Opustus
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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by Opustus » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:04 pm

From a design perspective, I agree with Richörd.

However, if something should be done about it, I would first look at balancing the monsters rather than the class itself. Changing the mechanics of SA would affect other balance, such as Palemaster and Dwarven defender sneak immunity.
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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by Sab1 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:05 pm

Rogues are fun and their new tools are not hard to get . I have 20 exploding holy waters on me and I have yet to make one. They are just from drops. Like any class there are going to be things rogues excel against and things they struggle against. As I discovered while doing writs, rogues can be frustrating since many of those writs as a mostly rogue character I was not going to be able to try alone. But they can do so many things, I don't see an issue with needing help.

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Cortex
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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by Cortex » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:42 pm

On top of my mind, with the anti-golem/undead grenades which make rogues absurdly strong vs them, the only noteworthy sneak immune enemies are illithids, beholders and dragons.

Edit: And I think dragons could do without the sneak attack immunity, rogues already have a hard time staying on their feet against the wing buffets.
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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by Sockss » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:10 pm

Because of grenades, rogues are probably the strongest vs constructs and ~5th to undead (After the Cleric/Druid/Wiz/Sorc, because they get Wall of Fire).

Big AC, Epic dodge and a big parry skill helps a whole bunch against anything else.

The only thing they lack is saves, but as long as you're careful and tote the right buffs, you can solo pretty much anything.
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Jagel
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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by Jagel » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:24 am

Slightly off (ok way off) topic but the title of this thread gives me the delightful image of late game dungeons seeking out rogues to conquer

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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by Sab1 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:07 pm

Duergar Thralls for some reason are sneak immune. Not sure if rest of the thralls are but, I saw the immune to sneak message from a duergar one I was trying to stab.

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Re: Late game dungeons versus the rogue

Post by Fionn » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:23 pm

Jagel wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:24 am
Slightly off (ok way off) topic but the title of this thread gives me the delightful image of late game dungeons seeking out rogues to conquer
That's my thoughts. Cordor Crypts can be done without a decent Rogue, but it's a LOT harder. I'm totally fine with finding a good Barb to hide behind vs Dragons. If a change is needed, I'd urge more areas (and writs) that ensure the Barb will also be seeking out a Rogue.
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