Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

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Disciprine Come From Within
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Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Disciprine Come From Within » Mon May 07, 2018 1:01 pm

Alright, I'm going to start with this in a way that I know is going to get the torches and pitchforks out for some people, but NWN's magic system has always felt "off" compared to it's D&D counterpart. Weird, since most of the spells are directly replicated in the system, including their damage caps. But, this is where I am going to argue that many of those caps are too low to do the spells justice in Arelith.

I'll start with a classic example. Fireball. 3rd level spell for Wizards and Sorcerers. Caps out at level 10 for both at 10d6 fire damage or an average of around 35 damage in an AoE that is not party friendly. You won't find this spell cast much past level 10. It will be replaced with buffs like Greater Magic Weapon or Haste, single target spells like Flame Arrow, and Debuff or Control spells like Negative Energy Burst, Slow, or Stinking Cloud.

This isn't to say that there aren't options for level 3 spell slots. There are. But the classic example, a fireball won't be one of them. The damage is too low by the time it reaches level 10 for what you face that you will be drawn to other options. It's even worse for the level 1 spells like Burning Hands, or Ice Dagger that cap by level 5, or spells like Negative Energy Ray, Horizikaul's boom, or Magic Missile that cap by level 9 but share a similar die roll of 5d4-5d6.

Eventually you move into the higher level spells and you forget about the cap problem again once you get Firebrand which caps out at level 15 for 15d6 or an average of around 53 damage. It's one of the spells that will be maximized for 90 damage to several targets. Forgotten to this will be a similar damage spell that is not party friendly. Cone of Cold. Higher up at level 6 will be Chain Lightning that will go underused because while a single target takes a whopping 20d6 damage at most, everything else is only taking 10d6, which will be less effective than ball lightning since it functions similarly to firebrand now. Even higher up at level 7 you have Prismatic Spray and Delayed Blast Fireball. Prismatic Spray will be avoided because it is not party friendly. Delayed Blast Fireball will go unused because while it does do more damage that Firebrand, it consumes spell components and cannot be maximized, only empowered and has a smaller range You would be better off using Wall of Fire for the same job, especially on undead. Finally you get to Meteor Swarm which was thankfully uncapped all the way to 30 and damage raised to a d8, allowing a fun average of 135 damage AoE if you bothered to go the full 30 caster levels.

There are similar issues as well on the Cleric/Druid lists. The Cure/Inflict spells cap out so dramatically at low level. Sound Burst is only good for stunning, Hammer of the Gods caps out at 5d8 at level 10. Flame Strike caps at 15 but divides it's damage types. Flame Lash at best does 66 damage maximized to a single target. Quillfire is never worth casting due to the poison DC being capped at 18. Bombardment even with it's KD effect is a fairly weak spell due to it's 10d6 cap.

The fun of having a spellbook is having all the options end up having a situational use. There are so many spells that don't fill that role and need something to make that happen. Other spells like Wall of Fire have benefited greatly from changes but there are so many others that also need a little love.

I've said my part and I'm open to those torches and pitchforks now.

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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Cortex » Mon May 07, 2018 1:32 pm

Same can be said for weapon tiers, iron, steel, bronze, you don't see them used past their level ranges.
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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Xuuldar » Mon May 07, 2018 4:14 pm

Honestly, I get what you are saying but the thing is, unless you are playing a True Flame, your limited spell slots are much better served for buffs and crowd control than damage. In a group as a wizard I don't think I have ever cast a fireball. Why blow one of my few spell slots to do a little damage when the melee can do unlimited damage. I generally sit in the back keeping the melee buffed, occasionally casting a disable to better manage the battle if it's going bad and very occasionally tossing out a save or die spell when the battle is going very bad. Aside from that I just toss out magic missiles at things that are mostly killed by the melee before they actually land. It's really the disparity between NWN and PnP, in PnP you have a limited number of encounters between rests so your spells are a better bang for your buck. It might just be how I play but as a limited resource caster, be it wizard, cleric, druid, etc, I look at my job more as battle manager and not damage dealer. If I want to play a damage dealer I play a melee or a warlock/True Flame that has the resources to continually toss out damage.

Now for a True Flame where slots are not an issue, I will say that though fireball yields less damage, it is still a very useful and used spell as it has a much greater range than a firebrand, usually you can toss out a quickened and or maximized fireball at long range then switch to firebrand as they head towards you.

It's really about the right tool for the job, and though there are some spells which are really not very useful, range, damage, damage type, and slots available are all factors which determined what you use. But along with what cortex said, no matter what class you are, as you get new and improved weapons (whether that is melee weapons or spells) the old ones become less useful. At least from a caster perspective due to not having unlimited uses, most spells don't get completely useless like a bronze or iron weapon would.

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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Disciprine Come From Within » Mon May 07, 2018 6:08 pm

I've always found the weapon to magic comparison doesn't do a fair shake as they are apples to oranges. Weapon upgrades don't make or break damage in the same way and some spells either always have a use for their level, or lose that use quickly, or never were worth using at all. Also, you don't get a sword that only crits for 6 attacks per rest. It's a different system entirely.

And while I am also fond of the myriad of ways that arcane casters can disable targets, the reason I didn't bring them up is because option-wise, most of them are very good. Only exceptions IMO would be Acid Fog for it's low damage and no natural stun effect and Incendiary Cloud for basically being a saveless Darkness blind that barely pings for damage. They are great with other spells, but really kind of blow alone. But so many spellslots get dedicated away from those low level damage spells because they never pull enough weight damage-wise. The point of wizards are to serve as flexible fill-ins with their spellbook. And that feature is hampered when there are options that should be worth casting but aren't. Similarly, sorcerers are hurt for every spell that doesn't do it's job that they take. But those options should feel like they are worth something. If they aren't ever worth use, that's a problem.

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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Xuuldar » Mon May 07, 2018 6:39 pm

Melee to magic is very much apples to oranges in most cases but in this case, I feel like they are much closer to each other. Sure on a single hit an extra couple damage going from Bronze to say masterly steel but factor in the extra to hit turning some misses into damage, then factor in that it is a few damage per hit over what is going to be thousands of hits over the course of an adventure and it becomes much more significant. In this case as you level as a melee you get new improved weapons that replace your old weapons, for casters it's very similar. As you level and get higher level spells, you get new spells that are more powerful and replace the old one. Now you can and will likely cast the lower level spells due to your limited amount of slots but if a 3rd level fireball scaled and was as powerful as a 5th level firebrand of a 9th level Meteor swarm, then it would take away the importance of those higher level spells. Also, you are going to get more lower level slots than higher level slots so it only makes sense that they be less powerful.

It's not just damage spells, look at Ghostly Visage. Its a great spell but Ethereal visage is the higher level upgrade. Once you have Ethereal visage, you would cast that and no longer need ghostly visage. If Ghostly visage scaled up to be as good as Ethereal Visage, then Ethereal visage would become pointless.

Again though, I feel that if you are worried about damage enough that fireball not scaling to higher damage than it does currently is a big issue, you are probably playing the wrong class for the playstyle you are looking for.

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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Iceborn » Mon May 07, 2018 8:54 pm

Cortex wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 1:32 pm
Same can be said for weapon tiers, iron, steel, bronze, you don't see them used past their level ranges.
Comparing melee to spells.
What.



Regarding the post, I do agree that there are some spells that simply lose their use by some points and that simply are never used again... which is not something that I like; if it was up for me, all the spells would retain some simple functionality, even if it's not what you would originally use them for.

And then there are spells that are never used to begin with.
It's a lot of work, but probably somebody will look at some of the spells and figure how to make them not lame.
I mean, most of the druid spells got a badly needed rework, so it may just be a matter of time.
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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Cortex » Mon May 07, 2018 9:01 pm

The fundamentals are the same.

You level up, you unlock upgrades for your class.
:)

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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by JediMindTrix » Mon May 07, 2018 9:43 pm

Ehh, spells of all levels ideally retain use at all levels. Weapons are traded out because the next tier is demonstrably more useful than the last in everyway that matters.

That said, Flame Arrow is useful for knocking out spell mantles in mage duels.
Ghostly Visage can be extended to far longer duration than an extended Ethereal Visage.

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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon May 07, 2018 10:15 pm

Would be much cooler to see casters unlock alternative uses for spells at higher levels. We see some of this with the Sleep spell changes. I.e. level 26 evoker casting Lightning Bolt might have a 10% chance to trigger a will save or be dazed. Maybe not even that mechanically nuanced. Invisibility lasts 2x as long if you've ESF Illusion and 27 caster level.

Probably super difficult and time-consuming to do, with balance implications to do. (Or, you lock spell variation behind pure class requirements and Spell School specializations)

Something Coar said long ago is that the problem with NWN and spellcasting is not the power of spells, it's the the fact power is concentrated into a very small pool of "must-have magic" that eliminates player choice. The balancing act in PnP of spellcasters is that diversity breeds choice, and sometimes casters make the bad choices. If spellcasters had to make tough decisions on what to prepare, because there was power in more spells, you'd arguably see more counterplay and diversity.

The problem with "scaling" magic is that it is just ANOTHER thing mundane builds miss out on. Capping damage from spells shouldn't be the way to go. We need to think of more lateral progression instead.
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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Hunter548 » Tue May 08, 2018 1:23 am

The problem with damage spells is that they scale extremely inefficiently in 3.x D&D. No one is impressed by fireball, and no one has been since 2e because of how the damage scales compared to enemy HP. Damage spells in general just sort of suck outside of the realm of IGMS (In NWN) and Disintegrate (In PnP) because they actually do enough damage to be useful.

If you want to make damage spells useful, that's what the metric is. No one's going to be impressed by a max'd firebrand at level 15, when there's a decent chance the monster will make a reflex save, and you get more damage by hasting the local melee character (Or mass hasting the party or w/e).

You can argue about whether this should or shouldn't be the case, but changing it would involve reworking how the entire magic system work (Boost blasting spells damage, and making disable or buff spells less efficient), but I don't know if you'd actually get more variety, so much as changing what the best choice is. Alternating what's good and what isn't is pretty shoddy balance.
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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Tourmaline » Tue May 08, 2018 3:45 am

It's a headache inducing question.

I think most damage spells are kind of pointless. Except the infinite cast greater spell focus spells, which, since they don't take a slot, can be fired off endlessly even if chance of success is low. But I don't prepare too many damaging spells aside from the guarantee-to-hit missile spells. Maybe if summons weren't so good, it would be a different story, but having summons do most of your damage seems the only viable way for an Arelith wizard to function.

Disabling spells that linger are a little better at least for PVE. But with something like confusion, at the level when it would really help you, you can't cast it more than once or twice without taking slots you really need for something else. By the time you can comfortably throw a few around most things you face will make the save.

The spell component system doesn't help here either. If a high level damage or disabling spell you can only cast once has a low chance of success, either because the chance of failing saves is low or because the damage isn't worth the trouble, I'm not going to waste three spell component charges.

But I don't know what to do about any of this, not without going back to something like the weavemaster where a failed spell doesn't mean you can't cast it again until the next drunken rest. Maybe if there were expensive ways to jack up magic damage and DCs when you're casting spells you really want to land?

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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Void » Tue May 08, 2018 5:32 am

Xuuldar wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 4:14 pm
Honestly, I get what you are saying but the thing is, unless you are playing a True Flame, your limited spell slots are much better served for buffs and crowd control than damage.
Yup. And true flame allows you to play the classic laughing pyrmoniac lunatic. It is fun.
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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Tue May 08, 2018 4:01 pm

Some of the more interesting D&D rules are the optional ones. Like damage to carried equipment when struck by spells.

Potions carried might freeze or boil or their bottles shatter; clothing and armour might ignite etc. Such things give magic, what I call a "wince factor". As a DM, in the dim and distant past, I always favoured the "wince factor".

Whilst this is somewhat of a hardcore rule, I would like to see it incorporated on Arelith. i.e It could be -- it is not how much damage magic does that makes folks sit up and notice -- it is how volatile and reactive it might / could be.

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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by TimeAdept » Tue May 08, 2018 5:45 pm

durability should be removed, not added to by making fireballs destroy adamantine plate.

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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue May 08, 2018 5:45 pm

I think something to consider is absolving casters from friendly fire. In PnP, AoE is tactical and legible. In NWN, radius and AoE is super difficult to determine. I bet you'd see more icestorms and fireballs if casters weren't afraid of accidentally killing party members.
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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Hunter548 » Tue May 08, 2018 6:10 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 5:45 pm
I think something to consider is absolving casters from friendly fire. In PnP, AoE is tactical and legible. In NWN, radius and AoE is super difficult to determine. I bet you'd see more icestorms and fireballs if casters weren't afraid of accidentally killing party members.
No, you wouldn't, because there'd still be a non-negligible chance that instead of preparing a haste or a slow or some other spell, you throw out that fireball and do 35 damage to four-five monsters who have 150 each.

The problem with damage spells is how shittily they scale compared to other options. The problem isn't aiming (Aiming a fireball is pretty easy with a very small amount of practice) but opportunity cost; Fireball sucks even when you don't roast your party, and haste/stinking cloud/slow all contribute vastly more.


Edit: Even in PnP, where you can "AoE is tactical and legible", casting fireball is a waste of both your spellslot and your action for that turn. I've been playing 3.x games for like 12 years and have never, the entire time, seen someone cast fireball as anything other than DM fiat'd "Okay, you'll set the grease on fire and kill everyone in it instantly" type things.
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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Void » Wed May 09, 2018 2:44 am

Tathkar Eisgrim wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 4:01 pm
Whilst this is somewhat of a hardcore rule, I would like to see it incorporated on Arelith. i.e It could be -- it is not how much damage magic does that makes folks sit up and notice -- it is how volatile and reactive it might / could be.
If spells could affect durability, then a single true flame would be able to make the whole island naked.

I think arelith wasn't supposed to be THAT kind of game.
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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Wed May 09, 2018 4:24 am

NegInfinity wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 2:44 am
Tathkar Eisgrim wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 4:01 pm
Whilst this is somewhat of a hardcore rule, I would like to see it incorporated on Arelith. i.e It could be -- it is not how much damage magic does that makes folks sit up and notice -- it is how volatile and reactive it might / could be.
If spells could affect durability, then a single true flame would be able to make the whole island naked.

I think arelith wasn't supposed to be THAT kind of game.
Well, I only mentioned durability. Not outright destruction. Such a system could be nuanced to only be able to reduce armours / clothing items to one charge, a 'badly damaged' state.

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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Void » Wed May 09, 2018 5:06 am

Tathkar Eisgrim wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 4:24 am
Well, I only mentioned durability. Not outright destruction. Such a system could be nuanced to only be able to reduce armours / clothing items to one charge, a 'badly damaged' state.
That's roughly the same thing.

Damage to equipment happens at very random moments, so for any class that uses any equipment, having equipment reduced to 1 would mean "it is time to RUN". Because, for example, shooting your bow can somehow damage your boots. Happens all the time.

Overall the spirit of idea resembles multiple "survival" games which have equipment destruction and even drop on death. In practice it adds great deal of annoyance to the gameplay and does not make it more fun.

As a side effect, it might turn "Dungeon and Dragons" into "Monks versus Mages". Or something like that.
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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Disciprine Come From Within » Wed May 09, 2018 5:22 am

I'm inclined to agree that having anything mess with the durability system with magic would be a terrible idea. Losing equipment due to damage would be a fate worse than character death as far as time and investment.

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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Durvayas » Thu May 10, 2018 5:42 am

I think a point that isn't being addressed is that on Arelith, the mobs generally have ridiculously high saves, so the lion's share of spells are either useless the level they are unlocked, or a 50% gambit at best.

Fireball is a good example. Everything has too much HP for it to be dangerous. Not to be that guy, but Arelith has always stood out for me as "That server where PvE is silly". Where the skeleton warriors in a lvl 2-3 zone have like 40-50HP, and it only gets worse as you scale higher. If the community were not so large, and the RP so compelling, this server would not be my first choice because I don't play here for the PvE experience.

Whats more, in addition to having high HP across the board, Arelith's spawns have saves that soar into the stratosphere from midlevels and up. This pushes everyone into taking 'necessary' saveless spells, IGMS being the most famous example. Ice storm being another good one because even if the save is passed, the target still takes damage. Grease because of its utility even if the save is passed, etc. If a spell has any save that can be passed and just shrugged off, post lvl 10, thats going to be the norm. The only classes where this isn't an issue are the infinicasters, because they don't have to worry about the spell economy. Frankly, they're also part of why the scores are pumped up so high. Vancian casters need to worry about saves.

Because of high saves, only, say... 12 spells(at best) are actually useful offensively. After a certain point, you start relegating your lower slots to buffing, because everything at your level is completely, if not effectively, immune to the damage spells of those circles.
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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by -XXX- » Thu May 10, 2018 6:12 am

Flame arrow is a direct damage spell that doesn't have a cap. This is mitigated by its arguably slower scaling when compared to other direct damage spells, but as a result it also remains actually somewhat viable even after reaching certain level /as opposed to the majority of other direct damage spells that become borderline useless past certain point in the charcter's level progression/.

I know that it's a lot of work, but maybe removing the damage caps from spells and altering their damage output scaling during lvl progression might be worthwhile.

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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by telmarael » Thu May 24, 2018 6:27 pm

I've had the same issue with a spellbook of caster classes when I first started playing a casting class on a PW. Found an answer for myself already - don't mess with the spellbook. One wrong step, and the whole thing goes down a very, very wrong way. here, actually, you can use quite a lot of spells you've got, excluding some obvious DC oriented dmg dealing spells. I've played on servers where saves are put SO high because of casters being dominant in every sphere of gameplay, that every sorcerer\mage used spells like vampiric touch, combustion and arcane arrow line ONLY. And still succeeded at some things, lol. Please, lets not prod the wasp hive.

Although certain spell schools (hello, necro buffs when?) need some sweet attenton, the system is as it is, no need breaking it.

Oh, and the very same server had a very specific thing implemented that made a certain spell-school of choice more viable through specializing it (yes, from character creation). The class was called Master Specialist, and unlocked new, powerful features ONLY for your spell school of choice through leveling. The class gave the full CL bonus, and still gave the wizard spell slots normally. That would be nice, and a much better trade off than the current shadow mage. Seven Sons of Sin has mentioned some spell-specific tweaking upon a certain power threshold, that reminded me of Master Specialist. Due to the out-of-Snuggybear high saves of everything, and the fact that only dispels were useful enough in pvp, only abjuration specialists were used, nonetheless the whole thing had a big potential.
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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sun May 27, 2018 4:44 am

Cortex wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 9:01 pm
The fundamentals are the same.

You level up, you unlock upgrades for your class.
I disagree. Weapons and spells are not comparable. I would like to see spells scale, the same as a level 30 WM build with an iron longsword is more effective than a level 3 with an iron longsword.

Spells like fireball, lightning bolt, things like that are CLASSICS and it's a real shame there is no use for them on Arelith without it being a huge waste of a spellslot. I'm not saying we should make them crazy powerful, but raising the damage cap to have spells scale with level more appropriately would be a good idea. It would bring diversity to what mages have prepared instead of always picking the handful of 'good' spells.

Who doesn't want to see more fireballs and lightning bolts flying around? They're awesome. Even in this old game, they look great! Pew pew!

Enabling friendly-fire for party members with such spells would make it so the caster needs to practice firing at the right range/angle and that can be a very fun skill to practice and master.
Durvayas wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 5:42 am
Because of high saves, only, say... 12 spells(at best) are actually useful offensively. After a certain point, you start relegating your lower slots to buffing, because everything at your level is completely, if not effectively, immune to the damage spells of those circles.
I couldn't agree more with this point. I've never been a fan of the ridiculous saving throws Arelith has all over. It affects the game in so many ways than just what spells are selected. I believe it's a large reason for the amount of powerbuilds, too.. but off-topic.
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Re: Damage Caps For Magic (Feedback and Discussion)

Post by Sab1 » Mon May 28, 2018 6:59 pm

For me that's why you unlock more powerful spell circles so you don't have to rely on those low lvl spells. You unlock more powerful and better spells. So expect a fireball to be as potent at lvl 30 makes nosense when there person has better spells to pick from.

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