RE: Sibayad

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CragOrion
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RE: Sibayad

Post by CragOrion » Fri May 04, 2018 10:18 pm

Irongron wrote:- Sibayad moved to the Distant Shores server, to reflect the fact that is no longer considered part of the Arelith Archipelago.
It's not?

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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by Irongron » Fri May 04, 2018 11:23 pm

I was never happy with it being so, as it is heavily different thematically, so this is something of a lore adjustment.

Skal is far closer to Moonshae, and Sibayad to Calimshan, and as we make a series of updates to Sibayad I hope to clarify its geographical/politican positioning.

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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by CragOrion » Sat May 05, 2018 1:57 pm

So we're expanding outside the Trackless Sea? I dunno, I think there's problems that come along with that. I think removing Skal and Sibayad from the archipelego also removes their relevance to Arelith itself. Wouldn't it be simpler to explain the drasticly different climates another way?

Sibayad could have been home to a catastrophic event that turned it into a dune-filled wasteland. That was actually my initial impression of the place the first time I came across that shipwreck in the middle of the dessert. And the source of the cold in Skal could be more magical in nature, perhaps something along the lines of what keeps it from snowing in neverwinter, but kinda the opposite.

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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by Ork » Sat May 05, 2018 3:09 pm

That's all still in the trackless sea.

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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by CragOrion » Sat May 05, 2018 5:50 pm

After looking at a map, I guess I thought Calamshan was a little further east. Still, it sounds like he's saying its closer to calamshan than arelith, and I'd make the same argument about relevance for anything that's not part of the archipelego. If Skal and Sibayad aren't part of Arelith's geographical region (the archipelego) then why would anyone on arelith ever care about what happens there more than any other place on the mainland? Or Lantan for that matter? And why would anybody from skal or sibayad care about what happens on arelith more than any other place like the moonshaes or lantan or calamshan. If those two places are going to have any kind of arelithian influence on them, I don't think it would make any sense for them to be very far from it. Its more likely that the closest established civilization would have the most influence on them.

I still think its easier to find an explanation for the different climate than it is to move them out of the archipelego lorewise

EDIT: Still looking at maps, and Calamshan seems more surrounded by the Shining Sea, and the Trackless Sea doesn't seem to start until you get out past Lantan. And Lantan is still quite a ways out away from Calamshan
Maps I'm looking at are:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/for ... 0201174035
https://pre00.deviantart.net/439e/th/pr ... b2v3ho.jpg
https://markustay.deviantart.com/art/Fo ... -721963342

(maybe it would help to get it illistrated on a map exactly where arelith, skal, and sibayad are supposed to be?)
Also, if Sibayad is so close to Calamshan, then it doesn't make sense to be able to reach it by ferry at any time you want. It should be just as hard or almost just as hard to get to as Skal is

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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by Ork » Sat May 05, 2018 6:43 pm

Trackless sea is the whole Western coastline of Faerun. The Shining Sea is similar to the real world mediterranean where it is only the portion of water contained between Calimshan's southern coastline and Chult's northern coastline.

However, Arelith has always been presumed to be slightly Southwest of Moonshae. It makes sense that there are islands North of Arelith (Skal) and islands South of Arelith (Sibayad).

I'm assuming (and correct me if I'm wrong, Irongron) but Sibayad is at the same latitude as Calimshan but near the same longitude of Arelith.
Last edited by Ork on Sat May 05, 2018 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by TimeAdept » Sat May 05, 2018 6:44 pm

CragOrion wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 1:57 pm
Sibayad could have been home to a catastrophic event that turned it into a dune-filled wasteland.
This technically did happen, when the agreement between Jiharu Kusama and the Gatekeeper sank Zanshibon into the Abyss, but I don't know how much of that lore was changed/retconned - it seems more like now it doomed a specific city on the island of Sibayad, which is now named Zanshibon, rather than dooming an entire desert island - the entire island, of which, happened to be named Zanshibon.

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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by CragOrion » Sun May 06, 2018 1:47 pm

Ork wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 6:43 pm
Trackless sea is the whole Western coastline of Faerun.
I think you're thinking of the Sea of Swords

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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by Ork » Sun May 06, 2018 4:50 pm

CragOrion wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 1:47 pm
Ork wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 6:43 pm
Trackless sea is the whole Western coastline of Faerun.
I think you're thinking of the Sea of Swords
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Trackless_Sea

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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by CragOrion » Sun May 06, 2018 6:44 pm

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Trackless_Sea wrote:The Trackless Sea ran from the Sea of Swords in the west to Maztica, where it was known as Taylola, the Eastern Ocean, and Anchorome in the east.[citation needed] The sea also spanned north to the Sea of Moving Ice and south to the peninsula of Chult.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sea_of_Swords wrote:The Sea of Swords separates the western coast of Faerûn from the Nelanther Isles, the Moonshaes, Evermeet, Lantan and the further off areas of Abeir-Toril such as Maztica.
This would put the Sea of Swords solidly between the Trackless Sea and Calamshan, which is my point. If Sibayad is so close to Calamshan that it explains cultural influence and climate, then it would have to be in the Sea of Swords, on the other side of Lantan. And being so far from Arelith's archipelego would remove whatever relevance Sibayad had to Arelith. The only thing that might mitigate that is if it was a major stop on a trade route to Arelith, but even then, travel time to and from Arelith and Sibayad would be hugely increased.

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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by Nitro » Mon May 07, 2018 1:14 am

It's not important where Arelith is, it's never been explicit anyway. Just a distinction that Sibayad is separate from the main archipelago, but still somewhere nearby. Could be closer to lantan than Calimsham, could be a geographical oddity brought on by the fiendish influence on the isle.

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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by CragOrion » Mon May 07, 2018 3:21 am

It IS important where Arelith is in relation to the other two islands if we're to believe realistically that any one of these three places is relevant in any way to the other, because every place accessible on our servers should be relevant to Arelith in some way. And if Sibayad is closer to Lantan than Calamshan, then that defeats the purpose of Irongron ret-conning the location to address it's different theme.

My point is ultimately, there are better ways to address this drastically different theme. You can even say that Sibayad was settled by Calashites without changing its geographical location. Anything is possible in writing if you're creative enough. But one of the biggest rules in collaborative entertainment (whether its improv, or writing, or tv episodes) is that you don't ever say "no, that didn't happen" or that anything that came before isn't true or never happened, unless what you're talking about is extremely world-breaking, like say Highlander 2, X-Men 3, or Star Wars: Last Jedi. Doing that is jarring, stressing, unimmersive, and painful for your audience/co-writers, and should be avoided if at all possible.

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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by Hannibal » Mon May 07, 2018 4:24 am

It's relevant because Arelithians live there.

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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon May 07, 2018 6:00 am

You're blowing this a bit out of proportion. Irongron is an experienced worldbuilder, and I'm fully confident that he's not gonna make Sibayad into something radically different than it has always been. The fact is that Sibayad's position has always been nebulously defined, so what we're getting is a clarification more than anything.
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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by Iceborn » Mon May 07, 2018 6:50 am

I've always been a super huge fan of Sibayad and its place in the module, and all the little additions it's got over the years.

There's only one thing that I find weird about this: The retcon to move it to Distant Shores.
Now, server jumping is a necessary mechanic, though a very annoying one for mages. Granted, we have plenty more players and we should fill Distant Shores a little to keep the servers evened in population, but...

I don't find much sense in the lore change for the island to be stupid far away. Specially with the way players have always treated boat travel. At best, travelling by boat is something that takes a few IC hours, and not days or weeks. Regardless of the time it takes, the vast majority of players will always RP these sort of 'cutscene teleports' as just as brief intermission, that very rarely disturbs their RP.

Yeah, it doesn't make much geographical sense to have a big Snuggybear desert island a stone throw away from Arelith, but it makes even less sense to assume that players are going to put a pause to what they are doing to acknowledge the actual distance of Sibayad. Nor from an IC point of view it makes sense to spend days or weeks to go to the desert island when time is something that can be so important to characters that are supposed to have responsibilities.

Or am I measuring the distance wrong? How long do you think it'd take ICly to get from Arelith/Sibayad by boat?
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Re: RE: Sibayad

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon May 07, 2018 10:09 pm

It's actually really cool to see the "Arelithian archipelago" expand to include stuff in the Trackless. I always wanted more integration with actual Faerun. It makes more sense in Arelith's history than ever before. Cordor has been around for as many in-game years as Canada. There should be broader tensions and sensibilities about Arelith's communities and continental Faerun.

One of my favourite emerging tropes is Arelithian consciousness and people playing born-and-bred Arelithans (Bendirians, dwarves, elves, and others) and telling adventurers to gtfo and stop ruining the island.

So Sibayad and Skal being more "Trackless" aligned than "Arelith" aligned is an exciting step in Arelithian lore. Opens up to a lot of possibilities.
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